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#1627993 - 02/25/11 02:38 PM A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph
Monsieur Pichon Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/25/11
Posts: 1
Hi, guys. I was just looking at some autograph editions of some of the Chopin works and I found something intersting. Here is an edition of Chopin op. 26 (no. 1) Polonaise:





When the ff comes we can see on the upper voice (?): D, B# and A #.
Now, let's see on this autograph manuscript from 1834 or 1835:



So why that difference? This Polonaise has been corrected by Chopin years later? I haven't found any of that info wich confirms that idea. Any of you have seen or hearded any recording with the manuscript notes?


Thank you very much.


PD: Sorry for my english.

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#1628002 - 02/25/11 02:58 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6077
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
The B# and A# are also in Chopin's First Editions Online, maybe he did add some corrections to the original manuscript later...
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1628017 - 02/25/11 03:21 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 783
Loc: Brighton, UK
According to the source commentary of the National Edition, Chopin added the B sharp and A sharp (and also the tie of the top D sharp to the next bar) in the proofs of the first French edition (Schlesinger, Paris, July 1836).
_________________________
Julian

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#1628678 - 02/26/11 04:38 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: SlatterFan]
Monsieur_Pichon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Thank you very much for the info, guys.


PD: I'm Monsieur_Pichon, but I had forgot this password account when I createad the thread.


Edited by KoRnU (02/26/11 04:41 PM)

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#1628705 - 02/26/11 05:06 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
Piano Explorer Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 12
I don't know if you have the full autograph available. As most people don't, I think it's important to clear a mistake that is quite common due to editors' habit of changing the original score.

The final section of the piece is, in most editions, marked with a "da capo", which indicates that you have to repeat the first two sections, ending in a 'sad' C# minor. But Chopin's original intention was diferent: he didn't write any "da capo" indication, which means the piece ends in the very diferent C# major.

But as most people play by the "da capo" way, before playing the correct way, have a sort of a previous advertisement to prevent any unnecessary confusion.

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#1628872 - 02/26/11 11:04 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Piano Explorer]
Monsieur_Pichon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Definitely, Chopin didn't wanted to end the piece at C#. But neither in C# minor. Instead of that, this manuscripts is showing the piece ending at the D flat part on a "da capo" for only that part.

If you like, I could post the entire manuscript but It will take me some minutes.


^^

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#1628883 - 02/26/11 11:33 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur_Pichon]
Monsieur_Pichon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Well, here is it. I suppouse that all of us are goint to interpretate this piece in a different way...=P

Page 1:



Page 2:



Page 3:



Page 4:



All in one:




What do you think, guys?


^^


Edited by KoRnU (02/26/11 11:35 PM)

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#1628933 - 02/27/11 01:30 AM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2230
Loc: San Jose, CA
That's so strange. No other dance of his lacks a reprise.. but there it is. "Fine."


Edited by jeffreyjones (02/27/11 01:31 AM)

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#1629055 - 02/27/11 07:40 AM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur_Pichon]
Piano Explorer Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 12
Oh i'm sorry, I was just thinking from memory, and im my head the piece ended in C# major...

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#1629297 - 02/27/11 02:23 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: jeffreyjones]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 783
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
That's so strange. No other dance of his lacks a reprise.. but there it is. "Fine."

This is a tricky and interesting one! According to the National Edition, Chopin normally wrote Fine at the end of manuscripts. It was presumably a term indicating to the engraver/publisher, "That's all, folks! There are no more pages to this piece." (A similar idea features in magazines today, where one often sees a solid square or diamond or other symbol to indicate that the article or interview has ended.)

My speculation is that this simple "end of manuscript" Fine was interpreted as a performance direction by the publishers, countermanding an expected da capo. It is reasonable to wonder why didn't Chopin notice this when proofreading the first French edition (which I think was based on the autograph shown in this thread), and why he didn't cross out the Fine in any of his pupils' copies. It's tricky. It might sound like a copout, but Chopin did have a consistent record of missing a lot of mistakes when proofreading, and my guess is that he just overlooked it.

Mikuli marks this polonaise with da capo at the end, which carries some weight, as he was a long-term pupil of Chopin, corresponded with other eminent pupils when compiling his edition, and he tried hard to be an urtext editor and was not in the habit of making these kinds of changes/additions.

