Currawong is not a dude.

I don't have the sheet music for that one, never played it...

But I'm sure I could solve it easily..

She has no awareness of her own hand then!

There is no way a human being could not tell the difference between these 2 positions...

Pulling the thumb under sets all sorts of tendons in unnatural positions, relaxing the thumb releases this tension.

Maybe its hard to teach this stuff over a computer,...

HERE YA GO.

http://216.129.110.22/files/imglnks/usimg/0/04/IMSLP00029-Beethoven__L.v._-_Piano_Sonata_29.pdf

And remember, I said up to tempo. Anybody can play this line slowly.

I've heard of the Taubman approach but know nothing of it as of several other approaches. I've done Hanon regularly and never had carpel tunnel syndrome or injury of any kind from my approach to playing and I play what most would consider advanced literature. I just had good teachers, I think, who had been taught well and who had no problem with their technical approach.

KP seems to think that since he corrected his faulty approach to playing that anyone not pursuing his new found ability is absolutely wrong. Seems like faulty logic to me and an unwillingness to grant that other 'systems' or approaches produce superior results despite not following the precepts of the Taubman approach.

Who are, for example, the leading famous exponents of this system? Did Richter, Gilels, Rachmaninoff, etc., play the Taubman way?

Were all the famous Liszt and Leschetizky students hampered because Taubman had not revealed the proper method?

Who is the most famous exponent of this system?

Ralph

What you asked wasn't can you tell the difference? but do you feel tightness and lack of mobility? I can feel some difference, but no, I do not feel either tightness or lack of mobility, however much you would like me to. And I assure you I am quite aware of my own hand.

"Karl Pilkington"

Apparently, according to Karl P, any pianist who achieves any kind of ability is using the Taubman technique, they just don't know it. Pretty convenient.

I think he finally realised he put his foot in his mouth with my Beethoven example, he has been quite silent for some time now.

It might have been hard for Richter, Gilels, or Rachmaninoff to play the Taubman technique..

They died before she was born!!!!

You guys are not understanding me though..

Taubman de-constructs the techniques of the great pianists..

So if you analyze pianists with great technique, they already do probably 90% of the ideas that Taubman later analyzes and puts into pedagogical methods..

The problem is that often these methods cannot be taught, because nobody understands what these great pianists are doing!! All you see is them moving fast...

What is taught in pedagogy is often the mis-interpretation of great technique into a bad method.

But often an inefficient technique can work just fine as well..

If you run a marathon and it takes you 100 minutes, and it takes me 5 minutes, I'm more efficient,.. but we both got there.

The problem is that most pianists aren't talented enough to take a poor technique very far.. only some can..

If a professional Taubman teacher demonstrated this to you in person, you would feel the difference.

Its hard over a computer to show you why thumb under sucks..

Correction on the Chopin:

Fingering is:

Play first C of arpeggio with LH.

then...starting on G..

1-3-5 1-3-5 2-1-3-5

The problem is that most of you can't get to the 2 quickly because you don't understand rotation.

PATIENCE

Most famous exponent of this system:

Hmm.. only the head of the piano faculty department at Julliard..

HE SHOOTS HE SCORES!!!!!!!!!

KP, the only thing that sucks around here is your ability to hold a logical, clear, and NON-childish discussion.

A reference for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Okay, I'll bite...

I have made several points:

1. Traditional piano technique leads to injury - this has been proven.

Since there's no such thing as "traditional" piano technique, no proof of this is possible. There are many schools of technique. Some more or less ill-advised than others.

2. Thumb under, finger isolated techniques create tension and pain in the hand

true.

3. Traditional methods of wrist rebound are directly linked to carpal tunnel syndrome

Again, there's no "traditional" method of "wrist rebound" (whatever that is.)

4. Practicing scales or etudes or hanon does not lead to piano improvement, because they tell you WHAT but now HOW.

Of course not. That's what teachers are for, and Taubman doesn't have a monopoly on good technique. There is much in Leschetizky and Matthay, for example, that is physiologically sound.

I'm on a soap box, cause I want to save people from suffering in the uptight traditionalist heck that is piano pedagogy!

Again, there's no such heck. There are many schools of thought on technique. Taubman is one of the good ones, but it's not perfect, and there are others.

I've made some good points...

You don't have to agree with them...

You aren't gonna convince me that stretching is efficient, or thumb under is efficient, or throwing your elbows out of alignment is efficient, or collapsing your wrist is efficient, or finger pressing down is efficient, or endless Hanon is efficient...

These are things I strongly believe..

Yes, I'm being a bit childish and obnoxious, because I'm trying to get through to some of these young people..

I want to save an entire generation of piano babies!!!

Ok, fair enough..

I don't know ALL the other schools of technique..

