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#1646854 - 03/23/11 10:16 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat
I had extremely slow downloads on my dropbox as I checked it for speed a sec ago... I'll try to find alternative servers.

Downloaded it all in less than a minute!
Kees

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#1646890 - 03/23/11 11:36 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Kees, here's my input:

Quote:
How should the 4th and 5th be tuned to have "exactly the same tempered
sound"? Equal beating?


judging from my own experiences in aural tuning, I'll stick my neck out once more in this thread and propose that "the same sound" between a 5th and 4th gives a beating relationship of 2:3. Especially as Bill states "don't count beats". A 5th with 2 bps and a 4th with 3 bps "sound the same" to me, and I dare to propose that this is the general perception of most tuners.

Originally Posted By: Bill

Tuning from E3 to C3.

After completing the F3 to F4 temperament octave, begin tuning the rest
of the low tenor starting with E3. First tune a reasonable sounding
octave from E4, then compare E3 with the 4th and 5th above it and adjust
E3 so that the octave still sounds reasonable but the 4th and 5th beat
exactly the same or as nearly to that as possible. You can cause the 5th
to be slightly less tempered sounding than the 4th but not at the
expense of creating an obvious beat in the octave. The important thing
is to have all three, octave, 4th and 5th sound reasonable.



Originally Posted By: Kees

Two issues:
(1) What do you want ideally? Have the 5th and 4th beat proportionally
according to the rations of ET, or beat exactly equal?

(2) What is a "reasonable octave" precisely? I checked in my software
that the 1:2 or 4:2 octave does not beat faster than either the 4th or
5th. In practice the octave beat rate is always much slower, so this
check is superfluous (for a computer which makes no errors).



(1) Bill wants the character of the temperament range (F3-F4) stretched in a way that avoids the two pitfalls: 1) beating fifths in the midrange, 2) losing the character of that same interval in the temperament.

I agree, this is the hardest part.

(2) First, tune the octave so that it sounds good. The only criteria here is equal, or wider, than 2:1. Then listen to the 5th. It will sound narrow. Widen the octave as much as you like, without 1) losing the temperament character of the interval, 2) getting a really wild 4th.

Quote:

So D#3 and D3 are tuned with the same method as E3.


D#3 should be no problem. The temperament has a nice G#3/A#3-D#4. Just stretch it by the slightest amount, and you'll find D#3 very forgiving.
BUT don't overstretch it, because then you'll get problems at G4 (more on this in due time smile

Quote:

Should the 4th and 5th above C#3 have the same relation
as for D3? If so, how does tuning C#3 differ from tuning D3? In practice
the octave is never a problem here, but I need to know if the 4th above
C#3 should be purer than the 5th above it, or the same, or in the usual
ET beat proportion.



D3 is as much of a choice as D5. I personally favor a twangy D3-G3 to a narrow D3-A3. That is, I favor the 5th.

As for C#3, it should be wide of 4:2. C#3-G#3 should definitely be purer than D3-A3. D3-A3 is fighting to widen towards pure, C#3-G#3 has pure as its starting point, with possibilities of widening!. C#3-G#3 should never ever be narrow - if anything, it should be slightly wide of 4:2 (and/or 6:3). So, it's not an ET relationship (because G#3-C#4 is pure.) We have to try to find the maths for keeping the character of a pure 4th even if we widen it slightly. I would suggest that a 6:3 C#3-C#4 would be the best choice. This (I hope) corresponds with my aural tuning.

Quote:

I understand whatever method is used for C#3 should be used for C3.


Yes, very much the same - this time a fourth at the bottom. The octave widths of C#3-C#4 and C3-C4 would have to be very similar.


Quote:

So what is the desired relation between the beat speed of C#4-F#4 and
B3-F#4? Equal? 4th slower? 5th slower?


mathwise - it's at least fifth/fourth 2:3. Whatever the preferences on stretch, 2:3 is a good starting point.
I can vouch for that bill never goes below equal beating in this area, and probably not ever below 2:3 either. At least I haven't heard him tune that way. From here on, 4th/5th 2:3 is the minimum stretch.

Quote:

So what is the desired relation between the beat speeds of the 5th and
4th below G4? Not the same as we have to "favor slightly the sound of the
5th over both the 4th and the octave". The octave here is always beating much slower at the 2:1
and 4:2 level and seems to play no role. In my implementation I made the
5th beat 2/3 as fast as the 4th.


