When you lift the forearm, its always done rotationally,,,

DOH!!

20 teachers. Really? Considering there are only about 40 or so certified teachers, you must be going through them.

Obviously she did not rotate because she played them at the same time. Seriously.

Lmao, now you make it sound like some sort of cult.

Every hand is unique, but there must be certain unifying principles..

Just like no two people are exactly alike, but everyone needs oxygen..

So for instance, as I said, you cant bend a finger in half, it would break....

(Thumb Under is like bending the thumb in half, if you get my point)

All movements in Taubman are based on 4 things:

1. Rotation
2. In and Out
3. Up and Down
4. Side to Side

On these demonstration videos, you see them isolating one of the components for teaching purposes..

Doesnt mean the other 3 aren't in there, to different degrees..

The amount of rotation added may be small in the final product..

There are thousands of Taubman teachers..

I have seen videos of all these pianists, expecially Lisitsa..

They may or may not be rotating..

Anyhow, if they used good wrist support and alignment, they could probably solve this passage. You just need to be in each position, the right place at the right time..

But its easier with rotation..

Do you realize that rotation in the final product of a finished technique is not even detectable by sight?

Its the foundation of the technique, and not detectable with the human eye...

Lisitsa plays this piece faster than anyone in the world. She is going against almost all Taubman principles so tension must be building. Yet she is not dying of pain. She practices 12 hours a day. She has a beautiful tone and she is very efficient. Thus she is doing what you say is wrong very very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwysjbPmus

The fact is Dorothy discovered the technique by watching kids without any muscles play virtuoso pieces. But big people have muscles so we can use them to a certain degree.

Certified and on faculty at Golandsky. No. Studied Taubman yes. Can they teach it. Maybe.

Well as you said in another thread:

Actually I believe Taubman argues (and I agree to an extent) that you can't go by videos alone to determine someone's technique.

The faster you play, the "smaller" the motions become such that you can't see it. What looks like finger individualization are really rotational movements.

This is true..

Also, maybe there are OTHER WAYS that work, but I would need to know the science behind them and why they work.

And most importantly, can you prove they don't put the hand at risk for injury?

Another issue. Etudes like Hannon and Czerny. Taubman is not against them. Rather they are against the method in which they are taught and played. To quote Edna Golandsky, "the problem is that none of the etude writers wrote about how to actually play them."

I never said better, I said different. and I also said on my previous post that you cannot rotate with a misaligned wrist, something any taubman teacher can tell you.

Yes, that is more or less true.

Also, I watched that Valentina Lissita video.. she is using good wrist support, and rebounding on the keys, and there is probably a small rebound rotationally from the key.

How are you sure she is breaking Taubman principles?

May we continue tomorrow. I should sleep. But final word, before you talk about any crazy repertoire, study it or at least watch people play it. Also you should actually study the Technique in depth.

I have studied it for years and years!!

Lissita is not "violating every principle" in that video..

She is doing most of what Taubman advocates, and she probably is rotating...

Did you see how she was going into those keys. Ms. Golandsky says that the key will knock against her fingers and make calluses. Plus what about her other videos like Little Red Riding Hood. Bad allignment and posture to taubman, and her technique did not change between youtube posts.

And how old are you. Five. Maybe.

LoL...I wonder if Nir and KK have been reincarnated as Taubmanites.


By the way KP as a project for you, how about you respond to this review of the Taubman technique:

http://reviews.pianotechnique.org/dorothy-taubman-piano-technique.php

While I'm not a fan of Alan Fraser's blatant marketing for his own technique, and straw man arguments, I do think he makes some valid points.

My final word for tonight:

I am sorry if I came on too strong in this thread.

There are obviously great things about certain other techniques, and things that work for other people.

I am obviously being a little bit unreasonable in this thread, and I apologize.

However,..

Any technique that violates a principle of science or anatomy or physics of efficient motion should be considered suspect..

There are reasons so many pianists get injured..

You need to have a critical eye when evaluating technique, and realise that the human hand follows certain laws of nature..

If you bend, break, mis-align, twist, or abuse the hand in any way with a bad technique, it will get injured.

Not everything is relative...

Any good technique has to follow certain principles of good healthy motion.

Having said that, if your technique works for you, more power to you..

I'm sorry...

