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#1648500 - 03/26/11 06:45 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Ryan Hassell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 464
Loc: Farmington, MO
Thanks for the responses! I don't mean to "hijack" this thread, but have noticed that my process of using the EBVT 3 with Tunelab sounds better on some pianos than others. I don't know if its just the piano. Sometimes the intervals of a 3rd seem to beat a little too fast in the upper octaves for my taste, but this is mostly on small spinets which sometimes need voicing and are not all that great to begin with. Are there certain pianos in which I should not be using EVBT 3 but rather just ET?

I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here... :-)

Thanks!
Ryan Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#1648562 - 03/26/11 08:17 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: pppat
This is Bill's heritage: he wants to avoid beating 5ths in that area, and clearly favor the 5th. I do not particularly like that sound in ET, but it works well in EBVT III because of the different interval and octave sizes.


This is where I see the principal difference in the overall sound between a piano tuned in the EBVT III (or really any WT) with the octaves as I treat them and any ET method that "pushes" the octave stretch such as Herr Stopper's, Signore Capurso's or the Cordier, Lucas Mason (or other) "ET with pure 5ths" [cnt'd]


I second everything you write here, Bill - great explanation!

@Robert: Good to hear you speak about this. As we all know by now, what you percieve during aural tuning (concerning stretch a.s.o.) is not easily transformed into numbers. I think we are on to something with Kees here, bouncing the data back and fourth between calculation and aural verification. It will just take some time, and patience.

@Ryan: It's good that this can is opened, and your feedback is needed, too. There should be nothing unpleasant inside, though, on the contrary I think we are gaining new ground!

@Kees: got called on emergency tunings today, didn't have the time to tune the Y C5. Tomorrow night I will most likely get it done, though.

I think we need different inharmonicities, too. If you bear with me, and are up to it, I would suggest three different instruments. That should be enough to establish a pattern - or, if nothing else, show my inconsistency tuning aurally grin

One of them could be a Steinway D, which I will tune for concert soon. In between, maybe a shorter piano? What do you think?

Anyways, I'll know more tomorrow when I retune the Y C5 using your calculations.

Let me once more say that I find this research (and this discussion) very interesting, relevant, and alive smile


Edited by pppat (03/26/11 08:19 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1648569 - 03/26/11 08:30 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Pat: I was thinking a large upright and a spinet, but what matters most is to test the "aural simulation" on as wide a range possible.

If you send me IH data (C1C2C3C4C5 (C6 optional)) I can generate the tuning file. Instead of ih data just an mp3 of C1-C6 (i.e. just 6 notes) is easy too.

I understand you are now going to tune the Yamaha electronically with my offsets, and then critically examine it, finding what what you consider errors. I am eager to get those results.

One thing I thought of is that Bill's recipe switches to mindless octaves at F5, but in practice a smooth crossfade between the two will be implemented aurally, which I have not done (but can easily).

Kees

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#1648587 - 03/26/11 08:52 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Ryan Hassell]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Robert:

I found and tried your "temperament designer". With so much manual work required it seems a bit error prone.

Are you sure your computed average EBVT3 offsets are correct? It seems to me the C is much to high.

Below your numbers compared to one I computed; they are much closer to Bill's numbers.

Robert Scott:
C 6.24
C# 0.71
D 2.07
D# 1.95
E -1.07
F 4.32
F# -1.24
G 6.31
G# 2.77
A 0.00
A# 2.15
B 1.01

Bill Bremmer (0 IH)
C 3.8
C# -1.3
D 0.9
D# 1.6
E -0.4
F 1.8
F# -0.3
G 3.1
G# 0.7
A 0.0
A# 2.9
B 0.0

Yamaha C5 (varified by Pat)

C 3.6
C# -1.0
D 0.8
D# 1.3
E -0.6
F 1.4
F# -0.3
G 3.0
G# 0.9
A 0.0
A# 2.5
B 0.2

Heintzmann 1903 large upright

C 3.5
C# -0.9
D 0.7
D# 1.2
E -0.7
F 1.2
F# -0.3
G 2.8
G# 1.0
A 0.0
A# 2.4
B 0.2

Sample Steinway D (from tunelab demo files)

