what is the Taubman technique for playing octaves, if not with wrist rebound?

Are you kidding me?

First of all, who in the world wouldn't consider themselves advanced after learning those? One does not learn them and still refer to him- or her-self as an intermediate player after such pieces.

Secondly, anyone can say they've learned said pieces. It's the internet.

To that point, even if you COULD play them, what in the world do you know about piano pedagogy? All your claims are, again, not backed by anything.

Here's what you do:

"HEY EVERYONE, DID YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU EAT DOG MEAT, YOU'LL TURN INTO A UNICORN? IT'S BEEN PROVEN.

...uh, who proved it?

IT'S JUST BEEN PROVEN. LET ME RESTATE IT FOR YOU."

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and as such, I agree: you've done her a disservice by posting this thread, "genius."

Have fun.

Nice youtubevideo... sure, there are good pianists out there..

This guy uses a lot of Taubman principles in his playing, especially the supported wrist and he does rotation on his chords. He has excessive elbow flaring, which is unnatural and a wasted motion, but doesn't effect the sound...

I may get around to making a video... it really proves nothing actually..

What Taubman does is take the best elements of piano playing, some of which are practiced already by great pianists,... it takes these elements, breaks them down, analyzes them, and then teaches them..

There is no give in the wrist at all with the Taubman technique, preserving both sound and the playing mechanism...

With traditional technique, the wrist breaks or snaps --> CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME.

I might be advanced, but I prefer to remain HUMBLE...

Secondly, I'm not lying, but feel free to think so..

Thirdly, I have studied traditional pedagogy and also Taubman, so I know both worlds..

You however, only know one world (traditional)... so I know more then you..

Also, I can prove to you that finger isolation is bad.

Wiggle your wrist.. ok? Now press your finger straight down as traditional piano lessons advocate, and try to wriggle your wrist. Feel the tension?

Now, lift your finger rotationally, and wriggle your wrist? Tension in your hand? No..

Game, set, Match..

KP is certainly stepping in to take the place of the dearly departed kbk and Nyir.

I've been playing professionally for decades, 4 hour gigs, sometimes 2 such gigs a day, and have no such injuries, and I only heard about the Taubman technique a few years ago.

You are probably using Taubman principles, but not realizing it...

Yup - and even more valuable as a comment since you also learned Taubman.

Terms like "traditional pedagogy" -- in other words - generalizations -- sound a lot like Nyir.

However, KP can't be a sock since this would be opposite from Nyir's point view.

The only way I can really PROVE to you that this technique is better is by comparing 2 ways of doing things..

Lets pick a difficult passage from a piece... I will analyze it for you:

1. The way tradition says to play this
2. The way Taubman says

Then we can get into the details..

But that's just the point, "what is traditional". We can't even get people here to agree on that.

Just look at the first two bars of Chopin Etude 10/1.

We've had tremenduous discussion here on playing it flat, moving wrists, rotation, no-rotation, finger-leading, hand-leading. So there -- give it a shot.

Just don't get banned since the topic tends to lead into that direction.

EDIT - And this is a good one for Taubman since playing this incorrectly CAN lead to injury.

So you mean Chopin Etude op 10. no. 1.. ? Let me check it out..

Just tell me the guidelines of what I'm allowed to say so I don't get banned..

What will get me banned? Are we not allowed to give technique advice here?

Wrong, because I have investigated Taubman. There might be some overlap, but my background is Hanon exercises, etudes, and hours and hours of practice, etc, all the things you put down:

LOL. Just be nice and you will not get banned. Your topic heading is a bit extreme and if you don't know that, we'll just watch the fistfights along the way.

Pretty simple. 2 bars of Op 10 No. 1.

When people undergo a Paulian conversion, as KP clearly has, they often become the most strident proselytizers, smothering you with their evangelical zeal.

I've been studying with a Taubman teacher for 6 years now and I am quite happy with my progress, but I would never say that the Taubman approach is the only correct way to play the piano. In fact there are some things in it that I question. In those cases I try to seek answers through experimentation, logic, reading, and talking to other people as I did in this thread regarding double rotations.

