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#1639527 - 03/12/11 11:47 AM Kawai MP-10 Statement
KawaiDon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 1225
Loc: Orange County, CA
March 10, 2011

Dear Fellow Keyboardists:

It was with great excitement that Kawai America and Kawai Canada launched our new flagship MP10 Professional Stage Piano at the end of 2010. We believe that this instrument is a tremendous advancement over comparable keyboards in the marketplace—a view echoed by industry experts and media reviews.

After shipments started, we began to receive reports of problems with some MP10 instruments related primarily to uneven key spacing and shipping damage. We immediately reported these issues to our offices in Japan and Kawai America’s technical team began an investigation here. We also made the difficult decision to halt all shipments until the cause of these problems could be determined. While halting shipments is never a preferred option for a manufacturer, we believed this action to be in the best interests of our customers and dealers—and consistent with our longstanding reputation for quality and customer support.

We are now pleased to report that the key spacing problem has been solved and the MP10 packaging has been improved. Kawai America and Kawai Canada will resume shipments to North American dealers immediately. Kawai continues to be proud of our instruments and our excellent reputation for quality and customer service. As the MP10 resumes shipping, we anticipate that it will quickly gain a reputation as the finest stage piano in the industry.

For more information, please feel free to contact us at info@kawaius.com.

Sincerely,

Kawai America / Kawai Canada
_________________________
Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America

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#1639560 - 03/12/11 12:43 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3047
Loc: Oregon
Thanks for coming here to make your statement, Don. I think it was a brave decision to halt shipments and solve the problem; (other manufacturers please take note...).

Slightly OT since you're here. There are many people on this forum who have concluded that the MP10 would be the perfect stage piano if it were twenty pounds lighter. I would have been first in line for an MP10-lite if such a plastic-keyed UPHI board had been available. As it stands, I was obliged to purchase elsewhere to achieve a top-quality, lightweight gigging package, as the MP6 doesn't offer Kawai's best sound engine. I would love to have access to the best sounds that Kawai can offer, but it has to be truly portable (for a 57-year-old).
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1639591 - 03/12/11 01:40 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: voxpops]
filipi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 10
My main problem with MP6 or MP10 is that I can't find anybody selling them in my area to try them.
And I live in the SF bay area not the lost coast.
That's a shame Kawai doesn't expand their keyboards dealership network.

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#1639600 - 03/12/11 01:49 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: filipi]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3047
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: filipi
My main problem with MP6 or MP10 is that I can't find anybody selling them in my area to try them.
And I live in the SF bay area not the lost coast.
That's a shame Kawai doesn't expand their keyboards dealership network.

I'd happily host an MP10 and MP6 for people in the western USA to try!
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1639606 - 03/12/11 01:56 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: voxpops]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

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#1639617 - 03/12/11 02:11 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: Dave Ferris]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3047
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
That's very cool Don. I'd like to see Roland or Korg come on a public keyboard forum and admit there were problem areas in their products.

Yes. This "corporate infallibility" syndrome is actually very odd. Everyone who works at Roland, Yamaha, etc., buys products from, say, Toyota or Microsoft, the same as the rest of us. They must know how frustrating and off-putting it is when a company denies a problem exists or simply stonewalls. They must also know that it causes a drift away to competitors - in other words, it's counterproductive. So why do they continue to do it?

My estimation of Kawai as a brand is way ahead of many of their competitors, simply because they treat their customers as fellow citizens, talk to us as equals, and share our enthusiasm. Of course, I won't buy a product unless it's right for me, but if it came down to a choice of two equally competent products from Kawai and Korlandaha, I'd pick the Kawai.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1639821 - 03/12/11 07:49 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: voxpops]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
sweetwater in stock ohhhhh boyy. gotta sell this pearl river first! darnit

any takers? lol.

http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/msg/2223386631.html


Edited by craig1999871 (03/12/11 07:50 PM)
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1639855 - 03/12/11 08:48 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
KawaiDon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 1225
Loc: Orange County, CA
I am not familiar with the upcoming products, but I am quite sure the sound engine from the MP-10 will find it's way into a lighter instrument.

As for dealers, Filipi, it's a problem. The on-line dealers have cut so far into storefronts profit margins that stores don't want to carry them.

Don Mannino (piano technician, not digital person)

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#1640162 - 03/13/11 01:54 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
YoungH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 26
Loc: CA, USA
Don, Thanks for your clarification on the status of the MP10 keyboard problem. That Kawai has halted all shipments since the uneven key spacing problem showed up is a responsible one. It's certainly good to know that all MP10s being shipped have had this problem resolved.

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#1640188 - 03/13/11 02:37 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3047
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: KawaiDon
I am not familiar with the upcoming products, but I am quite sure the sound engine from the MP-10 will find it's way into a lighter instrument.

I'm very much looking forward to that! If you have a chance, Don, please ask the designers to include the new Rhodes and Wurlitzer samples also.

(PS: glad to know you're real, and not merely a digital representation grin)
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1640192 - 03/13/11 02:47 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KawaiDon
I am not familiar with the upcoming products, but I am quite sure the sound engine from the MP-10 will find it's way into a lighter instrument.

A request: could Kawai please produce a DP that is fully sampled i.e. not looped? You've eliminated stretching and most of the audible layer switches, which is terrific, but looping is what keeps me from even considering the purchase of a Kawai (or Yamaha, or Korg, or Casio, etc.).

Pretty please?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1640238 - 03/13/11 04:24 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: dewster]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: KawaiDon
I am not familiar with the upcoming products, but I am quite sure the sound engine from the MP-10 will find it's way into a lighter instrument.

A request: could Kawai please produce a DP that is fully sampled i.e. not looped? You've eliminated stretching and most of the audible layer switches, which is terrific, but looping is what keeps me from even considering the purchase of a Kawai (or Yamaha, or Korg, or Casio, etc.).

Pretty please?


Geez, give it a rest. Do you really have to drag your agenda into yet another thread that clearly has nothing to do with looping? Why not consider the fact the fact that a Kawai representative has taken the time to address a manufacturing issue on this forum even though I'm sure everyone affiliated with Kawai has more grave matters on their mind right now? Do you really feel this is the thread to be moaning about looping once again?