C 3.9
C# -1.1
D 0.9
D# 1.5
E -0.4
F 1.8
F# -0.1
G 3.3
G# 1.0
A 0.0
A# 2.7
B 0.2

"average" from tunelab demo tun files

C 3.6
C# -1.0
D 0.7
D# 1.3
E -0.6
F 1.4
F# -0.3
G 2.9
G# 0.9
A 0.0
A# 2.5
B 0.2

Kees

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#1648608 - 03/26/11 09:33 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 283
Loc: Minnesota
Those numbers are from an older erroneous distribution. The latest EBVT-3 offsets currently distributed with TuneLab and available from our downloads page are:

C 3.31
C# -1.08
D 0.62
D# 1.38
E -0.48
F 1.49
F# -0.17
G 2.73
G# 0.93
A 0.00
A# 2.39
B -0.16


_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#1648643 - 03/26/11 10:54 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Robert Scott]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott
Let me give a very simple example. I wish to develop ETD offsets for an unequal temperament I want to call the One Perfect Third temperament. This temperament has a beatless major third, A-C#. I don't care what else it has. For my purposes I am going to focus only on this one fact. That is the aural tuning direction: Tune A-C# beatless. And just to be specific, let us say that this means the 5:4 major third, using the lowest possible coincident partials. Now if we follow the conventional wisdom of calculating the offsets based on zero inharmonicity, we would have an ETD offset for C# of -13.69 cents from ET (where A is offset 0 cents). Now suppose we were to apply this offset to a real ET piano tuning. I picked a sample Mason & Hamlin A from the TuneLab samples. In that ET, the 5th partial of A4 is 2217.135 Hz and the 4th partial of C#5 is 2234.107 Hz. After applying the -13.69 cent correction to C#5, the 4th partial now becomes 2216.510 Hz. This is close, but not exactly equal to the 2217.135 Hz from the 5th partial of A4, so this major third will not be beatless as promised.

So this illustrates that using correction figures that were based on zero-inharmonicity will not exactly achieve the aural goals that were stated. Taking inharmonicity into account during the simulated tuning reduces this error considerably. It does not eliminate the error entirely, because the assumed inharmonicity in the simulation may not match the real inharmonicity of the piano to which it is applied. But it will match better than if zero inharmonicity were assumed in the simulation.


If I understand things correctly another error is introduced because these offsets are the superimposed on a tuning curve which is not horizontal. So the A and C# will be shifted slightly by different amounts and you still end up with an out of tune M3.

I agree the difference will be too small to matter in practice. On the other hand the difference between your computed EVBT3 offsets and Bill's zero IH values are also too small to matter.

The dilemma I have with my 88 note computed EBVT3 is that the offsets I compute are absolute, and they can not be used as offsets to the tunelab tuning curve, unless it is flat. So in the tunelab file that my program spits out I set the IH values to 0. You can still manually adjust the stretch, which is very useful if you want more stretch in the bass and treble. The result is very similar to that from doing an aural tuning simulation of Bill's optional large bass and treble stretch.

Kees

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#1648785 - 03/27/11 09:15 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Pat: I was thinking a large upright and a spinet, but what matters most is to test the "aural simulation" on as wide a range possible.

If you send me IH data (C1C2C3C4C5 (C6 optional)) I can generate the tuning file. Instead of ih data just an mp3 of C1-C6 (i.e. just 6 notes) is easy too.

I understand you are now going to tune the Yamaha electronically with my offsets, and then critically examine it, finding what what you consider errors. I am eager to get those results.

One thing I thought of is that Bill's recipe switches to mindless octaves at F5, but in practice a smooth crossfade between the two will be implemented aurally, which I have not done (but can easily).

Kees

Yes, I will tune the Y C5 with your numbers tonight. I'll also do a couple of samples (C, octaves 1-6), maybe (like you say) a large upright and a short spinet-type piano would be a good choice.

Then you can calculate the numbers for them, send them over, and I tune the pianos according to them. You're right, this back and forth process might be the best way to refine the calculations. They are surprisingly good already, but I have a feeling that we can get them even closer.

I am very excited about this, and possibility for creating a small converter software. I think we are close to implementing EBVT III the way it deserves to be heard on an ETD tuning.

Pure 12ths are another thing that could be handled the same way. That is easier, but there it is a judgment that has to be made in the bass (3:1, 6:2 or perhaps even 9:3?)