Yes, 2:3 is the mean from now on. If D5 can't be solved, you'll have go down and lower G4 slightly (as I had to do when I recorded yesterday)

Quote:

So whatever the precise method for G4 is is what we use for A4.

If a 6:3 works for G3-G4, that's fine. Most of the time, it doesn't. D5 will showel it back to something between 4:2 and 6:3.

Quote:

What beat ratio you want here for the D#3-A#4 5th and the F4-A#4 4th?

minimum 5th/4th 2:3, Bill probably tunes a tiny bit wider. This note is forgiving, because the fifths and 4ths below are so close to pure, so I think 2:3 is a good starting point for calculations.

Quote:

The way I understand it, we should tune and equal beating D4-D5 4:2 octave and
G4-D5 3:2 fifth here.

Yes, and be prepared to go back and lower G4 if it was a little too optimistically stretched earlier. That happens to me about 50% of the time, but again, I do the same in ET - my higher 4ths/5ths point out problems lower down.

Note that Bill accepts more of a beat in the D4-D5 octave than I tend to do, so if you're in doubt about this, go with Bill's instructions.

Quote:

The way I understand it, we should D#5 and E5 with the same method as
D5.

D#5 is easy aurally - just a tiny bit narrow of a pure G#4-D#5.
(G#3-D#4) is a very "clean-sounding" 5th to begin with, and with the stretch added, you will get close to pure. Not quite there, but almost.

E5 is closely related to B4. Whatever we spoke about earlier, the math for B4 should work for E5 smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1646892 - 03/23/11 11:38 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: pppat
I had extremely slow downloads on my dropbox as I checked it for speed a sec ago... I'll try to find alternative servers.

Downloaded it all in less than a minute!
Kees


Ok, then it's just me being living in the periphery smile Glad it worked out.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1646893 - 03/23/11 11:42 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Thanks Pat, that's a lot of data. I appreciate your effort.
It will take me a little while to analyze.

Kees
No problem at all, Kees, I appreciate your dedication! Like I said earlier, I really think we are on the right track here, and there is no need to hurry.

If we don't find a mainstream solution, it might be a good idea to start thinking open source (as you hinted at a long time ago) wink
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1646905 - 03/24/11 12:06 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Thanks Pat, but to tune mathematically we have to avoid anything imprecise like "good" "wild" "character" "forgiving".

Remember the goal is to create a computer tuning, not to clarify an aural tuning method for aural tuners. I need precise numbers!

Kees

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#1646906 - 03/24/11 12:07 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Here are two more files from the same recording session. Both are with single strings only, and very revealing.

I won't need to excuse myself about false beats and such, I am sure you can hear them in the upper treble. There might also be personal preferences in the outer ranges, but aside from that I've tried to stay as faithful to Bill's temperament as possible.

I wanted to post these two files just so that any aspiring tuner could hear what single string EBVT III might sound like, and possibly to get encouraged to leave them just like that smile It takes a while to let go of ET, but if you want to tune a good EBVT III, you have to.

I have often dwelled too much on the single strings, just to find that three plain strings sounding together will give much more leeway.

Here is a file with all kinds of chromatic checks. This goes to show the chromatic irregularity that HAS to be there.

interval runs aka checks for knitpicking (mp3/320kbs/35MB)

It is definitely true for 3rds, 6ths and 10ths, but it is also true (albeit to a lesser amount) for 5ths, 12ths and octaves. Still, there should be nothing that makes you cringe. And if there is, any such sensitivity should be reduced when all three strings come into play wink

Lastly, here are some free playing, harmonic progressions through different keys. With only one string open, I can relate to a heritage of tuning... regarding both sound and temperament.

harmonic progressions through different key (mp3/320kbs/8MB)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1646908 - 03/24/11 12:15 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Thanks Pat, but to tune mathematically we have to avoid anything imprecise like "good" "wild" "character" "forgiving".

Remember the goal is to create a computer tuning, not to clarify an aural tuning method for aural tuners. I need precise numbers!

