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#1642905 - 03/17/11 01:33 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: JFP]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: JFP
Let's say € 350 to € 400 extra for the wooden keybed and the rest for the added electronics. Just my thought...


I think it's not too much about the wooden keybed but about a different keyboard action with much longer keys.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1642926 - 03/17/11 02:02 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: 10fingers]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis, pianobear. I think one other consideration is that no one in their right mind buys a real piano over the internet, sight unseen, because every AP is different, and it is how it sounds and plays that concerns us. Not so DPs, that should be of uniform quality (or lack thereof). So we are quite happy to audition a DP for hours at a local store, and then buy it online (I've done it). Problem is, a small local store has a much higher overhead than the online traders, and has to charge more to stay in business. Bottom line: if we are unprepared to pay a small premium for the local bricks and mortar store to make an operating profit, then these stores will eventually die out. Then we end up spending that small premium, or more, flying across the country to audition the latest products at a noisy superstore.


The only board I've bought not from a mom and pop music store was the RD-700NX which I bought from Sweetwater, and mostly because they were the only ones at the time who I knew had RD-700NXs to ship. Needless to say, the NX went back. I bought my CP300/RD700GX(F)/RD300GX and NP88 all from mom and pop music stores. I have chosen to support, even at a premium at times, the smaller full-service mom and pops as opposed to the non-service box house like GC and Sam Ash. Oddly enough, the last 3 keyboards I've bought were discounted (though TN does have a 9.25% sales tax) so I probably paid about parity what I'd pay online, with the added benefit of supporting a place who can service and support me.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1643082 - 03/17/11 06:13 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: PianoZac]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis, pianobear. I think one other consideration is that no one in their right mind buys a real piano over the internet, sight unseen, because every AP is different, and it is how it sounds and plays that concerns us. Not so DPs, that should be of uniform quality (or lack thereof). So we are quite happy to audition a DP for hours at a local store, and then buy it online (I've done it). Problem is, a small local store has a much higher overhead than the online traders, and has to charge more to stay in business. Bottom line: if we are unprepared to pay a small premium for the local bricks and mortar store to make an operating profit, then these stores will eventually die out. Then we end up spending that small premium, or more, flying across the country to audition the latest products at a noisy superstore.


The only board I've bought not from a mom and pop music store was the RD-700NX which I bought from Sweetwater, and mostly because they were the only ones at the time who I knew had RD-700NXs to ship. Needless to say, the NX went back. I bought my CP300/RD700GX(F)/RD300GX and NP88 all from mom and pop music stores. I have chosen to support, even at a premium at times, the smaller full-service mom and pops as opposed to the non-service box house like GC and Sam Ash. Oddly enough, the last 3 keyboards I've bought were discounted (though TN does have a 9.25% sales tax) so I probably paid about parity what I'd pay online, with the added benefit of supporting a place who can service and support me.


to each his own. you are going to pay one way or another. I dont think mom and pop are going to work on your DP for free.

I purchased a pearl river in 2003 from a local dealer. I havent used them since the free tuning.


Edited by craig1999871 (03/17/11 06:14 PM)
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1643244 - 03/17/11 10:36 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
AldoEsplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
the action alone is the reason why im buying mp10. sounds can be substituted by pc.
That was exactly my thought when I bought it. I expected to use it as a MIDI controller with a PC supplying the sound. Out of the box, I wasn't blown away by the sound. But now that I've had time to tweak it a little, the sound is one of the things I'm most impressed with. I use the MP10 as my primary piano sound with it recorded to a thumb drive, and importing the wav file into my DAW. I've lost almost all interest in the software pianos I was looking at getting next.

Half-pedaling and re-pedaling are quite well done. Sympathetic resonance is very well implemented. Highs are delicate and clear. Lows are thunderous and rich. I found it needed a few dB boost around 350-500 Hz (which is no big deal with the sweepable mid).

It's also very easy to use and intuitive. I hardly cracked open the manual (sorry James).

And the action is fantastic.

Back on topic, I did get one of the defective units. But, Kawai's customer service was exceptional. Open and honest, and very much a "we're going to make it right" attitude. And thanks KawaiDon for being so forthcoming with information.