CHAS is a third. Many possibilities.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1648881 - 03/27/11 11:44 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Robert Scott]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3221
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott

So this illustrates that using correction figures that were based on zero-inharmonicity will not exactly achieve the aural goals that were stated. Taking inharmonicity into account during the simulated tuning reduces this error considerably. It does not eliminate the error entirely, because the assumed inharmonicity in the simulation may not match the real inharmonicity of the piano to which it is applied. But it will match better than if zero inharmonicity were assumed in the simulation.



Thanks so much for weighing in, Robert. Now I understand what you did far better than I did before and also that you had made some adjustments to it.

Apparently, Ryan Hassel used Tunelab and your EBVT III figures for a concert tuning this weekend. The artists were very high caliber, so was the piano and the music was highly complex, the kind that ET is usually thought of as being the only usable and suitable temperament. He even got the "pipe organ effect" from the tuning, so that means to me that it was an accurate representation.

Thanks again for your input.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1648897 - 03/27/11 12:11 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer
Originally Posted By: pppat

This is where I see the principal difference in the overall sound between a piano tuned in the EBVT III (or really any WT) with the octaves as I treat them and any ET method that "pushes" the octave stretch such as Herr Stopper's, Signore Capurso's or the Cordier, Lucas Mason (or other) "ET with pure 5ths" [cnt'd]

I second everything you write here, Bill - great explanation!

I have to add something here (and correct myself, because there seem to be an exception that confirms the rule)... I listened to Alfredo's recording earlier today, and it does not seem to suffer from a wide temperament range nor from heavy stretch just outside it. It's actually quite a remarkable ET. For all the papers and posts by him, I still have really no idea how he does that. I know that Isaac learned directly from him, so there seems to be something that can be thought in person smile


Edited by pppat (03/27/11 12:12 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1649116 - 03/27/11 07:23 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1196
Loc: Québec, Canada
All I know is this,

Tuning is not my forte. I learnt aurally first over 20 years ago. Achieving a decent temperament, was difficult, unisons were lovely. I got used to it.

Then came along my faithful PT-100 Yamaha, had different scales built-in, my doubts as a piano tuner faded away. I knew I could, but did not understand what I was doing.

Then came along the internet, pianoworld and tunelab. All lovely inventions.

Now, tunelab is like my butler, shows up first, tells me the situation, offers me options (ET, EBVT whatever), there you go. I really enjoy the trade.

Because tuning is not so much a puzzle anymore, I enjoy playing music more than ever. Amen.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1649126 - 03/27/11 07:39 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott

Now I understand the limitations of using only 12 offsets to define an unequal temperament. Bill's aural EBVT tuning instructions cover more than just the one octave, so no set of 12 offsets can ever completely describe a temperament that is inherently a full-scale tuning. But one can at least hope to match the aural instructions in that one octave, and then further hope that the discrepancy outside of that one octave is not too bad.

Robert, I forgot to ask,

what temperament starting note are you using? If it's C and the temperament thus is C-B, one might just as well throw a game of darts... :-D

Bill's temperament is F-E(F), and an extension of the temperament have to go from that core. This dawned on me in real time earlier tonight (i just got home from having yet another date with the Yamaha C5 of this thread).

Kees: I just went through your calculations, tuning the Y C5 to your numbers, and recorded most of it (and comments) on audio. I'm uploading it as I write, but remember - I live in an arctic jungle.. It will take a while. Meanwhile, I will dwell somewhat on my findings.

There are some general things to consider:

When Bill speaks of a "pure-sounding 5th", it's not necessarily 3:2. I noticed this just now. Bill would not make it dead-on 3:2 if he had to accept a wild beating at 6:4, neither would I. The Yamaha C5 had quite a difference between the 3:2 and the 6:4. Would it be wise to calculate it as a compromise between 3:2 and 6:4?

Same thing about equal beating - there is something fishy there, because the numbers gave me unequal beatings. If anything, the fifth was beating faster.

Consistently, C4-approx G4 was too low. Could this be a result of using C-B as a basis? I don't know, just throwing a feeler.

The stretch into the upper bass (that is, on most pianos, across the break) is wider than I do it. Nothing wrong with that, just something to consider carefully. It takes some warmth away from the upper bass, and prevent the tuner from going for a really wide stretch in the lowest range.