Kees


smile I know, Kees, but I think we will pinch them down using these recordings. I believe I can explain every single note. At least I do so now... until you start grilling me wink
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1647339 - 03/24/11 05:44 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat

Quote:
How should the 4th and 5th be tuned to have "exactly the same tempered
sound"? Equal beating?

judging from my own experiences in aural tuning, I'll stick my neck out once more in this thread and propose that "the same sound" between a 5th and 4th gives a beating relationship of 2:3. Especially as Bill states "don't count beats". A 5th with 2 bps and a 4th with 3 bps "sound the same" to me, and I dare to propose that this is the general perception of most tuners.

However that contradicts Bill's tuning instructions on his web page which states the 4th and 5th below E4 should be exactly equal beating and similar for the 4th and 5th above F#3.

I'm sure the difference is very small, but we should be precise at least in the temperament octave. I'll go with Bill's website recipe for now unless I hear otherwise.

Kees

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#1647381 - 03/24/11 07:16 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Kees

I'm sure the difference is very small, but we should be precise at least in the temperament octave. I'll go with Bill's website recipe for now unless I hear otherwise.


Yes, that would be a good idea. I also tune those equal-beating. But I don't hear them as "sounding the same". As this is, again, subjective, you should follow Bill's given temperament. You are right - things like "sounding the same" are hard to implement in maths wink

Here are my RCT readings for the tuning I did. Some funny outer range values, but that was expected smile



Edited by pppat (03/24/11 07:59 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1647406 - 03/24/11 07:56 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Pat, I did the analysis on the midrange C3-B4. My program scored 92.5% on the temperament octave, 86.5% on the whole midrange, treating your tuning as the "master" tuning. There are no errors larger than 1 cent (rounded down).

I think your F is a bit high. I measured your F3A3 beat rate electronically and it is 6.4 bps. As everything is based on this interval there are other discrepancies such as your E being on the high side.

Another thing occurred to me is that if you adjust E4 for EBVT3 according to Bill's original equal beating instructions (A3E4 and B3E4 equal beating) it comes out a touch lower that when you make them proportional. For the F#3 the effect is reversed, resulting in a somewhat better CE and somewhat wider DF#.

I will continue with the rest soon.

Kees

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#1647412 - 03/24/11 08:14 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Pat, I did the analysis on the midrange C3-B4. My program scored 92.5% on the temperament octave, 86.5% on the whole midrange, treating your tuning as the "master" tuning. There are no errors larger than 1 cent (rounded down).

sounds promising!

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

I think your F is a bit high. I measured your F3A3 beat rate electronically and it is 6.4 bps. As everything is based on this interval there are other discrepancies such as your E being on the high side.

if its 6.4 bps against A3 (which is tuned first), F3 it would, if anything be a tad too low, wouldn't it? or did I misunderstand you?

Originally Posted By: Kees

Another thing occurred to me is that if you adjust E4 for EBVT3 according to Bill's original equal beating instructions (A3E4 and B3E4 equal beating) it comes out a touch lower that when you make them proportional. For the F#3 the effect is reversed, resulting in a somewhat better CE and somewhat wider DF#.


Hmm... I tried not to favor the 5th but go for equal beating instead... but of course I might have favored the 5ths anyway wink

Originally Posted By: Kees

I will continue with the rest soon.
Kees


Looking forward to it. This is most interesting!


Edited by pppat (03/24/11 08:18 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1647429 - 03/24/11 08:35 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat

if its 6.4 bps against A3 (which is tuned first), F3 it would, if anything be a tad too low, wouldn't it? or did I misunderstand you?

Yes, sorry. My F3 is too high compared to yours.

I entered the whole mater recording and ran the comparison in tuning exam mode. Here's thescore,

There are a few odd notes at the extreme ends in the master tuning where I could not get tunelab to measure you recording.

Overall I think my program does a good job, never more off than a cent (EDIT: point, I mean, not cent!).

What do you think?

Kees


Edited by DoelKees (03/24/11 08:58 PM)

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#1647464 - 03/24/11 09:50 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Kees, this looks promising, to say the least!!

Note that my tuning, being an actual concert tuning for the next day, had A4 at 442 Hz (hence A4 +8.0). Could you easily "transpose" my figures down to A4= 440 Hz? Would be way easier to compare to it that way. I can do it too, if I find the time tomorrow.

PS does the master tuning setting give you the partials automatically?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1647496 - 03/24/11 10:42 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat
Kees, this looks promising, to say the least!!

Note that my tuning, being an actual concert tuning for the next day, had A4 at 442 Hz (hence A4 +8.0). Could you easily "transpose" my figures down to A4= 440 Hz? Would be way easier to compare to it that way. I can do it too, if I find the time tomorrow.