Aldo

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#1643336 - 03/18/11 02:21 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: AldoEsplay]
pianobear100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/12/05
Posts: 61
Loc: Atlanta
The store I flew out to try out the MP10 and FP&F was Pierre's in Los Angeles. I (and Pierre) was the only one in the store. Ideal situation to compare instruements. If I decide to buy one of these instruments, I will order it from him. I feel confident that I will not be overpaying for the instrument at his store. He knows his products and after our dicussion, I know he will make me a more than fare deal. The flight across contry is not so bad if you plan a visit to DisneyLand too. I always visit local music stores when I take a vacation. Mixing pleasure with more pleasure.

On repair by Mom & Pop music stores. They may not fix it free forever, but they have a repair staff that knows what they are doing, especially when it comes to these complicated actions that are being put in these high end digital pianos. My experience with other companies that have fixed my digital instruments in the past have not been positive. Of course, the tunings were not free, but the repair work was,

Steinway was still doing free waranty work on my instrument up to 10 years.

On my Kawai MP8 with the 2 wooden sticky keys, I don't know who to trust. Trust an electronic's guy who is not skilled in regulation of actions, or trust a piano tuner to take the digital piano apart. That both are scary to me.

Kawai support have said they will help me take the piano apart myself over the phone or send me instructions on how to do it. Then when it is in pieces, I am going to call the piano tuner to regulate. I think that is my safest bet. Luckily my faher was a TV repairman so I feel some confidence in tearing into electronic things.

Another reason I haven't decided on another instrument is that I still love my MP8. I know the action is quicker and the black notes play evener with the white keys, but I'm not for sure my MP8 isn't more responsive in eveness of loud and soft for the type of music I like to play. Also, I need to listen to the piano/string pad combination. It is fabulous in my opion on the MP8. I need more time on the MP10 as I not for sure the string pad is the same.

I guess I need to take a vacation and see where Liberace is buried and go to Pierr's again. smile
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Don

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#1643351 - 03/18/11 03:17 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: pianobear100]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

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#1643532 - 03/18/11 12:14 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: craig1999871

to each his own. you are going to pay one way or another. I dont think mom and pop are going to work on your DP for free.

I purchased a pearl river in 2003 from a local dealer. I havent used them since the free tuning.

Well, I've decided I'll pay more to support smaller, better service mom and pops. It's a choice I made because waling into GC is like walking into Wal-Mart, which I also don't go into. We can't hardly complain about no service and nowhere to test instruments out if all we're after is a cheaper price. Don brings up a good point, and that's not the first time I've heard that the online retailers are killing the mom and pops. I tried to demo an RG-1F and when I talked to Roland, the dealer they referred me to had none and couldn't afford to keep them because of competition from the online retailers. Not every mom and pop knows what they're doing, and won't always give you the best service, but try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1643589 - 03/18/11 02:38 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Well said.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1643599 - 03/18/11 02:58 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3047
Loc: Oregon
OT. James, are you in the UK or still in Japan? How are things for Kawai and everyone you know in Japan?
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http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1643631 - 03/18/11 04:22 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: PianoZac]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
[quote=craig1999871] try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.

and I dont shop there either. Ya if mom and pop were so good we wouldnt even be online talking in a forum. We would have all the info from mom and pop already lol.

I understand what your saying but this is the way the world is turning. Everything online. For the most part this is a good thing really. Keeps competition going stronger, I can easily find products that are great and have reviews from people like me to help me along. Ya everything has its drawbacks like not having a local person to rely on. Guess to each his own.


Edited by craig1999871 (03/18/11 04:25 PM)
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1643645 - 03/18/11 04:47 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Kawai rocks! Kawai makes some of the absolute best consumer grade acoustic pianos in the world and I absolutely love my RX-2.

However, as Kawai James has repeated here on numerous occasions: you should only buy a piano from a local dealer that allows you to audition the instrument and who will be around to service it. For most of us, given that there are none at all local retail outlets that are interested in selling and servicing Kawai and actually do so, that will mean being forced to choose a different brand that is sold and supported by our local dealers.

We have some amazing Mom and Pop music stores where I live. Many of them deserve our business and we will have to respect the decisions they make in merchandising and editing the assortments they choose to offer to the consumer, which here locally means Yamaha, Roland, Korg and Nord.

