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#1638953 - 03/11/11 03:47 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: liszt85]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5421
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: liszt85
$70K? You do realize that a lot of piano teachers only make that much, don't you?


?????? That's a lot to assume. Most piano teachers make way, way less than $70K.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1638956 - 03/11/11 03:51 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: AZNpiano]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: liszt85
$70K? You do realize that a lot of piano teachers only make that much, don't you?


?????? That's a lot to assume. Most piano teachers make way, way less than $70K.


I was being extremely liberal with my estimate there because John seems to have quite a high bar for his definition of "rich". He would call $50K below poverty line and I didn't want to make piano teachers look that poor!
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1638960 - 03/11/11 03:57 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: Morodiene]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5421
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
For me, those families that cannot afford the rates that I have set do have many options in the community of teachers who charge much less. I am pretty confident that the people who don't make a lot of money would able to afford lessons.


That's a very accurate description. There is a teacher in the next town over who charges 1/4 of what I charge, and she has students lining out the door.

As a working professional, you want to set your fees right at the threshold of what your ideal clients are willing to pay. I know I'm losing a lot of potential students to teachers who charge less, but I also have to make a living with the number of hours that I can work in a week!
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1638968 - 03/11/11 04:04 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: liszt85]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7305
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Our definitions are poles apart, but I suspect your's might be skewed because of where you sit on the income scale.

According to the US Government, the mean income, family of two, both parents over age 25, is $86,500. The median income is a bit lower at $64,200.

I found this material at http://www.buzzle.com/articles/average-american-income.html. It's probably accurate enough for our discussion:
Quote:
9th Grade or Less
A person who has completed education till 9th grade and older than 25, irrespective of sex, race and occupation has a mean annual earning of $20,308. Which can be a pretty misleading figure as the mean figure will shoot up drastically if one of this sample set earns a lot more. So the median income is given to be around $17,422, which I feel is a more accurate number.

High School Graduate
A high school graduation opens up a lot more job openings in America. And hence understandably, the mean income again is higher. The mean income for a high school graduate is $31,664 while the median earning is $26,505.

Bachelor's Degree
A person with a bachelor's degree on his job application no doubt commands a better salary. The average American income for a person holding a bachelor's degree is more than the national average and stands at $56,740. The median earnings are $43,143. Which basically means that if you're an American holding a bachelor's degree or a higher qualification, you are most certainly earning a lot more than the average American income.

Master's Degree
A person holding a master's degree surely must be holding one of the highest paying jobs in the United States. With a mean earning of $68,302 and a median of $52,390, it is for sure a very impressive amount!

Professional Degree
The cherry on the cake really. Read the figures and gawk. A person with a professional degree on an average makes... wait for it... $119,343 per year. A massive figure indeed. Even the median number for it looks really good. $82,473 per year still means you're right up there! Biggest fish in the job search market!

Basically, for a family of two parents, with at least a BA or BS degree, they are likely to earn close to your figure of being "rich."

I recall that during the presidential race, they were bandying about the figure of $250K as being rich. Truthfully, that seems a bit on the low side to me.

We used to call people in this category "well to do" but certainly not rich. Times have changed!
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1638970 - 03/11/11 04:05 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5421
Loc: Orange County, CA
liszt85--

This issue really has nothing to do with family income. I have taught and still teach children of wealthy families that make over $250K. I also have taught children of families that make less than I do. Regardless of their family income, all students follow the same studio policy IF they want to study with me. That is their choice.

Many families value piano in their children's education. Spending $2,500 a year on piano lessons is a price that many families ("rich" or "poor") are willing to pay.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1638976 - 03/11/11 04:08 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: liszt85]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7305
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: liszt85
I was being extremely liberal with my estimate there because John seems to have quite a high bar for his definition of "rich". He would call $50K below poverty line and I didn't want to make piano teachers look that poor!

How on earth do you know what I would call poor? I make less than $50K. I don't consider myself poor, nor do I consider my wife and myself rich by any standard.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1638985 - 03/11/11 04:30 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: ll]
Stanny Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 1461
Originally Posted By: ll
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: ll
Originally Posted By: Stanny
John summed up exactly what I wanted to say.

My studio differs in that I do not have a termination fee. You pay for lessons a semester at a time. There are no refunds. I would suggest a tightening of your studio policy.