Everyone gets it... despite the fact that you don't even really play piano, you have determined that most DPs are woefully inadequate because of something that you consider of paramount importance. Never mind the fact that countless professional piano players use these inadequate DPs to produce great music.

Why not appreciate the measures Kawai is taking to address a manufacturing/design issue rather than turn a great gesture into yet another opportunity to further your own agenda?


Edited by Hideki Matsui (03/13/11 04:25 PM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1640275 - 03/13/11 05:36 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: Hideki Matsui]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Geez, give it a rest.

Sorry to have upset you Hideki, and I mean that sincerely.

It's not often that reps show up here directly and I didn't want to miss the opportunity to put in a request. I don't think it's all about me, I believe there are others here who want this too.

Others were asking for additional features and new products too, so it's not clear to me why you are singling me out for ridicule.


Edited by dewster (03/13/11 05:48 PM)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1640323 - 03/13/11 07:26 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: Hideki Matsui]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3816
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Geez, give it a rest.
Amen to that.
dewster: Maybe drop the piano and try string theory ... where looping is the name of the game.
smile

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#1640382 - 03/13/11 09:27 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"My main problem with MP6 or MP10 is that I can't find anybody selling them in my area to try them.
And I live in the SF bay area not the lost coast."


Filipi, have you tried Carnes Piano in San Jose? I bought (and first tried out) my mp8ii there. Last I heard, they were thinking about carrying the MP10. Couldn't hurt to call.

Don, thanks for the statement from Kawai. It shows the kind of honesty that makes people respect the company.


Edited by Jeff Clef (03/13/11 09:29 PM)
_________________________
Clef


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#1640504 - 03/14/11 03:57 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: dewster

It's not often that reps show up here directly and I didn't want to miss the opportunity to put in a request. I don't think it's all about me, I believe there are others here who want this too.


Send them a PM, and that's it. Japan now has other problems than non-looping samples... bah
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1640517 - 03/14/11 04:58 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 718
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
dewster, indeed! It's getting really boring... You've got already the SuperMegaExtraTerrestrialNonLoopedPiano in your new Roland smile Why should you care about the others?
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1640521 - 03/14/11 05:07 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: CyberGene]
Manolios Online   happy
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
Why should you care about the others?


Maybe because he's got nothing else to do?

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#1640524 - 03/14/11 05:12 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: CyberGene]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
dewster, indeed! It's getting really boring... You've got already the SuperMegaExtraTerrestrialNonLoopedPiano in your new Roland smile Why should you care about the others?

Probably because he does not want to admit that he's not really satisfied with the artificial & clinical Super Unnatural sound after all, being so terribly overprocessed. In future communication this will be referred to as SU.
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

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#1640549 - 03/14/11 06:34 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: KawaiDon
March 10, 2011

Dear Fellow Keyboardists:

It was with great excitement that Kawai America and Kawai Canada launched our new flagship MP10 Professional Stage Piano at the end of 2010. We believe that this instrument is a tremendous advancement over comparable keyboards in the marketplace—a view echoed by industry experts and media reviews.

After shipments started, we began to receive reports of problems with some MP10 instruments related primarily to uneven key spacing and shipping damage. We immediately reported these issues to our offices in Japan and Kawai America’s technical team began an investigation here. We also made the difficult decision to halt all shipments until the cause of these problems could be determined. While halting shipments is never a preferred option for a manufacturer, we believed this action to be in the best interests of our customers and dealers—and consistent with our longstanding reputation for quality and customer support.

We are now pleased to report that the key spacing problem has been solved and the MP10 packaging has been improved. Kawai America and Kawai Canada will resume shipments to North American dealers immediately. Kawai continues to be proud of our instruments and our excellent reputation for quality and customer service. As the MP10 resumes shipping, we anticipate that it will quickly gain a reputation as the finest stage piano in the industry.

For more information, please feel free to contact us at info@kawaius.com.

Sincerely,

Kawai America / Kawai Canada

Thanks for sharing this with us, Don! thumb
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

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#1640725 - 03/14/11 12:46 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
I LOVE this brand! They have fixed the issues (some of those reported by myself for the CN33 for ex), they care bout customers.

My next stage piano will be from Kawai.

I am upset not being patient enough so I bought the Yamaha CP33 about half a year ago smile

Kawai - on the top of my shopping list.
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1640741 - 03/14/11 01:05 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: TADutchman]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Really first class of Kawai to come on here like this. A big thumbs up to Kawai and to you Don. Thank you.

Originally Posted By: TADutchman
he's not really satisfied with the artificial & clinical Super Unnatural sound after all, being so terribly overprocessed. In future communication this will be referred to as SU.

I understand where dewster is coming from. At the same time, having owned 2 SuperNATURAL stage pianos (RD-700GXF/NX) and played the GXF live, there is a sterility and overall weakness in all of Rolands pianos live. They do sound clinical and cheap, whether SN or non-SN in a live setting. Having gotten used to the NP88's stretched, looped and highly imperfect piano samples, I couldn't go back to the SN piano voices. I would, however, take the PHA II/III Ivory Feel action over the NP88's in a heart beat!


Edited by PianoZac (03/14/11 01:06 PM)
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1641172 - 03/15/11 12:12 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: Jeff Clef]
filipi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"My main problem with MP6 or MP10 is that I can't find anybody selling them in my area to try them.
And I live in the SF bay area not the lost coast."


Filipi, have you tried Carnes Piano in San Jose? I bought (and first tried out) my mp8ii there. Last I heard, they were thinking about carrying the MP10. Couldn't hurt to call.

Don, thanks for the statement from Kawai. It shows the kind of honesty that makes people respect the company.


Thanks Jeff Clef.
I will try them even though it is over 2 hours drive from me.
We have a Kawai dealer in my area but he doesn't want to carry the MP's for the reason KawaiDon mentioned above (not enough margin and too much online competition).
A good music store in San Rafael (Bananas at large) used to carry them a few years ago but for some reason doesn't anymore , and Guitar center doesn't have them either.
If this type of outfit would have the stage pianos it would be even better because we could compare them side by side with the other big brands.