The National Edition also points out that in some of the earlier written polonaises, Chopin did not write da capo, presumably because it was so obvious. The National Edition marks [D.C. al Fine senza repetizioni] at the end, and [Fine] at the end of bar 37, with the square brackets showing that these are editorial. While there is no conclusive evidence, I think theirs is the intended/best way.
_________________________
Julian

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#1629526 - 02/27/11 08:13 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2230
Loc: San Jose, CA
I tend to agree with that. Intent or not, I couldn't dream of playing this Polonaise without a reprise. Not that the C# minor ending is any more resolute, but in a piece like this, you have to return home before going to bed...

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#1629544 - 02/27/11 08:37 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: SlatterFan]
Jeff Kallberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/09
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: SlatterFan
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
That's so strange. No other dance of his lacks a reprise.. but there it is. "Fine."

This is a tricky and interesting one! According to the National Edition, Chopin normally wrote Fine at the end of manuscripts. It was presumably a term indicating to the engraver/publisher, "That's all, folks! There are no more pages to this piece." (A similar idea features in magazines today, where one often sees a solid square or diamond or other symbol to indicate that the article or interview has ended.)

My speculation is that this simple "end of manuscript" Fine was interpreted as a performance direction by the publishers, countermanding an expected da capo. It is reasonable to wonder why didn't Chopin notice this when proofreading the first French edition (which I think was based on the autograph shown in this thread), and why he didn't cross out the Fine in any of his pupils' copies. It's tricky. It might sound like a copout, but Chopin did have a consistent record of missing a lot of mistakes when proofreading, and my guess is that he just overlooked it.

Mikuli marks this polonaise with da capo at the end, which carries some weight, as he was a long-term pupil of Chopin, corresponded with other eminent pupils when compiling his edition, and he tried hard to be an urtext editor and was not in the habit of making these kinds of changes/additions.

The National Edition also points out that in some of the earlier written polonaises, Chopin did not write da capo, presumably because it was so obvious. The National Edition marks [D.C. al Fine senza repetizioni] at the end, and [Fine] at the end of bar 37, with the square brackets showing that these are editorial. While there is no conclusive evidence, I think theirs is the intended/best way.


Conversely (and since the National Edition appeared in print) Zofia Chechlinska has demonstrated that there are several polonaises by Polish composers prior to Chopin that ended after the Trio (and hence without repeating the opening section).

Also note that all three of the first editions (French, German, English) mark "fin" or "fine" at the end of the Trio. You may confirm this at the following excellent site:

Chopin First Editions Online

Jeff Kallberg

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#1629858 - 02/28/11 10:56 AM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
Monsieur_Pichon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
I think that reprise is useless in this piece. I know, somehow, that this piece has to finish in this tone and after such melody in the left hand. well, I think it must end on Db major beacause the first part is not conclusive at all. You are waiting something more, Chopin is telling us something more. Well not Chopin, but his music.


^^

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#1630056 - 02/28/11 04:08 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6077
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
By the way, is there a site with Chopin's manuscripts?
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1630116 - 02/28/11 05:27 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Jeff Kallberg]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 783
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: Jeff Kallberg
Conversely (and since the National Edition appeared in print) Zofia Chechlinska has demonstrated that there are several polonaises by Polish composers prior to Chopin that ended after the Trio (and hence without repeating the opening section).

That is interesting. I see that Chechlinska is an editor of a new critical Chopin edition published by Peters, and that the polonaises edited by her (EP 71907) are due out very soon. I'll definitely take a look.

Op.26 No.1 would be an exception for Chopin in the form. His last three polonaises are more complex in form, but of the other 13+, the 9+ posthumous ones were all published with da capo indications whether Chopin wrote the words in or not (apparently he did not always write them in). Op.26 No.2 and Op.40 No.1 have varied returns of the opening section written out, and Op.40 No.2 has a shortened return to the opening section written out. So his very first published polonaise would be the stand-out exception for him. Possible, but surprising and odd, I think.

Camille O'Meara-Dubois studied this polonaise with Chopin, and she was respected as an authority on Chopin's works by many musicians, including Liszt. Mikuli consulted Dubois when publishing his collected edition of the works of Chopin, and Mikuli includes the da capo.