However, there will also always be those who play the full lineup of Yamaha and Roland digital pianos locally and then order their unit from a dealer offering a competitive price whether or not they are the closest dealer. What really are they risking? After all, how many threads have we read on this forum about Yamaha or Roland pianos being DOA or needing technical servicing from a local dealer?

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#1643667 - 03/18/11 05:36 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3572
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
[quote=craig1999871] try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.

and I dont shop there either. Ya if mom and pop were so good we wouldnt even be online talking in a forum. We would have all the info from mom and pop already lol.

I understand what your saying but this is the way the world is turning. Everything online. For the most part this is a good thing really. Keeps competition going stronger, I can easily find products that are great and have reviews from people like me to help me along. Ya everything has its drawbacks like not having a local person to rely on. Guess to each his own.


Actually it's not such a good thing if all retailing trends towards online. It means you will not be able to try anything out before buying. Relying on user reviews doesn't get around the problem of buying "feel" related products. Some things you need to try to know if you want it. I think it's pretty unethical when people spend an afternoon in a real store trying everything out, asking questions, taking brochures, and then walk out the door to go home and find it online. Don't you think that privilege of trying it out is worth something? Are we not all part of a community? Wouldn't it be better to support people in our local area? The attitude of "cheapest always wins" has costs that aren't immediately apparent, but they are there and you will discover it eventually.

In today's market place, the real store is struggling to compete and they will drop their price to the lowest they can. That's the price that I think is fair to pay - especially if you use their instruments to make your decision. People who go to a store and waste somebody's time with no intention of buying there are unethical. I look forward to the day that governments rethink their tax policies to give real retailers a chance to compete with onliners. Geez, don't we spend enough time indoors at home channeling our whole lives through our computers?

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#1643676 - 03/18/11 05:51 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: voxpops]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
voxpops, I'm in the UK now. My travel arrangements were changed, so I ended up flying out of Osaka (Kansai) on Monday morning, rather than Tokyo (Narita) on Saturday afternoon.

As I believe I may have mentioned in a separate thread, my trip to England was booked several weeks ago. While it's obviously nice to catch-up with my family after a few years away, I feel a strong desire to return to my adopted homeland and contribute to Japan in whatever way I can.

Regarding the situation at Kawai, I believe everything at the head office in Hamamatsu is running as normal, however a number of Kawai stores and music schools in the north of the country have been affected. All Kawai employees are being encouraged to donate towards relief/rebuilding efforts.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1643677 - 03/18/11 05:53 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
[quote=craig1999871] try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.

and I dont shop there either. Ya if mom and pop were so good we wouldnt even be online talking in a forum. We would have all the info from mom and pop already lol.

I understand what your saying but this is the way the world is turning. Everything online. For the most part this is a good thing really. Keeps competition going stronger, I can easily find products that are great and have reviews from people like me to help me along. Ya everything has its drawbacks like not having a local person to rely on. Guess to each his own.


Actually it's not such a good thing if all retailing trends towards online. It means you will not be able to try anything out before buying. Relying on user reviews doesn't get around the problem of buying "feel" related products. Some things you need to try to know if you want it. I think it's pretty unethical when people spend an afternoon in a real store trying everything out, asking questions, taking brochures, and then walk out the door to go home and find it online. Don't you think that privilege of trying it out is worth something? Are we not all part of a community? Wouldn't it be better to support people in our local area? The attitude of "cheapest always wins" has costs that aren't immediately apparent, but they are there and you will discover it eventually.

In today's market place, the real store is struggling to compete and they will drop their price to the lowest they can. That's the price that I think is fair to pay - especially if you use their instruments to make your decision. People who go to a store and waste somebody's time with no intention of buying there are unethical. I look forward to the day that governments rethink their tax policies to give real retailers a chance to compete with onliners. Geez, don't we spend enough time indoors at home channeling our whole lives through our computers?


How about if you go to your local dealer and spend hours of their time auditioning their Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Nord pianos that they have displayed at considerable expense and merchandising risk and then you go and buy a Kawai from the only source possible -- a dealer far away. Isn't that even more unethical in your book?

Successful manufacturers realize that they are not just responsible for putting together a decent keyboard, but that they must actually also dominate the entire supply chain from marketing to package design to dealer network building in order to be able to solve the problems of their consumers: their playing problems but also their selection and shopping problems.