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#1641500 - 03/15/11 01:04 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"I will try them even though it is over 2 hours drive from me..."

I'd call first, in that case. (408) 248-9200; talk to Darlene or Boskurt. There's a big Guitar Center a block or two away from Carnes, if you want to comparison shop.
_________________________
Clef


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#1642038 - 03/16/11 07:15 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
CplusE2 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/15/11
Posts: 1
With the MP10 I see most people talk about how it feels. By the reviews on other post , it seems to be high quality. But compared to the MP6 how is it? It seem the MP6 has more internal sounds also it seem you can not upgrade the sound bank on these. Only record and play wav file thru USB ? Is the RM3 that much better compared to the MP6?

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#1642130 - 03/16/11 10:37 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: CplusE2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: cpluse
Is the RM3 that much better compared to the MP6?


My personal opinion: YES!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1642549 - 03/16/11 10:02 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
the action alone is the reason why im buying mp10. sounds can be substituted by pc.
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1642643 - 03/17/11 02:07 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
pianobear100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/12/05
Posts: 61
Loc: Atlanta
Some of my thoughts on the marketing issues that Kawai seems to have.

Having worked in retail and wholesale of musical instruments 25 years ago, I do understand the issue with Kawai dealers not wanting to carry the MP10.

I am of the thought that the "stage piano" really doesn't fit well in the mix of a Kawai acoutic/home piano line-up. The store then would need to sell monitor speakers or some sort of sound system as these pianos do not have any built in speakers. Complete full line music stores have went the wya of the dinosaur.

When someone is usually looking for a portable piano, they go to places like Sam Ash, Guitar Center, etc. Not a traditional piano store that has acoustic pianos and digitals in home cases. The exception probably would be a church.

Also, the traditional piano store has a protected territory with not any competition unless someone is willing to drive to another state or city. Their starting price is just about anywhere they want to put on the instrument. The consumer doesn't really have a way of knowing the list price or the street price like consumers know in the portable keyboareds. The dealers are always having "fake sales" that these pianos were used by universities, etc. That is just a come on so they can make their product look like a bargain at this particular time and the consumer needs to buy right away to secure that price.

Why does Sam Ash and Guitar Center not carry the Kawai products? I have trouble believing it is because of on-line stores. They are use to dealing with that issue all the time. If not, why would they carry Yamaha, Roland, Korg, etc.
products.

In my experience, Guitar Center & Sam Ash match prices of online stores and when pressed even the local sales tax.

There has to be another reason why Guitar Center and Sam Ash are not carrying Kawai products.

If I had to guess, I would think that it is because of low volumn, these stores only like to stock the best selling models. Or Kawai may be not offering these dealers as good as terms and incentives as Roland and Yamaha?

There are lots of products that these stores do not carry (expecially arranger keyboards). With limited floor space, sales folk who barely know how to turn the instrument on, and so many instruments out there that it is not cost effective to have them all on the floor. Kawai's name is not as well know to professional musicians that play in a rock band.

The solution probably would be for Kawai to stop selling their MP10 to Internet stores. Pressure or incent their acoustic dealers to carry the MP10. It probably wouldn't take much arm twisting if Kawai put the piano on the dealer's floor at no charge. Kawai needs to come out with a portable speaker system designed for the MP10.

Kawai needs to put their foot down and tell the dealers if they want to have the Kawai franchise, then they have to carry their complete line. There are probably smaller/growing keyboard stores in the area who would just about do anything to get a Kawai franchinse. Selling no-name pianos is very difficult. Here in Atlanta, the Yamaha dealer of many years has just lost the franchise and now a 20 store chain hs it. That yamaha dealer had a pretty impressive store, but he must not have done something right.

Of couse, we would have to pay more for the piano's than we currently do, but we would have access to the pianos and sales people who know a lot more about the instruments and service (wooden keys require service) I know as my MP8 has 2 wooden keys that are sticking right now.

I really respect Kawai stand on their quality, but their marketing leave a lot to be desired. They need to figure out who their market is. Look at the people who sing Kawai praises on this site. What kind of music do they play. I traveled all the way to Los Angeles from Atlanta in December to try out the MP10 and Roland's FP7-f. side by side. In 2 hours of playing, I wasn't able to decide a winner. I figured it would be cut and dry. Neither one is perfect, neither one is a bad.
_________________________
Don

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#1642669 - 03/17/11 03:57 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis, pianobear. I think one other consideration is that no one in their right mind buys a real piano over the internet, sight unseen, because every AP is different, and it is how it sounds and plays that concerns us. Not so DPs, that should be of uniform quality (or lack thereof). So we are quite happy to audition a DP for hours at a local store, and then buy it online (I've done it). Problem is, a small local store has a much higher overhead than the online traders, and has to charge more to stay in business. Bottom line: if we are unprepared to pay a small premium for the local bricks and mortar store to make an operating profit, then these stores will eventually die out. Then we end up spending that small premium, or more, flying across the country to audition the latest products at a noisy superstore.

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#1642899 - 03/17/11 01:22 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
"Is the action on the MP10 better than on the MP6" - I would also say 'yes' to that; it's the main selling point for the MP10 after all.

Point is; is it a small 1000 euro better than the RH in the MP6, considering that the AP sound is only a bit better than on the MP6, but not a world of difference.

For me; I was going back and forth for a long time, but comparing all pro's and con's between the two, I just couldn't justify the large sum extra (and getting 10kg extra as a bonus). And if you're not going to carry it around anyway, I would seriously suggest to check out the CA63 , or CA13 instead, if RM3 is the main reason for considering the MP10. I think a price difference between MP6 and MP10 of about € 550 would be more fair and would sell better. Let's say € 350 to € 400 extra for the wooden keybed and the rest for the added electronics. Just my thought...

On topic: the way they seem to have solved the 'problems' with the first batch is a good sign. At least Kawai communicates with the customers and takes notice of their complaints and wishes. Other brands may learn something of that...

J

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#1642905 - 03/17/11 01:33 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: JFP]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: JFP
Let's say € 350 to € 400 extra for the wooden keybed and the rest for the added electronics. Just my thought...