What do you do if there is a medical emergency in their family, if they move, etc etc etc - particularly outstanding reasons for their withdrawal at any given time?


The termination fee still holds. The families know very well what they're getting into when signing the contract. I'm pretty sure this will be John's response. Correct me if I'm wrong. We've had similar discussions many times before, about the need for a steady income, and why such policies are justified in that respect, etc. Not that I agree with the entire philosophy but what do I know? I have not experienced the difficulties that piano teachers have faced with such situations. I do know though that I would try to find some other solution (to keep my income coming in) rather than to twist people's arms in the event of an emergency.


I'm talking to Stanny. I'm interested in how one handles such a situation where the entire semester is paid but someone needs to leave half-way through/whenever.


In the 10 years I've been teaching, I've never had anyone need to leave half way through a semester. I'm sure if there was a medical emergency, or a death of a parent or something along those lines, I'd be flexible. I just don't spell it out in the policy because it's at my discretion.
_________________________
~Stanny~

Independent Music Teacher
Certified Piano Teacher, American College of Musicians
Member: MTNA, NGPT, ASMTA, NAMTA

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#1638987 - 03/11/11 04:35 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: AZNpiano]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
liszt85--

This issue really has nothing to do with family income. I have taught and still teach children of wealthy families that make over $250K. I also have taught children of families that make less than I do. Regardless of their family income, all students follow the same studio policy IF they want to study with me. That is their choice.

Many families value piano in their children's education. Spending $2,500 a year on piano lessons is a price that many families ("rich" or "poor") are willing to pay.


We were not discussing lesson prices. We were discussing certain policies which have early termination fees and other kinds of fees included.

I'm having difficulty getting folks to make consistent statements here. So the discussion is becoming useless now.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1638991 - 03/11/11 04:38 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
If a rich person makes $100k, what does a middle class person earn?


This is why I thought you would consider somebody who makes $50K poor. In my mind, anybody who makes $100K a year is rich. You seemed to disagree. So why is it surprising to you that I think you wouldn't think $50K to be any significant amount of money for anybody to be earning annually?
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1638992 - 03/11/11 04:38 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
Stanny Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 1461
And since the thread has migrated over to income, I just want to pop in and say my families on the lower income side are the best about paying on time and making sure their children work hard at home.
_________________________
~Stanny~

Independent Music Teacher
Certified Piano Teacher, American College of Musicians
Member: MTNA, NGPT, ASMTA, NAMTA

Top
#1639000 - 03/11/11 04:45 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: Stanny]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7305
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Many years ago, when I was a much younger and less experienced teacher, parents were walking all over me. They would come up with a thousand excuses to quite lessons in May, or even April, leaving me holding the bag for various expenses I contracted on their behalf. Now, whether it's maturity, experience or studio policies, families "stick it out" for the year and without complaint.

And you're correct - at least in my experience as well, family income has little correlation with paying on time or preparing lessons at home.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1639002 - 03/11/11 04:48 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: Stanny]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: Stanny
And since the thread has migrated over to income, I just want to pop in and say my families on the lower income side are the best about paying on time and making sure their children work hard at home.


I haven't disagreed with that. I myself fall into that category. I take it very seriously because I don't have money to waste. The point though was about the early termination and other such clauses that some highly sought after teachers have. Since people seem to be confused about what I agree with and disagree with, I guess there is no point in continuing this discussion.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1639003 - 03/11/11 04:51 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Now, whether it's maturity, experience or studio policies, families "stick it out" for the year and without complaint.


In that case I'm willing to bet that 100% of these are not families that make $50K a year (since you now seem to say that $50K is not poor and since you also say that 100% of your clients are not rich). So what you said about 100% of your clients being poor/non-rich just doesn't make sense. You have a decent proportion of rich clients, its as simple as that.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1639008 - 03/11/11 05:01 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: liszt85]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7305
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
No, I don't define $100K income as rich, nor do most people and economists. It is solidly middle class.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
#1639031 - 03/11/11 05:29 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
So $100K is middle class. I earlier claimed that you probably think $50K is poor but you vehemently denied it saying that you yourself make only $50K and you don't consider yourself poor. So you consider $50K middle class too? So middle class = 50K - 100K in your opinion then? That's quite a range! Am I missing something here? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever John, sorry.