Well I'm glad you didn't get injured... I haven't seen your technique, so i can't really comment..

Its possible to jam your fingers and hands into all sorts of unnatural positions and inefficient motions and play just fine..

People have different thresholds of endurance and physical ability..

You might be bending or twisting your wrist, putting strain on your fingers, having bad posture, and your body is fine with it..

Most of the Taubman students followed the inefficient path, but eventually their bodies broke down..

I pray yours never does, but I'm trying to help those who are just starting out and posting threads like "I can't play this passage without feeling pain" or "I wanna quit, I'm not improving"..

Playing Hanon just reinforces whatever technique you already have.. it will create nervous system pathways that get hammered in through repetition.. but that doesn't mean the way you are moving is healthy..

In other words, George Burns smoked for 99 years and was fine, that doesn't mean smoking is good for you.

You were probably questioning if "double rotation" can be done fast enough..

yes, it can..

This is completely wrong. Hanon, and other technique disicplines, develop technique.

Who? What technique? Not another one. I swear every thing in this world is one mans opinion from another.

Ok, I solved these 2 bars in about a few minutes:

- Traditional pedagogy says play the C-octave with the LH, then play 1245 in the RH...

Can you say OUCH!!

Going from 4 to 5 with traditional finger technique is a horrible stretch and very unnatural.

- Taubman has elegant solutions to passages like this..

Play the first C of the arpeggio in the Left Hand!!!

Many of you traditional BOX thinkers would never even consider this..

Okay, now the rest is easy..

Finger 1-3-5 on the G-C-E and use single rotation to throw you into the next position.

Now 1-3-5 and single rotation to a 3..

Do you see what I'm doing?

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Taubman and what is his/her technique?

And what justifies you in saying that there is only two approaches to playing, Taubman and non-Taubman? As far as I can tell my piano instructor teaches what one might call traditional piano technique (scales, etc.) and the three years I have been learning I have never had any kind of pain or injury and I use the thumb under technique. I also practice with Hanon (and so did Rachmanioff and many other such notable pianists). These facts seem to falsify your claims pretty handily.

Oh, and if you don't mind, could you explain to me how I might manage the first line of Beethoven's Op. 106, up to tempo.

I'm sure many consider it, but they just don't do it.
I guess Chopin's (and all the other professionals who play this etude) technique/technical approach (as in, their fingering suggestions) is just flawed or inferior then, right?

As I said, you can do a bad technique for years or even a lifetime and not suffer for it...

But its still inefficient.. and can lead to problems for a certain percentage of the "non-resilient" population.

There are lots of reasons why a thumb-under is horrible.

1. For one thing, you can't get the proper weight or support that the thumb needs.

2. Pull your thumb under your palm and try to move your other fingers.. DO IT NOW!! Do you feel the tightness and lack of mobility?

3. The thumb can't drop gravitationally in that position and drive weight into the key properly.

Its just a flawed traditional technique that is sub-optimal..

The rotational way of lifting the thumb is correct. It keeps the integrity of the entire wrist while allowing for dexterity in the wrist and fingers and proper support and weight into the key.

It makes me sad that you are learning this bad way

As a matter of fact, no.

Their fingering suggestions might be okay...

A good fingering can make a passage easier.. a bad fingering can never be executed correctly.

Good fingering helps here, but what helps the most is the single rotation which throws you to the next position.

These arpeggios require rapid shifts in position...

As I've said over and over, there are sub-optimal ways of doing things that still work.. but wouldn't you want to learn the easiest way?

People only THINK that it does..

They have been brain-washed into thinking that repetition and increased tempo is what leads to dexterity.

It is efficient movement that leads to dexterity... you can practice efficient movement on music, and you get the same result.

Would you rather play music or stupid exercises?

Dude!

Pull your thumb under, move your fingers WITH THAT SAME HAND..

Now move your thumb to its natural resting position, and move your fingers.

If you don't feel the difference, you lack awareness..

+1

I think there may be some physical abnormality in your hand's bone structure.

IGNORANCE.