I think it's not too much about the wooden keybed but about a different keyboard action with much longer keys.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1642926 - 03/17/11 02:02 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: 10fingers]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis, pianobear. I think one other consideration is that no one in their right mind buys a real piano over the internet, sight unseen, because every AP is different, and it is how it sounds and plays that concerns us. Not so DPs, that should be of uniform quality (or lack thereof). So we are quite happy to audition a DP for hours at a local store, and then buy it online (I've done it). Problem is, a small local store has a much higher overhead than the online traders, and has to charge more to stay in business. Bottom line: if we are unprepared to pay a small premium for the local bricks and mortar store to make an operating profit, then these stores will eventually die out. Then we end up spending that small premium, or more, flying across the country to audition the latest products at a noisy superstore.


The only board I've bought not from a mom and pop music store was the RD-700NX which I bought from Sweetwater, and mostly because they were the only ones at the time who I knew had RD-700NXs to ship. Needless to say, the NX went back. I bought my CP300/RD700GX(F)/RD300GX and NP88 all from mom and pop music stores. I have chosen to support, even at a premium at times, the smaller full-service mom and pops as opposed to the non-service box house like GC and Sam Ash. Oddly enough, the last 3 keyboards I've bought were discounted (though TN does have a 9.25% sales tax) so I probably paid about parity what I'd pay online, with the added benefit of supporting a place who can service and support me.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1643082 - 03/17/11 06:13 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: PianoZac]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis, pianobear. I think one other consideration is that no one in their right mind buys a real piano over the internet, sight unseen, because every AP is different, and it is how it sounds and plays that concerns us. Not so DPs, that should be of uniform quality (or lack thereof). So we are quite happy to audition a DP for hours at a local store, and then buy it online (I've done it). Problem is, a small local store has a much higher overhead than the online traders, and has to charge more to stay in business. Bottom line: if we are unprepared to pay a small premium for the local bricks and mortar store to make an operating profit, then these stores will eventually die out. Then we end up spending that small premium, or more, flying across the country to audition the latest products at a noisy superstore.


The only board I've bought not from a mom and pop music store was the RD-700NX which I bought from Sweetwater, and mostly because they were the only ones at the time who I knew had RD-700NXs to ship. Needless to say, the NX went back. I bought my CP300/RD700GX(F)/RD300GX and NP88 all from mom and pop music stores. I have chosen to support, even at a premium at times, the smaller full-service mom and pops as opposed to the non-service box house like GC and Sam Ash. Oddly enough, the last 3 keyboards I've bought were discounted (though TN does have a 9.25% sales tax) so I probably paid about parity what I'd pay online, with the added benefit of supporting a place who can service and support me.


to each his own. you are going to pay one way or another. I dont think mom and pop are going to work on your DP for free.

I purchased a pearl river in 2003 from a local dealer. I havent used them since the free tuning.


Edited by craig1999871 (03/17/11 06:14 PM)
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play that one again sam

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#1643244 - 03/17/11 10:36 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
AldoEsplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
the action alone is the reason why im buying mp10. sounds can be substituted by pc.
That was exactly my thought when I bought it. I expected to use it as a MIDI controller with a PC supplying the sound. Out of the box, I wasn't blown away by the sound. But now that I've had time to tweak it a little, the sound is one of the things I'm most impressed with. I use the MP10 as my primary piano sound with it recorded to a thumb drive, and importing the wav file into my DAW. I've lost almost all interest in the software pianos I was looking at getting next.

Half-pedaling and re-pedaling are quite well done. Sympathetic resonance is very well implemented. Highs are delicate and clear. Lows are thunderous and rich. I found it needed a few dB boost around 350-500 Hz (which is no big deal with the sweepable mid).

It's also very easy to use and intuitive. I hardly cracked open the manual (sorry James).

And the action is fantastic.

Back on topic, I did get one of the defective units. But, Kawai's customer service was exceptional. Open and honest, and very much a "we're going to make it right" attitude. And thanks KawaiDon for being so forthcoming with information.

Aldo

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#1643336 - 03/18/11 02:21 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: AldoEsplay]
pianobear100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/12/05
Posts: 61
Loc: Atlanta
The store I flew out to try out the MP10 and FP&F was Pierre's in Los Angeles. I (and Pierre) was the only one in the store. Ideal situation to compare instruements. If I decide to buy one of these instruments, I will order it from him. I feel confident that I will not be overpaying for the instrument at his store. He knows his products and after our dicussion, I know he will make me a more than fare deal. The flight across contry is not so bad if you plan a visit to DisneyLand too. I always visit local music stores when I take a vacation. Mixing pleasure with more pleasure.

On repair by Mom & Pop music stores. They may not fix it free forever, but they have a repair staff that knows what they are doing, especially when it comes to these complicated actions that are being put in these high end digital pianos. My experience with other companies that have fixed my digital instruments in the past have not been positive. Of course, the tunings were not free, but the repair work was,

Steinway was still doing free waranty work on my instrument up to 10 years.

On my Kawai MP8 with the 2 wooden sticky keys, I don't know who to trust. Trust an electronic's guy who is not skilled in regulation of actions, or trust a piano tuner to take the digital piano apart. That both are scary to me.

Kawai support have said they will help me take the piano apart myself over the phone or send me instructions on how to do it. Then when it is in pieces, I am going to call the piano tuner to regulate. I think that is my safest bet. Luckily my faher was a TV repairman so I feel some confidence in tearing into electronic things.

Another reason I haven't decided on another instrument is that I still love my MP8. I know the action is quicker and the black notes play evener with the white keys, but I'm not for sure my MP8 isn't more responsive in eveness of loud and soft for the type of music I like to play. Also, I need to listen to the piano/string pad combination. It is fabulous in my opion on the MP8. I need more time on the MP10 as I not for sure the string pad is the same.

I guess I need to take a vacation and see where Liberace is buried and go to Pierr's again. smile
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Don

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#1643351 - 03/18/11 03:17 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: pianobear100]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

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#1643532 - 03/18/11 12:14 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
PianoZac Offline
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: craig1999871

to each his own. you are going to pay one way or another. I dont think mom and pop are going to work on your DP for free.