PS does the master tuning setting give you the partials automatically?


I don't know how to transpose yours but I can tune at your A4 and the result is here.

Notice that you actually tuned at A4=441.45Hz. You must be getting sloppy in old age smile. I really have your tuning at the dissecting table here!

And yes the partials are set according to the PTG exam guidelines.

Cheers,
Kees

Top
#1647547 - 03/25/11 12:25 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat

If we don't find a mainstream solution, it might be a good idea to start thinking open source (as you hinted at a long time ago) wink

The current "open source" solution is that people email me their tunelab files with IH measurements and I send them the tuning. A few people asked for the source code and I emailed them that.

To make this widely available the best thing is I think to have a website where you can upload your tunelab file, and it computes the tuning file for you. If I'd charge 1$ per transaction I'd make enough money to buy a (domestic) beer every 6 months.

Kees

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#1647834 - 03/25/11 01:54 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Kees

Notice that you actually tuned at A4=441.45Hz. You must be getting sloppy in old age smile. I really have your tuning at the dissecting table here!

Aah, that's right, I remember now... In placing D5, I moved both A4 and G4 from where I had them tuned originally. I do that sometimes to avoid a D4-D5 that beats wildly.

What I do is that I tune D5, then go back to G4 and A4 and check their fourths/fifths below and see if they can bear a little flattening. Mostly it works well, because often I stretch a bit too optimistically just outside the temperament octave.

This happens in my ET tuning too, by the way. If I find no place for the next note, I have to go back and listen to the 4th and 5th below and adjust them slightly.


Edited by pppat (03/25/11 01:55 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1647841 - 03/25/11 02:03 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: pppat

If we don't find a mainstream solution, it might be a good idea to start thinking open source (as you hinted at a long time ago) wink

The current "open source" solution is that people email me their tunelab files with IH measurements and I send them the tuning. A few people asked for the source code and I emailed them that.

To make this widely available the best thing is I think to have a website where you can upload your tunelab file, and it computes the tuning file for you. If I'd charge 1$ per transaction I'd make enough money to buy a (domestic) beer every 6 months.

Kees


What about a small software that could run on, say a pocket PC, iPhone, android (soon), parallel to the tuning software? Kind of those easy video converters... just put your tuning file in, then process, then save as TuneLab/RCT/VT tuning file.

It could be sold separately for a small fee. And it would open up for all kinds of customized tunings.

Apart from php which I work with quite a bit, my coding is too rusty to contribute. But I think we could find the needed skills amongst ourselves and others in this forum. You write apps, don't you? If I don't remember wrongly, Jim Moy also has a coding background.

Jim, *knock knock* smile


Edited by pppat (03/25/11 02:04 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1647957 - 03/25/11 05:59 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Pat: It's certainly possible with enough effort.
I'd be happy to make my MATLAB code available.

Note there are some quirks. Once the tunelab file has been converted to EBVT it should not be changed anymore in tunelab. In particular you can't tweak the stretch and you can't change the partials anymore. Of course you still can in tunelab as it doesn't know these things but the result will be nonsense.

Kees

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#1647980 - 03/25/11 06:45 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Yes Kees, I understand,

what about if you just leave it as be - then tunelab would faithfully reproduce it all, right?

I am sitting here with your tuning sheet right now. I think we are very close. I also think we might need to get a life (friday night and everything). But I really do think it's worth it!

I'll get back with more feedback on the sheet you posted as soon as I've looked at it thoroughly. That is also a verification process that is highly needed, because 1) I could have made mistakes, 2) the piano might have wanted special solutions, acoustically.

The number 2 above is the hardest to implement logically, but I'll see what I can find.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1648022 - 03/25/11 09:02 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Ryan Hassell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 413
Loc: Farmington, MO
I'm with "accordeur". The directions that Robert Scott gave me were to take samples just like you would normally do to create the tuning curve, then layer the EVBT 3 on top of that. That is how I tune ALL of my pianos now. My customers LOVE the way their pianos sound!! My only question is that the offset numbers that Robert has posted on the Tunelab website for the EBVT 3 are different from the ones that Bill has posted on his site. I have been using Robert's offset numbers. He says they came from a temperament program that he created. It would be interesting to compare the two.