Moving to the more subjective, I sense a similar mood in both Op.26 No.1 and Op.44. Both are agitated and feature the same insistent rhythm in the main theme, but Op.26 No.1 is a less intense work and finishes quietly and briefly in the minor, while op.44 is much more intense work and finishes quietly but in a prolonged and tense way in the minor, before a vigorous final chime. With hindsight, op.26 is almost a dress rehearsal for his later masterwork. Also, I simply feel that it sounds weird to finish with the trio of Op.26 No.1, but perfectly fitting to finish at the end of the minor section after a return. (I wonder if it is a coincidence that Jeffrey seems similarly convinced of this, and that he is also a big fan of op.44?)

Originally Posted By: Jeff Kallberg
Also note that all three of the first editions (French, German, English) mark "fin" or "fine" at the end of the Trio. You may confirm this at the following excellent site:

Chopin First Editions Online

A fine site! I have linked to it many times in this forum and I consulted it before posting. The German and English first editions appear to have been based on the French first edition, and we only have one autograph to look at, so I don't think this tells us much.
_________________________
Julian

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#1630280 - 02/28/11 09:50 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: ChopinAddict]
Jeff Kallberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/09
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
By the way, is there a site with Chopin's manuscripts?


Alas no, at least on the scale of CFEO. Jeff Kallberg

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#1630351 - 03/01/11 12:08 AM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Jeff Kallberg]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6077
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Jeff Kallberg
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
By the way, is there a site with Chopin's manuscripts?


Alas no, at least on the scale of CFEO. Jeff Kallberg


It's a pity... frown Maybe one day we can start a project to have such a site...
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1631302 - 03/02/11 09:59 AM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
Monsieur_Pichon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
why not now? I have some info and, of course, we could all find out something more. There are a lot of facsimiles going around...What do you say?

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#1631307 - 03/02/11 10:03 AM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur_Pichon]
Jeff Kallberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/09
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: Monsieur_Pichon
why not now? I have some info and, of course, we could all find out something more. There are a lot of facsimiles going around...What do you say?


Major copyright issues. Jeff Kallberg

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#1631328 - 03/02/11 10:37 AM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
Monsieur_Pichon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Copyright issues? What are you talking about? Chopin died like 160 years ago. Noones is the owner of a the manuscript. Even if Chopin has died 5 years ago, please, people. This is art, this is music. Noone can be the OWNER of such things. Its incredible that some people still thinking on private propiety. You cannot be the OWNER of a music piece. You cant posses the music or the arts. Not even the composer itself is the owner of a musical piece. A musical piece is an idea, an idea cannot be sold! Look what happened in Spain with the "Ley Sinde". Please, people. ART CANNOT BE OWNED. There is no PROPERTY in the art. Not even in the land. You cannot own a piece of land. Thats ridiculous!
If we want to take this project forward forget about those stupid things of copyright, property, beings, and all that things. Those all are concepts created by the most putefract part of the human being: the capitalism. ¿Who is the owner of the Polonaise op. 26? The museum of Chopin in Poland? The Bibliothèque nationale de France? Schirmer? The owner of a private collection of MANUSCRIPTS? Come on...Surelly, the polonaise could bring miles of dollars to such entities. But that's inconceivable. An idea cannot be sold.

AN IDEA MUST NOT BE SOLD!


This is art. Art is for all the people who wants it.
I'm saying, with this, that a composer should not recieve something in change of his WORK (money or whatever)? No! They have to be paid for that. But thats totally different of the business in music.


Sorry for the long answer but the reply "No, we cant. Copyright issues..." instead a legitimate response for a project like this, is not confortable at all.


Thank you and sorry for my bad english.

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#1631571 - 03/02/11 04:01 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6077
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I personally only have the Ballade Op.38, which I downloaded from PianoStreet...
I am not an expert, but I tend to think like Monsieur_Pichon that copyright should not be an issue...
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1631706 - 03/02/11 06:26 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
Monsieur_Pichon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Ok, I have:

Polonaise op.26 no.1 and 2.
Polonaise op.53.
Mazurkas op.50 and op. 53 (only no. 3)
Allegro de Concert.


ChopinAddict: Ballade op. 38


Come on, people, lets continue searching!

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#1634347 - 03/05/11 06:07 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur_Pichon]
Monsieur_Pichon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Anyone would like to participate in this project? Maybe we could start a portal to offer all the world the manuscripts......=D


^^

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#1634351 - 03/05/11 06:11 PM Re: A question on Chopin Polonaise op. 26: From autograph [Re: Monsieur Pichon]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6077
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Or at least someone who knows where we can find more...
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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