So I assume then that most of your clients are "middle class"? That's all that I wanted to say, except that "middle class" is now in quotes as all of this is really relative.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1639040 - 03/11/11 05:36 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
ll Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 1101
Liszt85, it seems you're arguing something that doesn't actually seem to be an issue for anyone but you. You're also trying to pick specifics at a generalization. It doesn't work quite like that.

Poverty limits depend on the number of people within the household. On top of that, anything in a huge range is then broken down - 50k, for example, could be lower middle class, while 100k is upper middle class. Just as a note.
_________________________
II. As in, second best.
Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.

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#1639043 - 03/11/11 05:41 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: ll]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: ll
Liszt85, it seems you're arguing something that doesn't actually seem to be an issue for anyone but you.


Its easy to say that when most people taking part in the discussion are piano teachers. Anyway, I'm outta here. I can't stand inconsistencies.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1639044 - 03/11/11 05:41 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: liszt85]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
Originally Posted By: liszt85
So middle class = 50K - 100K in your opinion then? That's quite a range! Am I missing something here? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever John, sorry.


I just did a quick google search of "middle class" and what that means in $$.

Answers vary, but all answers indicated that middle class is a very wide range of income, and most had the range as much wider than just 50K.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1639047 - 03/11/11 05:44 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: rocket88]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: rocket88
Originally Posted By: liszt85
So middle class = 50K - 100K in your opinion then? That's quite a range! Am I missing something here? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever John, sorry.


I just did a quick google search of "middle class" and what that means in $$.

Answers range about, but all answers indicated that middle class is a very wide range of income, and most had the range as much wider than just 50K.


I'm sure then that you came across the following quotes:

Everyone wants to believe they are middle class...But this eagerness...has led the definition to be stretched like a bungee cord — used to defend/attack/describe everything...The Drum Major Institute...places the range for middle class at individuals making between $25,000 and $100,000 a year. Ah yes, there's a group of people bound to run into each other while house-hunting.
—Dante Chinni


Definitions of the working class are confusing. Defined in terms of income, they may be split into middle-middle or statistical middle class in order to speak to issues of class structure. Class models such as Dennis Gilbert or Thompson and Hickey estimate that roughly 53% of Americans are members of the working or lower classes.




Edited by liszt85 (03/11/11 05:46 PM)
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1639071 - 03/11/11 06:01 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: liszt85]
ll Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 1101
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: ll
Liszt85, it seems you're arguing something that doesn't actually seem to be an issue for anyone but you.


Its easy to say that when most people taking part in the discussion are piano teachers. Anyway, I'm outta here. I can't stand inconsistencies.


I don't mean to disagree with your intent. I'm just saying, I don't think it becomes an issue in the sense you're thinking.

I offer fairly decent prices. While not at the lower spectrum, I definitely don't charge as much as some teachers. And I also participate in a program that subsidizes lower-income families with piano lessons, with a bit of a loss on my part. However, I couldn't logically ONLY have students like this.

That said, I should mention my income from teaching isn't my primary - as I do other things (non-music related) for that. But most teachers are just that: full-time teachers. They need a living too.
_________________________
II. As in, second best.
Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.

Top
#1639081 - 03/11/11 06:12 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: liszt85]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: rocket88
Originally Posted By: liszt85
So middle class = 50K - 100K in your opinion then? That's quite a range! Am I missing something here? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever John, sorry.

I just did a quick google search of "middle class" and what that means in $$.

Answers range about, but all answers indicated that middle class is a very wide range of income, and most had the range as much wider than just 50K.


I'm sure then that you came across the following quotes:


Please do not claim that I saw those quotes. I did not see them.

What I did see was such a blizzard of information that I just quickly scanned a few reports, and they all agreed that the range of "middle class income" was wide, usually greater that 50K, the range you disputed with John.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1639122 - 03/11/11 07:36 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: liszt85]
LimeFriday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 303
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
liszt85--

This issue really has nothing to do with family income. I have taught and still teach children of wealthy families that make over $250K. I also have taught children of families that make less than I do. Regardless of their family income, all students follow the same studio policy IF they want to study with me. That is their choice.