For reliable, mainstream instruments that are designed right, manufactured with care, packaged and shipped professionally, etc. the value added from having a place to audition is actually quite small: much smaller than the cost that a local dealer must spend in order to provide these services in most cases.

How do most people buy stage pianos these days? You ask around, read publications and forums, you try one out wherever you can or you just order it and return it if you don't like it.

The conundrum for Kawai is that their top of the line hybrid wood/plastic product seems to not be able to be shipped reliably and needs the most attention from a local dealer to correct regulation problems while at the same time they have some of the spottiest local retail distribution in the business. The fact that they still sell so many instruments is a true and paramount monument to the brand loyalty of their existing customers and to the perceived quality of their products. Chapeau.

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#1643680 - 03/18/11 05:56 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
[quote=craig1999871] try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.

and I dont shop there either. Ya if mom and pop were so good we wouldnt even be online talking in a forum. We would have all the info from mom and pop already lol.

I understand what your saying but this is the way the world is turning. Everything online. For the most part this is a good thing really. Keeps competition going stronger, I can easily find products that are great and have reviews from people like me to help me along. Ya everything has its drawbacks like not having a local person to rely on. Guess to each his own.


Actually it's not such a good thing if all retailing trends towards online. It means you will not be able to try anything out before buying. Relying on user reviews doesn't get around the problem of buying "feel" related products. Some things you need to try to know if you want it. I think it's pretty unethical when people spend an afternoon in a real store trying everything out, asking questions, taking brochures, and then walk out the door to go home and find it online. Don't you think that privilege of trying it out is worth something? Are we not all part of a community? Wouldn't it be better to support people in our local area? The attitude of "cheapest always wins" has costs that aren't immediately apparent, but they are there and you will discover it eventually.

In today's market place, the real store is struggling to compete and they will drop their price to the lowest they can. That's the price that I think is fair to pay - especially if you use their instruments to make your decision. People who go to a store and waste somebody's time with no intention of buying there are unethical. I look forward to the day that governments rethink their tax policies to give real retailers a chance to compete with onliners. Geez, don't we spend enough time indoors at home channeling our whole lives through our computers?

+ 1 Extremely well put ando.

Quick story on my Nord...but when I went to buy it, the guys quoted me a price which including local sales tax of 9.25% put me about $250 north of what I knew I could get online. That $250 could've got me the NP88 plus the Nord gig bag. But I went in the store several times, talked to the guys quite a bit, and decided that $250 was worth the satisfaction of knowing I'm helping the place out.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1643688 - 03/18/11 06:08 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: theJourney
However, as Kawai James has repeated here on numerous occasions: you should only buy a piano from a local dealer that allows you to audition the instrument and who will be around to service it.


Well, I encourage consumers to support local dealers, especially if they feel that the store provides a pleasant environment in which to play-test various instruments, and the sales staff are accommodating to their needs. However, I don't believe I've ever stated that consumers should only purchase from local dealers.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1643717 - 03/18/11 06:47 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: theJourney

The conundrum for Kawai is that their top of the line hybrid wood/plastic product seems to not be able to be shipped reliably and needs the most attention from a local dealer to correct regulation problems while at the same time they have some of the spottiest local retail distribution in the business. The fact that they still sell so many instruments is a true and paramount monument to the brand loyalty of their existing customers and to the perceived quality of their products. Chapeau.


Ouch!!! Mr. KAWAI-bashing is back! Is it all starting over again??? It was so nice and peaceful the last few months with reasonable statements from all contributors in this forum. The conundrum for theJourney is: Why do good things always come to an end?
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1643852 - 03/18/11 11:40 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: theJourney]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3572
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: theJourney


How about if you go to your local dealer and spend hours of their time auditioning their Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Nord pianos that they have displayed at considerable expense and merchandising risk and then you go and buy a Kawai from the only source possible -- a dealer far away. Isn't that even more unethical in your book?


No, that's different because you are trying competing products in good faith. ie, you haven't decided before you even go in there that you aren't going to buy anything from them. I'm talking about how some people don't even engage in talk of a deal with the salesperson because they just want to use their shop to play around then buy elsewhere. Surely people should give retailers a chance to get close to those online retailers?