Ryan Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#1648028 - 03/25/11 09:12 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
accordeur, Ryan: There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the temperament offsets for TuneLab.

When EBVT III is tuned by an experienced aural tuner, however, the stretch is quite different from the proportional stretch any ETD use.

This thread is about overcoming that gap, and about looking for a way to get an(y) ETD to reproduce an EBVT III tuning the way an aural tuner can.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1648036 - 03/25/11 09:21 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Kees,

I checked your data and it looks very close, indeed. Now, wouldn't the smart thing here be to go backwards - for me to tune that very same piano using the examinee tuning you produced, and see what I can find by listening?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1648049 - 03/25/11 09:52 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Ryan Hassell]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
I'm with "accordeur". The directions that Robert Scott gave me were to take samples just like you would normally do to create the tuning curve, then layer the EVBT 3 on top of that. That is how I tune ALL of my pianos now. My customers LOVE the way their pianos sound!! My only question is that the offset numbers that Robert has posted on the Tunelab website for the EBVT 3 are different from the ones that Bill has posted on his site. I have been using Robert's offset numbers. He says they came from a temperament program that he created. It would be interesting to compare the two.

If you do it that way you copy the temperament octave offsets all over the range, whereas Bill's offsets change depending on the octave. What you do may sound good, but it's not Bill's EBVT.

Someone computed the offset numbers from Bill's website for him assuming no inharmonicity. Robert Scott computed the offset assuming a "typical" inharmonicity.

Do your customers that love it know it's not ET?

Kees

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#1648051 - 03/25/11 09:57 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat
Kees,

I checked your data and it looks very close, indeed. Now, wouldn't the smart thing here be to go backwards - for me to tune that very same piano using the examinee tuning you produced, and see what I can find by listening?


Yes, that would be the thing to do. If you want to use tunelab I can send you the file. You can find my email in my profile.

Kees

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#1648062 - 03/25/11 10:22 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
I already loaded your numbers into my RCT, which should work.

I transposed my numbers from my higher at pitch temperament just to get a hunch, and the temperament section looks great!

That said, there is definitely some work needed just above the temperament.
I noticed that I generally lie quite a bit higher in that section (F#4-B5). This is Bill's heritage: he wants to avoid beating 5ths in that area, and clearly favor the 5th. I do not particularly like that sound in ET, but it works well in EBVT III because of the different interval and octave sizes.

Have you used equal-beating here to, or proportional? (2:3) Many of Bill's interval in that 1 1/2 goes even closer to a pure 5th. That would in particular be the intervals where he states "fourth doesn't matter" and similar expressions in his written instructions.

But this is overall very cool, Kees! I'll try to tune that same C5 tomorrow, get aural verification, and get back with my findings!


Edited by pppat (03/25/11 10:23 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1648104 - 03/25/11 11:39 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat

That said, there is definitely some work needed just above the temperament.
I noticed that I generally lie quite a bit higher in that section (F#4-B5). This is Bill's heritage: he wants to avoid beating 5ths in that area, and clearly favor the 5th. I do not particularly like that sound in ET, but it works well in EBVT III because of the different interval and octave sizes.

Hmm, I got 6 "errors" in that range, 3 too low and 3 too high.
Quote:

Have you used equal-beating here to, or proportional? (2:3) Many of Bill's interval in that 1 1/2 goes even closer to a pure 5th. That would in particular be the intervals where he states "fourth doesn't matter" and similar expressions in his written instructions.

I used 3/2 everywhere, except in the bass 4/3 of course.
EDIT: And equal beating in the temperament octave.

Kees


Edited by DoelKees (03/25/11 11:52 PM)

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#1648276 - 03/26/11 11:01 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Ryan Hassell]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
I'm with "accordeur". The directions that Robert Scott gave me were to take samples just like you would normally do to create the tuning curve, then layer the EVBT 3 on top of that. That is how I tune ALL of my pianos now. My customers LOVE the way their pianos sound!! My only question is that the offset numbers that Robert has posted on the Tunelab website for the EBVT 3 are different from the ones that Bill has posted on his site. I have been using Robert's offset numbers. He says they came from a temperament program that he created. It would be interesting to compare the two.