Cheers,
Karl

Geez - Seems like KP has found the "one true religion" and feels the need to convert the non-believers.

I'm disheartened to learn that my graduate piano professor (who earned his DMA under Sandor) was completely misguided. Nevertheless, for the past 40 years I've still managed to play some fairly challenging repertoire without any pain or physical problems whatsoever. Guess I was one of the lucky ones !! Also - I heard Sandor give an amazing solo recital a few years back when he was in his late 80s. While he had a little trouble walking on and off the stage, he had an extraordinary technique.

KP - Thanks for the info. If Taubman works for you - terrific. However, with all due respect, your missionary zeal is a bit overbearing. Commendable as your intentions may be, there are more effective ways to "change the world and help people." Please consider getting off your soapbox, toning down the rhetoric, and simply leading by example. You'll be much more persuasive.......

Agreed.

See my above post.

He is right when he says:

"Many of the techniques work beautifully in a therapeutic situation where a pianist is recovering from injury, but given to a healthy pianist may serve only to limit, confuse and disempower."

He is correct... if you've been studying a certain way your entire life, and someone shows you Taubman, it will ruin your technique.

Because you learn Taubman either:

1. When you've been injured by a bad technique
2. When you're a beginner

Anyone else should avoid it, because it will require you to re-train your entire way of doing things.

It takes years to create those neurological pathways, and now you are gonna destroy them with a new approach?

Its like speaking Spanish your entire life and then moving to Russia..

So yeah, that part of his review might be right..

But when he says .

"But an actual rotation on every note can only interfere with a smooth, easy movement of the hand – it works directly against phrase shape. Rotations that flow through several notes of a group can be a beautiful and effective means of achieving an elegant phrase shape, but rotation on every single note is in most cases anti-musical. "

That is complete nonsense. He doesn't understand that phrase shaping results from rotation + 3 other forearm motions.

so... i went through a few golansky videos.

i learned quite a bit! most of the stuff are pretty much common sense, i came up with those solutions at one point or another to solve a particular technical problem.

i should add that i took a lesson a while ago from madeline bruser (author of "art of practising") and she stresses understanding your body when playing the piano to reduce injuries. so i've been looking at ways to alleviate stress for a while now, and probably why so many of the things in the taubman approach seem common sense.

the only thing i don't really get is why this "rotation" concept is so emphasized, but mostly it seems like a physiologically natural thing. to get the maximal result from the minimal effort you need to leverage all parts of your hand, including other fingers. i should probably do it more, as i have been figuring out ways to improve my "thumb under" technique. might be useful.

but i'm glad i saw these clips, because even though a lot of it is common sense, i don't really apply them unless for particularly awkward passages. also, i'm glad because it's an additional resource for future questions that i have.

pilkington, stop being such a fanboy.

I can't help it... I'm a fan.. Taubman saved my life..

Does ANYONE out there even question Thumb Under?

Who is really the one who is brainwashed? Me or you?

The reason rotation is important is because of the incredible speed that is generated by wrist rotational movements.

Your wrist moves rotationally at amazing speeds because movement is unhibited, whereas finger isolation technique is much more slow.

When you rotate the finger, the entire forearm weight shapes and gives the sound. The entire arm is behind each note.

When you isolate the finger, the only thing giving sound is that one finger, and there is no support or weight distribution.

Here is another experiment for all you pianists out there!!!

Rotate the forearm back and forth quickly... now move the finger up and down by itself quickly. Which motion is faster?

I have another experiment too, however I dont think it is allowable in these forums.


BBBB

Karl.
You are an imposter. Your reluctance to post videos stems from your knowledge that you are actually a very intermediate pianist. Any attempt of yours to post a video showing works like Transcendental Etudes, Etudes-Tableaux, or Prokofiev will be shot down in flames by more advanced pianists.

I will say it again. Taubman is bull. There exists out there technique that allows ordinary people to play like Horowitz. It sure as heck ain't Taubman.

Taubman teachers just wanna sell those REDICULOUS $500 DVD's.

You are a fraud, an imposter. Probably the biggest troll I have ever seen.

Keep spewing, I'm sure you'll make lots of friends here.

Come one people.... who names their kid Pilkington.

Karl Pilkinton is actually this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Pilkington

Ban this sock puppet I say.

Karl, if you aren't a sock puppet, you gotta post a video.

^^^ this