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#1644173 - 03/19/11 03:35 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
are any of you store owners by any chance?
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1644486 - 03/20/11 01:49 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
are any of you store owners by any chance?

Not I.

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#1644493 - 03/20/11 02:24 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: ando


Actually it's not such a good thing if all retailing trends towards online. It means you will not be able to try anything out before buying.



You can't try them out anyway at least not at the same store you would buy them from. The only store where you could reasonably expect to see a range of stage piano's in either Melbourne or Sydney is Allens big city store and they price everything at full retail plus even more sometimes.
Online retailing with generous return policies slaughters the pathetic excuse for musical retailing we have in Australia. I travel all over the world playing and Australia is the worst country for music stores in terms of stock, knowledge, competition, service and pricing.
Online retailing is run in Australia by a few small specialist stores that generally know more, stock more, and price less then the big stores like Allens.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1644506 - 03/20/11 03:44 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: Dr Popper]
Siriosys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 136
Loc: Auckland, NZ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper

Australia is the worst country for music stores in terms of stock, knowledge, competition, service and pricing.


LOL..........you wanna come over here to NZ, I think Aussie will get a run for it's money in that regard!!!!.......

We're such a small market, that the importer is basically the same as the retailer retailer which means if you want Nord product for example and you've had a bad run with the ONLY retailer chain that has them........you're screwed......... the game Monopoly comes to mind.........
_________________________
Nord Stage 2, VAX77

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#1644507 - 03/20/11 03:55 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
Siriosys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 136
Loc: Auckland, NZ
oh by the way, completely ON topic, big thumbs up and thanks to Kawai, and specifically KawaiDon for coming forward with an announcement on what's happening to resolve the issue. Really good to see and just shows Kawais level of commitment to their customers and also probably a bit of Kaizen being pratised too.
_________________________
Nord Stage 2, VAX77

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#1644634 - 03/20/11 11:23 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: theJourney


How about if you go to your local dealer and spend hours of their time auditioning their Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Nord pianos that they have displayed at considerable expense and merchandising risk and then you go and buy a Kawai from the only source possible -- a dealer far away. Isn't that even more unethical in your book?


No, that's different because you are trying competing products in good faith. ie, you haven't decided before you even go in there that you aren't going to buy anything from them. I'm talking about how some people don't even engage in talk of a deal with the salesperson because they just want to use their shop to play around then buy elsewhere. Surely people should give retailers a chance to get close to those online retailers?


Yes. I understand. This is certainly an issue for traditional retailers, especially with the availability of relatively high levels of service and low prices from (inter)national web and mail order companies. However, from the point of view of the consumer, I think it is hard to say categorically that it is unethical to not buy from a (local) store that you have shopped at. If you went shopping for a new suit you wouldn't feel strange not buying it from the store that didn't have a friendly and competent tailor with the suit you wanted that fit you for the price you wanted. Why would it be different for digital pianos?

1. What happens if you have three local stores to choose your Kawai MP10 from? Is it unethical to shop at all three? If you shop at all three, is it unethical to choose the one you want to buy from for your own personal reasons? Is it unethical to only buy from one at all, or should you buy the stage piano from one, the bench from the second and the pedal unit from the third to reward them all somewhat for having spent time with you and demonstrated the products?

2. What happens if, as James mentions, there is also the matter of your comfort with a given dealer. If you aren't treated well by the local dealer, or you don't trust them after the sales talk, or they weren't very helpful and didn't have product knowledge, are you still ethically obligated to buy from them?

3. What if the only thing you disagree on is the terms and conditions of the sale in general and the price in particular and the local dealer without providing any additional delivery or other service wants to charge you 20% more than a direct channel. You did spend an in his store after all. Are you still ethically obligated to buy from him or her making that hour one of your most costliest hours spent anywhere ever?

4. You might also have spent an hour on the phone with an experienced and knowledgeable product specialist at the out of town direct sales retailer. Are you not under a similar obligation to buy from them? Especially if they were offering better advice and faster delivery besides their lower price?

I am sure you will agree that it is a bit more complicated than simply saying that it is unethical.