Ryan Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com


At the great risk of saying, "I tried that one time, didn't like the results, so I didn't waste any time pursuing it", this is the problem I see with doing what you have said:

Any and all non-equal temperaments are always computed at zero inharmonicity. Any and all ETD's first calculate what would be a proper ET for a piano, based upon what is known as its "inharmonicity profile" (a sampling of the inharmonicity characteristics that the piano actually has). If one wishes to tune any non-equal temperament, the differences which that temperament has from ET are then applied to that calculation. This has always been seen as a correct and viable way to tune any non-equal temperament. It works, at least theoretically and on the surface.

What Robert Scott did, at least as I see it, was to find some "typical" inharmonicity characteristics and directly apply them to the published offsets for the EBVT. I discussed that with him and frankly don't understand why he did that. It does not seem logical to do it.

As an analogy, you go to an optometrist because you are no longer seeing clearly with the lenses you have been wearing for a few years. With your bare eyes, the optometrist finds the new corrective values for you. Then, for some inexplicable reason, the optometrist also applies to the corrections that are unique for you, a "typical" correction, an average of all corrections that are known. What you now would see with the new glasses is "over corrected".

When I tried these figures, I had a free download of Tunelab on a new PDA I had purchased. I was not very familiar with either one. So, bearing that in mind, the results were not at all representative of the EBVT III as I know they should sound. They were a well temperament, yes but more like an 18th Century style than late 19th Century. The results were over corrected from ET.

A well temperament of a wide diversity can and does appeal to many people. Therefore, I do not doubt that your customers have enjoyed the tunings that you have produced. However, I can see no way possible that those results match the aural description of the EBVT III as I have written them or as they are represented in the graph by Jason Kanter. You should use the published figures for the EBVT III if that is what you want to tune and not the altered figures that Robert Scott calculated.

That is my advice and opinion on that. Robert Scott is invited to reply and contribute to this discussion. I have nothing but respect and admiration for his accomplishments and contributions to the tuning profession. I just have a problem with this one, particular item.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1648299 - 03/26/11 12:04 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: pppat
This is Bill's heritage: he wants to avoid beating 5ths in that area, and clearly favor the 5th. I do not particularly like that sound in ET, but it works well in EBVT III because of the different interval and octave sizes.


This is where I see the principal difference in the overall sound between a piano tuned in the EBVT III (or really any WT) with the octaves as I treat them and any ET method that "pushes" the octave stretch such as Herr Stopper's, Signore Capurso's or the Cordier, Lucas Mason (or other) "ET with pure 5ths".

Any WT has the slower M3's combined with 5ths which are tempered more than in ET. The faster M3's are combined with the pure (or nearly pure) 5ths.

If ET is tuned with a wider than beatless octave such as a 6:3 type or larger, it will cause all M3's, M6's and 4ths to beat faster. That produces a certain kind of effect. The 5ths sound "cleaner" or in the case of the ET with pure 5ths, they are actually beatless. There is a remarkable "purity" and smoothness to this effect, however it is at the expense of the "warm" sound of the other more gently beating intervals.

All harmony is made more consonant in one respect but more dissonant in another. Many people describe it as "tight" or "steely". This can be a fine approach for a large concert grand that will play a piano concerto from the Romantic period or later. It will serve to make the piano project well over the orchestra and compete well with the strings who have the natural tendency to push the pitch higher in their upper registers.

On the other hand, tuning a WT with the octaves balanced with their corresponding 5ths, the "warm" harmony of slower beating RBI's is retained, yet the unpleasant sound of narrow 5ths and octave-5ths is mitigated in the 5th and 6th octaves. The warmth is retained but the beneficial effect of more highly stretched octaves is also realized.

For the pure (or nearly so) 5th and more rapidly beating RBI combinations in a WT, the octaves are far more conservatively stretched, so the tighter and tarter sound of the more rapidly beating intervals is controlled and reined in rather than exacerbated.

The result is a "best of both worlds" effect. There is key color and contrast but the adverse effects which are often anticipated with a non-equal temperament are largely suppressed.

The idea of using a moderate stretch in the central octaves for ET but "taking off", so to speak in the outer octaves can work too but at the expense of having overly wide single octaves in the 6th and 7th octaves.

The EBVT III with tempered octaves is but one solution. It is, however, as far as I am concerned, an optimum compromise for all of the above.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1648383 - 03/26/11 02:34 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 268
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
...What Robert Scott did, at least as I see it, was to find some "typical" inharmonicity characteristics and directly apply them to the published offsets for the EBVT. I discussed that with him and frankly don't understand why he did that...