I purchased a pearl river in 2003 from a local dealer. I havent used them since the free tuning.

Well, I've decided I'll pay more to support smaller, better service mom and pops. It's a choice I made because waling into GC is like walking into Wal-Mart, which I also don't go into. We can't hardly complain about no service and nowhere to test instruments out if all we're after is a cheaper price. Don brings up a good point, and that's not the first time I've heard that the online retailers are killing the mom and pops. I tried to demo an RG-1F and when I talked to Roland, the dealer they referred me to had none and couldn't afford to keep them because of competition from the online retailers. Not every mom and pop knows what they're doing, and won't always give you the best service, but try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1643589 - 03/18/11 02:38 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9152
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Well said.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1643599 - 03/18/11 02:58 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3047
Loc: Oregon
OT. James, are you in the UK or still in Japan? How are things for Kawai and everyone you know in Japan?
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#1643631 - 03/18/11 04:22 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: PianoZac]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
[quote=craig1999871] try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.

and I dont shop there either. Ya if mom and pop were so good we wouldnt even be online talking in a forum. We would have all the info from mom and pop already lol.

I understand what your saying but this is the way the world is turning. Everything online. For the most part this is a good thing really. Keeps competition going stronger, I can easily find products that are great and have reviews from people like me to help me along. Ya everything has its drawbacks like not having a local person to rely on. Guess to each his own.


Edited by craig1999871 (03/18/11 04:25 PM)
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play that one again sam

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#1643645 - 03/18/11 04:47 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Kawai rocks! Kawai makes some of the absolute best consumer grade acoustic pianos in the world and I absolutely love my RX-2.

However, as Kawai James has repeated here on numerous occasions: you should only buy a piano from a local dealer that allows you to audition the instrument and who will be around to service it. For most of us, given that there are none at all local retail outlets that are interested in selling and servicing Kawai and actually do so, that will mean being forced to choose a different brand that is sold and supported by our local dealers.

We have some amazing Mom and Pop music stores where I live. Many of them deserve our business and we will have to respect the decisions they make in merchandising and editing the assortments they choose to offer to the consumer, which here locally means Yamaha, Roland, Korg and Nord.

However, there will also always be those who play the full lineup of Yamaha and Roland digital pianos locally and then order their unit from a dealer offering a competitive price whether or not they are the closest dealer. What really are they risking? After all, how many threads have we read on this forum about Yamaha or Roland pianos being DOA or needing technical servicing from a local dealer?

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#1643667 - 03/18/11 05:36 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3580
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
[quote=craig1999871] try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.

and I dont shop there either. Ya if mom and pop were so good we wouldnt even be online talking in a forum. We would have all the info from mom and pop already lol.

I understand what your saying but this is the way the world is turning. Everything online. For the most part this is a good thing really. Keeps competition going stronger, I can easily find products that are great and have reviews from people like me to help me along. Ya everything has its drawbacks like not having a local person to rely on. Guess to each his own.


Actually it's not such a good thing if all retailing trends towards online. It means you will not be able to try anything out before buying. Relying on user reviews doesn't get around the problem of buying "feel" related products. Some things you need to try to know if you want it. I think it's pretty unethical when people spend an afternoon in a real store trying everything out, asking questions, taking brochures, and then walk out the door to go home and find it online. Don't you think that privilege of trying it out is worth something? Are we not all part of a community? Wouldn't it be better to support people in our local area? The attitude of "cheapest always wins" has costs that aren't immediately apparent, but they are there and you will discover it eventually.

In today's market place, the real store is struggling to compete and they will drop their price to the lowest they can. That's the price that I think is fair to pay - especially if you use their instruments to make your decision. People who go to a store and waste somebody's time with no intention of buying there are unethical. I look forward to the day that governments rethink their tax policies to give real retailers a chance to compete with onliners. Geez, don't we spend enough time indoors at home channeling our whole lives through our computers?

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#1643676 - 03/18/11 05:51 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: voxpops]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9152
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
voxpops, I'm in the UK now. My travel arrangements were changed, so I ended up flying out of Osaka (Kansai) on Monday morning, rather than Tokyo (Narita) on Saturday afternoon.

As I believe I may have mentioned in a separate thread, my trip to England was booked several weeks ago. While it's obviously nice to catch-up with my family after a few years away, I feel a strong desire to return to my adopted homeland and contribute to Japan in whatever way I can.

Regarding the situation at Kawai, I believe everything at the head office in Hamamatsu is running as normal, however a number of Kawai stores and music schools in the north of the country have been affected. All Kawai employees are being encouraged to donate towards relief/rebuilding efforts.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1643677 - 03/18/11 05:53 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
[quote=craig1999871] try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.

and I dont shop there either. Ya if mom and pop were so good we wouldnt even be online talking in a forum. We would have all the info from mom and pop already lol.

I understand what your saying but this is the way the world is turning. Everything online. For the most part this is a good thing really. Keeps competition going stronger, I can easily find products that are great and have reviews from people like me to help me along. Ya everything has its drawbacks like not having a local person to rely on. Guess to each his own.


Actually it's not such a good thing if all retailing trends towards online. It means you will not be able to try anything out before buying. Relying on user reviews doesn't get around the problem of buying "feel" related products. Some things you need to try to know if you want it. I think it's pretty unethical when people spend an afternoon in a real store trying everything out, asking questions, taking brochures, and then walk out the door to go home and find it online. Don't you think that privilege of trying it out is worth something? Are we not all part of a community? Wouldn't it be better to support people in our local area? The attitude of "cheapest always wins" has costs that aren't immediately apparent, but they are there and you will discover it eventually.

In today's market place, the real store is struggling to compete and they will drop their price to the lowest they can. That's the price that I think is fair to pay - especially if you use their instruments to make your decision. People who go to a store and waste somebody's time with no intention of buying there are unethical. I look forward to the day that governments rethink their tax policies to give real retailers a chance to compete with onliners. Geez, don't we spend enough time indoors at home channeling our whole lives through our computers?