The best way for a local dealer to make the sale is to merchandise and stock the products that are right for their local market, ensure having the product in stock and being able to deliver it faster and easier than an out of town dealer and to set prices that are equivalent to or not unreasonably higher than the market level street price that anyone with an internet connection can control. That is what our most successful local retailer does and he sells digital pianos by the full truckload every quarter.

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#1644751 - 03/20/11 03:42 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...should you buy the stage piano from one, the bench from the second and the pedal unit from the third to reward them all somewhat...?"

This is what I've done, partly to try to be fair with all, and partly from the angle of enlightened self-interest, which tells me that I would like all the music places to be there for me next time. Also, it's good for me if the retailers know who I am and what my interests are, when I look in at their place of business... even if that 'place' is at the end of a wire.
_________________________
Clef


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#1644786 - 03/20/11 05:11 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: theJourney]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3572
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: theJourney

I am sure you will agree that it is a bit more complicated than simply saying that it is unethical.

I believe I made this point very clearly but I'll state it one more time. I believe it is unethical to use a store as your personal try-out park if you have no intention of even talking to the staff about their best deal. There are people out there who assume that online is always the cheapest, and they use stores to try things, tell the salesperson they are just looking, then go home and order it online. I would like to see people who visit stores at least support them to the extent that they give them a chance to compete ie. engage in some bargaining and see what they can do for you. I also think that paying a little bit more is usually worth it to establish a solid relationship with a local supplier. That will usually lead to better deals and better service in the future. Quite often, once shipping and insurance are factored in, the real store is pretty competitive - it's just that the myth of Online is where the bargains are has really taken hold. They have collected plenty of data in recent years which shows the retail sector is shrinking and online is growing. This has many negative flow on effects for the community.

Playing stores off against each other isn't unethical because they are all in a position to compete for your business and their showrooms are there to persuade you to consider them. I am talking about the type of person who has already decided where they are going to buy something (online) and using real stores for playing, pretending they are interested to salespeople (wasting their time), collecting brochures, lying by saying, "I'll have to think about it", then going home and clicking Buy This Item with a mouse.

If we extend the logic of always going by price, eventually there will be practically no physical stores and we will all be buying things untried. Make no mistake, retail is haemorrhaging at the moment from competition from online sellers. Online sellers are exempt from a lot of expenses and taxes that real retailers have to pay. It's generally bad for our society to support things that shrink the workforce and reduce public capital. Yes, I know people will generally go with price despite anything I say. It still depresses me to think how things are trending.

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#1644835 - 03/20/11 06:53 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
+1 ando

With this caveat: we all do things that are unethical from time to time, so I wouldn't censure folks whose transgressions are slightly different from mine. However, if you find you are lying in order to get ahead, that's not usually a good thing.

At the other end of this discussion is this question: how healthy is it for our lives to become more and more connected to a computer screen, and less and less connected to real people? Yes, I enjoy this forum and the shared advice, and the sense of community, but it is no substitute for real, in-the-flesh relationships, (don't take that the wrong way), like shopping in our own community.

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#1644836 - 03/20/11 06:57 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
lol I just can't imagine people raising such a stink about buying online.


Edited by craig1999871 (03/20/11 06:57 PM)
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1644899 - 03/20/11 09:00 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3572
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
lol I just can't imagine people raising such a stink about buying online.


No one is - read the posts carefully. A particular situation is being described. If after having read it, you still think it's the way to go, go for it. It just means you are part of the "me" generation.


For the record, there are lots of things I buy online. I just don't use normal retailers, spending hours of their time and pretending like I'm going to buy from them, then go home and buy online. If I am on the fence, I'll tell the salesperson upfront that I have seen the same product online and state the price - then I ask how low can they go. Sometimes they will match or get pretty close. If they can't get close enough, I leave and stop wasting their time.

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#1644954 - 03/20/11 11:23 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
dewar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 139
why not. Because major retailers wanted to make you waste your gas by making you step into their store they are now a product for your ogling pleasure.

For instance while sifting through some kawai's I noticed the store carried the p155 (Gotta say the keys nice but not great, and with a good set of speakers I think the sound could be great) He wanted to sell it and the stand for I think 1400 plus tax.

I mentioned I could get not only the keyboard and stand but also the bench and bunch of other crap in a bundle for less. Yet he remained that the good price was there, even though from the looks of it that keyboard had sat with it's freind dust for a bit.

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