Actually, I did not create my EBVT offsets by applying correction to any published offsets for EBVT. Instead I attempted to derive offsets from scratch using Bill's aural tuning directions as the only basis.

Now I understand the limitations of using only 12 offsets to define an unequal temperament. Bill's aural EBVT tuning instructions cover more than just the one octave, so no set of 12 offsets can ever completely describe a temperament that is inherently a full-scale tuning. But one can at least hope to match the aural instructions in that one octave, and then further hope that the discrepancy outside of that one octave is not too bad.

If we take the aural tuning directions as the gold standard, then the goal of coming up with the 12 ETD offsets should be to try to duplicate the results of the aural tuning instructions as closely as possible. One could imagine doing this with a real piano. Suppose you had a very nice piano with a very well-designed scale and average inharmonicity profile. Imagine following the aural tuning directions for EBVT-III on that piano. Then imagine carefully measuring the offsets from that piano as compared to an ET tuning on the same piano. These could then be used as the 12 ETD offsets, at least on this same piano. And, subject to the limitations discussed in the previous paragraph, these offsets could be used to put a reasonable EBVT-III tuning on most any other piano.

The problem with doing this with a real piano is that every tuning has some error. Even on his best day, Bill's EBVT-III tuning is not going to follow his tuning instructions precisely. And even if they did, the process of measuring the pitches afterwards introduces some little error. So to avoid these two sources of error, I devised a software simulation of the "real good piano" imagined above. My software simulation is called "Temperament Designer", and it is a free download from my website. It is not an easy program to use, and to my knowledge, no one besides me has ever actually used it. Anyway, what this simulation does is calculate the consequences of any specific setting of pitches for about 2 octaves. Using the functions provided, you can "tune" any note to any other note based on beats difference or cents. It is slow and tedious, but not impossible to follow the EBVT-III tuning instructions step by step until the simulated piano is completely tuned. Then you can read out the offsets from ET for one octave and that is how I developed my 12 EBVT-III offsets. They are similar, but not identical, to the ones published by Jason Kanter.

But if I run that same simulation with inharmonicity set to zero, then I get the exact 12 offsets that Jason published. So I know that the simulation is basically correct, and I also know that Jason's 12 offsets were derived assuming a zero-inharmonicity instrument.

Now the argument has been made that it is inappropriate to take inharmonicity into account when doing this because inharmonicity has already been taken into account in constructing the underlying Equal Temperament tuning to which these offsets will apply. So it is sort of like applying them twice. But that is not what is happening. Taking inharmonicity into account when running the simulation is just being true to real piano that it models.

Let me give a very simple example. I wish to develop ETD offsets for an unequal temperament I want to call the One Perfect Third temperament. This temperament has a beatless major third, A-C#. I don't care what else it has. For my purposes I am going to focus only on this one fact. That is the aural tuning direction: Tune A-C# beatless. And just to be specific, let us say that this means the 5:4 major third, using the lowest possible coincident partials. Now if we follow the conventional wisdom of calculating the offsets based on zero inharmonicity, we would have an ETD offset for C# of -13.69 cents from ET (where A is offset 0 cents). Now suppose we were to apply this offset to a real ET piano tuning. I picked a sample Mason & Hamlin A from the TuneLab samples. In that ET, the 5th partial of A4 is 2217.135 Hz and the 4th partial of C#5 is 2234.107 Hz. After applying the -13.69 cent correction to C#5, the 4th partial now becomes 2216.510 Hz. This is close, but not exactly equal to the 2217.135 Hz from the 5th partial of A4, so this major third will not be beatless as promised.

So this illustrates that using correction figures that were based on zero-inharmonicity will not exactly achieve the aural goals that were stated. Taking inharmonicity into account during the simulated tuning reduces this error considerably. It does not eliminate the error entirely, because the assumed inharmonicity in the simulation may not match the real inharmonicity of the piano to which it is applied. But it will match better than if zero inharmonicity were assumed in the simulation.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#1648484 - 03/26/11 06:02 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Robert Scott]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I'm sure my code does the same as Roberts "temperament designer" but for all 88 notes and scripted.

Robert's computed EBVT3 offsets should be better than the zero IH offsets from Bill, unless the piano you have is closer to zero IH than to "typical".

Kees

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