How about if you go to your local dealer and spend hours of their time auditioning their Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Nord pianos that they have displayed at considerable expense and merchandising risk and then you go and buy a Kawai from the only source possible -- a dealer far away. Isn't that even more unethical in your book?

Successful manufacturers realize that they are not just responsible for putting together a decent keyboard, but that they must actually also dominate the entire supply chain from marketing to package design to dealer network building in order to be able to solve the problems of their consumers: their playing problems but also their selection and shopping problems.

For reliable, mainstream instruments that are designed right, manufactured with care, packaged and shipped professionally, etc. the value added from having a place to audition is actually quite small: much smaller than the cost that a local dealer must spend in order to provide these services in most cases.

How do most people buy stage pianos these days? You ask around, read publications and forums, you try one out wherever you can or you just order it and return it if you don't like it.

The conundrum for Kawai is that their top of the line hybrid wood/plastic product seems to not be able to be shipped reliably and needs the most attention from a local dealer to correct regulation problems while at the same time they have some of the spottiest local retail distribution in the business. The fact that they still sell so many instruments is a true and paramount monument to the brand loyalty of their existing customers and to the perceived quality of their products. Chapeau.

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#1643680 - 03/18/11 05:56 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
[quote=craig1999871] try getting any meaningful service and advice from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, or many of the big box houses. To my surprise, Sweetwater actually has a pretty good staff.

and I dont shop there either. Ya if mom and pop were so good we wouldnt even be online talking in a forum. We would have all the info from mom and pop already lol.

I understand what your saying but this is the way the world is turning. Everything online. For the most part this is a good thing really. Keeps competition going stronger, I can easily find products that are great and have reviews from people like me to help me along. Ya everything has its drawbacks like not having a local person to rely on. Guess to each his own.


Actually it's not such a good thing if all retailing trends towards online. It means you will not be able to try anything out before buying. Relying on user reviews doesn't get around the problem of buying "feel" related products. Some things you need to try to know if you want it. I think it's pretty unethical when people spend an afternoon in a real store trying everything out, asking questions, taking brochures, and then walk out the door to go home and find it online. Don't you think that privilege of trying it out is worth something? Are we not all part of a community? Wouldn't it be better to support people in our local area? The attitude of "cheapest always wins" has costs that aren't immediately apparent, but they are there and you will discover it eventually.

In today's market place, the real store is struggling to compete and they will drop their price to the lowest they can. That's the price that I think is fair to pay - especially if you use their instruments to make your decision. People who go to a store and waste somebody's time with no intention of buying there are unethical. I look forward to the day that governments rethink their tax policies to give real retailers a chance to compete with onliners. Geez, don't we spend enough time indoors at home channeling our whole lives through our computers?

+ 1 Extremely well put ando.

Quick story on my Nord...but when I went to buy it, the guys quoted me a price which including local sales tax of 9.25% put me about $250 north of what I knew I could get online. That $250 could've got me the NP88 plus the Nord gig bag. But I went in the store several times, talked to the guys quite a bit, and decided that $250 was worth the satisfaction of knowing I'm helping the place out.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1643688 - 03/18/11 06:08 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9152
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: theJourney
However, as Kawai James has repeated here on numerous occasions: you should only buy a piano from a local dealer that allows you to audition the instrument and who will be around to service it.


Well, I encourage consumers to support local dealers, especially if they feel that the store provides a pleasant environment in which to play-test various instruments, and the sales staff are accommodating to their needs. However, I don't believe I've ever stated that consumers should only purchase from local dealers.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1643717 - 03/18/11 06:47 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: theJourney

The conundrum for Kawai is that their top of the line hybrid wood/plastic product seems to not be able to be shipped reliably and needs the most attention from a local dealer to correct regulation problems while at the same time they have some of the spottiest local retail distribution in the business. The fact that they still sell so many instruments is a true and paramount monument to the brand loyalty of their existing customers and to the perceived quality of their products. Chapeau.


Ouch!!! Mr. KAWAI-bashing is back! Is it all starting over again??? It was so nice and peaceful the last few months with reasonable statements from all contributors in this forum. The conundrum for theJourney is: Why do good things always come to an end?
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#1643852 - 03/18/11 11:40 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: theJourney]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3580
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: theJourney


How about if you go to your local dealer and spend hours of their time auditioning their Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Nord pianos that they have displayed at considerable expense and merchandising risk and then you go and buy a Kawai from the only source possible -- a dealer far away. Isn't that even more unethical in your book?


No, that's different because you are trying competing products in good faith. ie, you haven't decided before you even go in there that you aren't going to buy anything from them. I'm talking about how some people don't even engage in talk of a deal with the salesperson because they just want to use their shop to play around then buy elsewhere. Surely people should give retailers a chance to get close to those online retailers?

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#1644173 - 03/19/11 03:35 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
are any of you store owners by any chance?
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1644486 - 03/20/11 01:49 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
are any of you store owners by any chance?

Not I.

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#1644493 - 03/20/11 02:24 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: ando


Actually it's not such a good thing if all retailing trends towards online. It means you will not be able to try anything out before buying.



You can't try them out anyway at least not at the same store you would buy them from. The only store where you could reasonably expect to see a range of stage piano's in either Melbourne or Sydney is Allens big city store and they price everything at full retail plus even more sometimes.
Online retailing with generous return policies slaughters the pathetic excuse for musical retailing we have in Australia. I travel all over the world playing and Australia is the worst country for music stores in terms of stock, knowledge, competition, service and pricing.
Online retailing is run in Australia by a few small specialist stores that generally know more, stock more, and price less then the big stores like Allens.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1644506 - 03/20/11 03:44 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: Dr Popper]
Siriosys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 136
Loc: Auckland, NZ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper

Australia is the worst country for music stores in terms of stock, knowledge, competition, service and pricing.


LOL..........you wanna come over here to NZ, I think Aussie will get a run for it's money in that regard!!!!.......