I've seen enough though to know that there is a lot of bad technique being taught out there by a majority of teachers..

Perhaps the flaw in my post is that there is no "one traditional technique"..

However, I think that isolated finger technique with no double or single rotation is pretty much the tradition in most every school, am I wrong?

I looked at the firs line of Beethoven Op 106, Sonata No. 29..

As far as I can tell, those are just big chords...

In Taubman, you play chords with rotation of the forearm..

No problem.. what is your question here?

I already said I feel a difference, but not tightness or lack of mobility. You don't appear to be paying attention.

A word of advice: If all you want is to have a nice heated internet argument, you're going about it the right way. (I don't think I'll join in, however). If you're trying to get a point across about the merits of Taubman technique, you're going about it the wrong way. Shouting at people that they're wrong, that they don't know what they're talking about, and rubbishing other methods you seem to know little about, for example - all these things hinder whatever message you are trying to communicate.

I agree...

Shouting at people and telling them they are wrong is bad..

This thread is messed up, socially..

However, hopefully my passion will come across, and I am grabbing attention of those that might be suffering under bad teaching..

Now, that I have your attention, I can mellow out a little..

By the way:

The scientific reason thumb under is wrong is that it creates what is known as a DUAL MUSCULAR PULL.

Your thumb is pulling in two different directions. It is both trying to pull inwards with some tendons, and other tendons and muscles are pushing downwards to try and create sound.

In the long run, this is extremely detrimental, both for the sound, and because it creates scar tissue in the thumb.

I am in pain in my thumb just from demonstrating this method to you guys tonight..

You don't have to believe me, but you should keep an open mind..

This is the great thing about the internet, it gives any maverick with a computer the ability to display some kind of authority or knowledge about a certain topic with no need for credentials, examples, etc.

I find it hard to give ANY credit to someone who says they know the key to perfect technique, but doesn't know how the beginning of 106 goes....

So I need to have played every Beethoven sonata in order to have believability?

Anyhow, I am not the one with the credentials, the entire Taubman School are the people with credentials!!!

Now c'mon KP. Be serious. This is an ETUDE. There's a reason you can't just stick the LH in there. By the time you get to bar 5/6, the LH is going to be playing octaves.

I'll tell you something. For me now, the intervals C to E and C to F, with fingers 4/5 is very easy. Unless of course you have a stiff wrist. What happened to rotation? Rotation is of course one of the ways to enable this reach (not the only way, as has been debated here).

There are also accents to consider here as well as evenness of the notes even at the fast indicated tempo

Okay, since I'm being an ignnoramous in this thread, let me ask you this:

What are the other pre-dominant schools of piano technique, and what are their main focus and beliefs?

For instance, what is the Russian technique, and why is it great?

What are the merits of the other schools?

I never was going to try and convince you of anything, nor do I endorse many of the things you said (for example, I don't use Hanon nor do my students)...

But as Currawong said. All you're doing is shouting and disregarding anything that is said by restating the same things over and over. You speak about her techniques as if they are revolutionary and no one has ever heard about them before.

Maybe if you approached this differently, and began a discussion, talking about the pros and cons, etc, this may have turned out better - a productive time. But I don't see any value in this thread at all.

This is just too much.
No, you dont need to have had played all the Beethoven Sonatas. But knowing how one of the most famous sonatas begins does seem pretty much expected of someone who plays Rach ET's and Liszt TE's.
I'm happy for you that Taubman has helped you. But to declare it the only method which can solve technical problems undermines your argument to the point of being a joke. I'm sure Ms. Kaplinsky herself would never utter such a ridiculous statement.

Well it might not be appropriate to use the LH on all the measures to help with the arpeggio, but its an option that shouldn't be ruled out.

I was just pointing out that these are the types of ideas that Taubman comes up with that are automatically ruled out by other techniques..

The reason I don't like 4th to 5th finger is that most students are going to stretch in order to do that.

Traditional technique (as far as I know) teaches you to block the entire chord and just press the fingers down..

So you would be doing an awful stretch between 4 and 5 there if you stuck to tradition.

Yes, with the rotation its easier to just rotate 4 and 5,..

However, I really like the rotating on the 5th finger, completely eliminating that dilemma by putting the 2nd on all the E's..

What is cool about Taubman is you get the most efficient and comfortable blocking for each arpeggio, and then eliminate all stretches by rotating to it..

The hard thing about this etude is that you have a lot of notes and so many shifting of positions, so your body has to be in the exact right place for each passage, and thats a pain in the YOU KNOW WHAT..

This whole thing sounds like a mother insisting her child is good enough to be in the talent show.

Yes... if you have a proper teacher, he/she will address these things easily and you will not have problems. "Taubman" or not, it doesn't matter.