Many families value piano in their children's education. Spending $2,500 a year on piano lessons is a price that many families ("rich" or "poor") are willing to pay.


We were not discussing lesson prices. We were discussing certain policies which have early termination fees and other kinds of fees included.

I'm having difficulty getting folks to make consistent statements here. So the discussion is becoming useless now.


Why do you assume that termination fees would be off putting to people on low incomes? I've been living way under the poverty line for the last couple of years... so I am not speaking from a 'middle class or rich' position here. But there are termination fees for almost any contract you enter in to. Mobile phone contracts, mortgages and other bank loans, and so on. It's a fact of life when you make a commitment to something.

Why would a termination fee and other charges be off putting in music education when people on low/lower incomes enter into such contracts in many other areas of their lives?

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#1639188 - 03/11/11 10:34 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Wow. Anyone thinking $100K is rich has a rude awakening ahead of them at some point in life.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1639194 - 03/11/11 10:41 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: stores]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: stores
Wow. Anyone thinking $100K is rich has a rude awakening ahead of them at some point in life.


I certainly hope I get to a point where I do have a rude awakening waiting for me, if you know what I mean because right now, $100K a year seems like more than sufficient money to me. Anybody who has more than sufficient money is rich in my book.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1639243 - 03/11/11 11:38 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
$100K is a lot more than my husband I make together!
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

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#1639370 - 03/12/11 05:44 AM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
LimeFriday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 303
Loc: Australia
$100K is certainly rich when you are living the lifestyle of someone who earns less than $20K wink All depends on vantage point I suppose. Though I have to say - I won't be getting a rude awakening... I felt plenty rich in the days when I was earning $80K. That was more than enough for my needs and to enjoy the things I enjoyed.

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#1639431 - 03/12/11 09:00 AM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11422
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
It's important to consider the cost of living in an area too. Ohio and California do not have the same economies and average costs for necessities, for example. In our area, someone making $100k is rich, or at the very least upper middle class. I also do not know any teachers that make $70k. I'm *very* lucky if I break $30k in a year.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
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#1639496 - 03/12/11 11:08 AM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks $100K is at least upper middle class and is more than sufficient money for most people (of course it depends.. if you have 10 kids, that probably is not enough). Cost of living is a consideration too, but for someone to say that 100K is not rich (even calling clients who make $50-100K "struggling to make ends meet" to justify some point) is ridiculous. The wiki quote I posted earlier summarizes this well. People want to stretch the range of what "middle-class" is for various reasons, defending statements such as the ones made in this thread included.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1639523 - 03/12/11 11:43 AM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3508
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Just because somebody's income falls into a statistical middle ground doesn't mean they aren't rich. Some countries have bloated economies and unrealistic impressions of what richness entails. Are we going to start classifying somebody with $10 million dollars as just upper middle-class because there are people like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates around? Try comparing how people live in countries outside of the Western World and most of us will consider ourselves very rich. I recently found out that I am living in poverty according to a statistical model - first I'd heard of it. I think I live a very wealthy life even if I am at the bottom end of the scale. I find it both amusing and perverse that some people think wealth is only relative to what those around them have. Talk about ungrateful! Even people on social security benefits are rich compared to many people in the world who don't get them. I honestly don't even care what I earn compared to other people. If I have enough to live well, that's all I need to know. I can still buy my luxuries, I can still go on holidays once a year. What business do I have in accepting my official mantle of "living in poverty"? I should also add that it is largely a personal decision on my part because I decided that I wanted to work less and have more time for things I like. I sacrificed some income, but I don't feel any poorer. Only people who genuinely have to go without necessities, can be considered poor. People who have little trouble affording things are rich. There you go, richness can be defined without actually specifying numbers and comparing people with each other. That's one of the curses of the modern world - jealousy and competitiveness over what others have.

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#1639537 - 03/12/11 12:02 PM Re: "Leave of Absence" Policy? [Re: sonataplayer]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Finally, somebody who understands statistics (though there are points in your argument that might oppose both sides of the argument at hand here ;)). I believe you would agree with me though when I say that people who have absolutely no trouble signing up for piano lessons that involve committing to annual tuition with early termination clauses that involve at least a couple of hundred bucks are not people who struggle to make ends meet as John seems to claim his clients do.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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