We're such a small market, that the importer is basically the same as the retailer retailer which means if you want Nord product for example and you've had a bad run with the ONLY retailer chain that has them........you're screwed......... the game Monopoly comes to mind.........
_________________________
Nord Stage 2, VAX77

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#1644507 - 03/20/11 03:55 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
Siriosys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 136
Loc: Auckland, NZ
oh by the way, completely ON topic, big thumbs up and thanks to Kawai, and specifically KawaiDon for coming forward with an announcement on what's happening to resolve the issue. Really good to see and just shows Kawais level of commitment to their customers and also probably a bit of Kaizen being pratised too.
_________________________
Nord Stage 2, VAX77

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#1644634 - 03/20/11 11:23 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: theJourney


How about if you go to your local dealer and spend hours of their time auditioning their Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Nord pianos that they have displayed at considerable expense and merchandising risk and then you go and buy a Kawai from the only source possible -- a dealer far away. Isn't that even more unethical in your book?


No, that's different because you are trying competing products in good faith. ie, you haven't decided before you even go in there that you aren't going to buy anything from them. I'm talking about how some people don't even engage in talk of a deal with the salesperson because they just want to use their shop to play around then buy elsewhere. Surely people should give retailers a chance to get close to those online retailers?


Yes. I understand. This is certainly an issue for traditional retailers, especially with the availability of relatively high levels of service and low prices from (inter)national web and mail order companies. However, from the point of view of the consumer, I think it is hard to say categorically that it is unethical to not buy from a (local) store that you have shopped at. If you went shopping for a new suit you wouldn't feel strange not buying it from the store that didn't have a friendly and competent tailor with the suit you wanted that fit you for the price you wanted. Why would it be different for digital pianos?

1. What happens if you have three local stores to choose your Kawai MP10 from? Is it unethical to shop at all three? If you shop at all three, is it unethical to choose the one you want to buy from for your own personal reasons? Is it unethical to only buy from one at all, or should you buy the stage piano from one, the bench from the second and the pedal unit from the third to reward them all somewhat for having spent time with you and demonstrated the products?

2. What happens if, as James mentions, there is also the matter of your comfort with a given dealer. If you aren't treated well by the local dealer, or you don't trust them after the sales talk, or they weren't very helpful and didn't have product knowledge, are you still ethically obligated to buy from them?

3. What if the only thing you disagree on is the terms and conditions of the sale in general and the price in particular and the local dealer without providing any additional delivery or other service wants to charge you 20% more than a direct channel. You did spend an in his store after all. Are you still ethically obligated to buy from him or her making that hour one of your most costliest hours spent anywhere ever?

4. You might also have spent an hour on the phone with an experienced and knowledgeable product specialist at the out of town direct sales retailer. Are you not under a similar obligation to buy from them? Especially if they were offering better advice and faster delivery besides their lower price?

I am sure you will agree that it is a bit more complicated than simply saying that it is unethical.

The best way for a local dealer to make the sale is to merchandise and stock the products that are right for their local market, ensure having the product in stock and being able to deliver it faster and easier than an out of town dealer and to set prices that are equivalent to or not unreasonably higher than the market level street price that anyone with an internet connection can control. That is what our most successful local retailer does and he sells digital pianos by the full truckload every quarter.

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#1644751 - 03/20/11 03:42 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...should you buy the stage piano from one, the bench from the second and the pedal unit from the third to reward them all somewhat...?"

This is what I've done, partly to try to be fair with all, and partly from the angle of enlightened self-interest, which tells me that I would like all the music places to be there for me next time. Also, it's good for me if the retailers know who I am and what my interests are, when I look in at their place of business... even if that 'place' is at the end of a wire.
_________________________
Clef


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#1644786 - 03/20/11 05:11 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: theJourney]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3580
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: theJourney

I am sure you will agree that it is a bit more complicated than simply saying that it is unethical.

I believe I made this point very clearly but I'll state it one more time. I believe it is unethical to use a store as your personal try-out park if you have no intention of even talking to the staff about their best deal. There are people out there who assume that online is always the cheapest, and they use stores to try things, tell the salesperson they are just looking, then go home and order it online. I would like to see people who visit stores at least support them to the extent that they give them a chance to compete ie. engage in some bargaining and see what they can do for you. I also think that paying a little bit more is usually worth it to establish a solid relationship with a local supplier. That will usually lead to better deals and better service in the future. Quite often, once shipping and insurance are factored in, the real store is pretty competitive - it's just that the myth of Online is where the bargains are has really taken hold. They have collected plenty of data in recent years which shows the retail sector is shrinking and online is growing. This has many negative flow on effects for the community.

Playing stores off against each other isn't unethical because they are all in a position to compete for your business and their showrooms are there to persuade you to consider them. I am talking about the type of person who has already decided where they are going to buy something (online) and using real stores for playing, pretending they are interested to salespeople (wasting their time), collecting brochures, lying by saying, "I'll have to think about it", then going home and clicking Buy This Item with a mouse.

If we extend the logic of always going by price, eventually there will be practically no physical stores and we will all be buying things untried. Make no mistake, retail is haemorrhaging at the moment from competition from online sellers. Online sellers are exempt from a lot of expenses and taxes that real retailers have to pay. It's generally bad for our society to support things that shrink the workforce and reduce public capital. Yes, I know people will generally go with price despite anything I say. It still depresses me to think how things are trending.

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#1644835 - 03/20/11 06:53 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
+1 ando

With this caveat: we all do things that are unethical from time to time, so I wouldn't censure folks whose transgressions are slightly different from mine. However, if you find you are lying in order to get ahead, that's not usually a good thing.

At the other end of this discussion is this question: how healthy is it for our lives to become more and more connected to a computer screen, and less and less connected to real people? Yes, I enjoy this forum and the shared advice, and the sense of community, but it is no substitute for real, in-the-flesh relationships, (don't take that the wrong way), like shopping in our own community.

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#1644836 - 03/20/11 06:57 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
lol I just can't imagine people raising such a stink about buying online.


Edited by craig1999871 (03/20/11 06:57 PM)
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1644899 - 03/20/11 09:00 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: craig son of berg]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3580
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
lol I just can't imagine people raising such a stink about buying online.


No one is - read the posts carefully. A particular situation is being described. If after having read it, you still think it's the way to go, go for it. It just means you are part of the "me" generation.


For the record, there are lots of things I buy online. I just don't use normal retailers, spending hours of their time and pretending like I'm going to buy from them, then go home and buy online. If I am on the fence, I'll tell the salesperson upfront that I have seen the same product online and state the price - then I ask how low can they go. Sometimes they will match or get pretty close. If they can't get close enough, I leave and stop wasting their time.

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#1644954 - 03/20/11 11:23 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
dewar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 139
why not. Because major retailers wanted to make you waste your gas by making you step into their store they are now a product for your ogling pleasure.

For instance while sifting through some kawai's I noticed the store carried the p155 (Gotta say the keys nice but not great, and with a good set of speakers I think the sound could be great) He wanted to sell it and the stand for I think 1400 plus tax.

I mentioned I could get not only the keyboard and stand but also the bench and bunch of other crap in a bundle for less. Yet he remained that the good price was there, even though from the looks of it that keyboard had sat with it's freind dust for a bit.

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#1644974 - 03/20/11 11:49 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: dewar]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3580
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: dewar
why not. Because major retailers wanted to make you waste your gas by making you step into their store they are now a product for your ogling pleasure.

For instance while sifting through some kawai's I noticed the store carried the p155 (Gotta say the keys nice but not great, and with a good set of speakers I think the sound could be great) He wanted to sell it and the stand for I think 1400 plus tax.

I mentioned I could get not only the keyboard and stand but also the bench and bunch of other crap in a bundle for less. Yet he remained that the good price was there, even though from the looks of it that keyboard had sat with it's freind dust for a bit.


Well that wouldn't really fall into the category I was talking about, would it?

Look, I've made my point pretty clearly. I can't do much if people throw up supposed counter-examples which have nothing to do with the point I have made. If you don't agree with me, fine. You don't have to, but don't try and twist what I was actually saying. At no stage have I advocated people accepting crappy deals from anyone.

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#1645064 - 03/21/11 06:04 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
BTW: This thread is called "Kawai MP10 Statement", not "Is it unethical to test at retailers shop and buy online?"
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1645066 - 03/21/11 06:09 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: mucci]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3580
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: mucci
BTW: This thread is called "Kawai MP10 Statement", not "Is it unethical to test at retailers shop and buy online?"


Welcome to your first internet forum. FYI, threads very rarely stay on topic, much like any conversation...

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#1645126 - 03/21/11 10:18 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
moderator please? ando kicked me... mad

Buuaaaaahh!!! cry cry cry

wink
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1645130 - 03/21/11 10:20 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: mucci]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3580
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: mucci
moderator please? ando kicked me... mad

Buuaaaaahh!!! cry cry cry

wink


I'm tough, but fair... wink

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#1645140 - 03/21/11 10:39 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: ando]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3047
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: mucci
BTW: This thread is called "Kawai MP10 Statement", not "Is it unethical to test at retailers shop and buy online?"


Welcome to your first internet forum. FYI, threads very rarely stay on topic, much like any conversation...

As a freelance scientist, I can say with certainty that if you divide the number of contributors by the square root of the available information, and take away the content of those who post the same sentences no matter the original question, threads stay on topic for 34.7956% of their final length.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1645157 - 03/21/11 11:15 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: KawaiDon]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 718
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Bulgaria is a very weird country and everything is the direct contrary of what's considered normal in the rest of the world smile

For example, our Kawai dealer offers lower prices than online stores. How they do manage to achieve this is beyond my understanding... However they do not have many models for testing except for the least expensive CN-series. They can't afford keeping expensive models available and you have to order blindly. And there is no chance of returning anything once you've bought it. So, despite being retailer, they are in fact a kind of an "online store" - it's cheap but you can't try before buy smile

Our Yamaha dealers used to charge extremely high and to some degree keep doing it. However in addition to their retail services, they began offering an unique online service recently. You choose anything (whatever it is) in Thomann.de and they can deliver it to you free of charge, so you pay only the listed price. You don't even have to go to their office, instead you fill a form on their website. However the service is not advertised and there is no link to it on their main site, thus is unknown to many people. Which leads to interesting situations. For example, I went into their shop and saw they sell Sennheiser HD-595 headphones for 165 Euro. Then I opened Thomann.de and saw the same headphones for 130 Euro. I asked them and then they agreed to sell me their pair for the lower price. However if another person unaware of the thomann service wanted to buy those, they would have sold them for the higher price of course...
So, in another sense, they have become an online store but keeping a pinch of retailer flavour smile Welcome to Bulgaria as we say!


Edited by CyberGene (03/21/11 11:15 AM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1645168 - 03/21/11 11:41 AM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: CyberGene]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
For example, I went into their shop and saw they sell Sennheiser HD-595 headphones for 165 Euro. Then I opened Thomann.de and saw the same headphones for 130 Euro. I asked them and then they agreed to sell me their pair for the lower price. However if another person unaware of the thomann service wanted to buy those, they would have sold them for the higher price of course...


Same here in Munich at my favorurite music retail store. They offer a guarantee: They will sell you all of their stock for the lowest internet price in Germany you can find (from a reputable online-store, whatever that means). Normally that's Thomann.de, so I can buy local and always get the low Thomann prices.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1645360 - 03/21/11 05:22 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: mucci]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3580
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: mucci


Same here in Munich at my favorurite music retail store. They offer a guarantee: They will sell you all of their stock for the lowest internet price in Germany you can find (from a reputable online-store, whatever that means). Normally that's Thomann.de, so I can buy local and always get the low Thomann prices.

That's very impressive. thumb

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#1645362 - 03/21/11 05:23 PM Re: Kawai MP-10 Statement [Re: voxpops]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3580
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: mucci
BTW: This thread is called "Kawai MP10 Statement", not "Is it unethical to test at retailers shop and buy online?"


Welcome to your first internet forum. FYI, threads very rarely stay on topic, much like any conversation...

As a freelance scientist, I can say with certainty that if you divide the number of contributors by the square root of the available information, and take away the content of those who post the same sentences no matter the original question, threads stay on topic for 34.7956% of their final length.


Well, at least now we know what to expect... cool

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