I also made inharmonicity samples for a Yamaha U3 and a Hellas Helsinki (the closest I could get to a spinet smile ) I will post them as well, as soon as they are uploaded.



_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1649154 - 03/27/11 08:16 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat
Then you can calculate the numbers for them, send them over, and I tune the pianos according to them. You're right, this back and forth process might be the best way to refine the calculations. They are surprisingly good already, but I have a feeling that we can get them even closer.

I am very excited about this, and possibility for creating a small converter software. I think we are close to implementing EBVT III the way it deserves to be heard on an ETD tuning.

Pure 12ths are another thing that could be handled the same way. That is easier, but there it is a judgment that has to be made in the bass (3:1, 6:2 or perhaps even 9:3?)

That you can almost already do in tunelab by selecting 3:1 in the treble and 6:2 in the bass. I believe Bernhard mentioned a while ago he goes as far as 12:4 in the low bass. You could get that effect by tweaking tunelab's tuning curve.

Similar for Cordier tuning.

Nobody seems to know what chas tuning is, my guess is it's just mindless octaves all over. To get a reasonable bass I assume you need to make a switch to equal beating 8:2/6:2 at some point or something like that.

Kees

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#1649160 - 03/27/11 08:21 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Here is a picture of the Hellas piano so you know what your calculations are up against, Kees. The camera angle might play tricks on the beholder, but you should know this is no piano to bring home to the house...




at about 3 ft. 7 in (109 cm), it should be a nice complement to our piano sample stock collection.

These pianos are so old by now, that we are mostly using them for non-pianistic purposes - decoration, sledges, and so on :-D
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1649166 - 03/27/11 08:26 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Here are the links to the inharmonicity samples:

Inharmonicity samples | Hellas Helsinki

Inharmonicity samples | Yamaha U3
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1649173 - 03/27/11 08:43 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
@Kees: Finally, here is the sound file in which I reproduce your calculated tuning on the Yamaha C5, and comment on-the-fly. Sorry about possible jumps in logic and about an unstructured file as a whole.

Yamaha C5 - aural breakdown of Kees' calculations (2011-03-27)

That said, there is very much information there. Thus you have the ball now smile

I am in no hurry, nor am I tired. If you want to pursue a faithful EBVT III implementation on ETD's, I'll follow you through.

The discussion gives examples of a lot of the characteristic choices in setting the EBVT III, so it might be interesting to other curious tuners to.

@Bill: if you find the time, it would of course be of immense value if you could listen through my recreation of your creation, and the way I try to explain it. This would benefit much from a solid, second opinion and there can't possibly be any person more fit to do that than you.

Let's keep the good energy flowing, folks smile


Edited by pppat (03/28/11 10:12 AM)
Edit Reason: correcting typos
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1649205 - 03/27/11 10:04 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Thanks Pat.

I thought Bill's "pure fifths" were supposed to be pure 3:2 fifths and he mentioned you should prove them to be so.

If they are aurally pure (equal beating 3:2/6:4) it will be a different temperament, I have actually played with that in the past.

So Bill, what fifths do you really want?

Kees
EDIT:
PS Before I tuned Pat's piano remotely I actually had all "pure fifths" implemented as 3:2/6:4 equal beating in my program but I thought it was the wrong thing to do!
PPS Pat I will examine your knitpicking carefully as soon as I have time. I think the 3:2 versus 6:4 is a crucial issue.
I can't aurally tune a pure 3:2 fifth except by using its equal beating check. Aurally pure fifths to me minimize the maximum of the 3:2 and 6:4 beat rates, which is achieved at the equal beating stage.
PPPS This collaboration is a lot of fun!


Edited by DoelKees (03/27/11 10:25 PM)

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#1649225 - 03/27/11 11:49 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Pat, I'm puzzled by the sound of the F3C4 on your recording.
To me it sounds like this, which is the sound synthesized from the IH model derived from your samples.

If the two sounds can not be reconciled the only conclusion I can see is that the tunelab IH model did not apply accurately enough to those 2 notes and either the 6th partial of F3 or the 4th partial of C4 are not where the tunelab model assumes they are.

What do you think?

Kees

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#1649420 - 03/28/11 09:54 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: pppat

Pure 12ths are another thing that could be handled the same way. That is easier, but there it is a judgment that has to be made in the bass (3:1, 6:2 or perhaps even 9:3?)

That you can almost already do in tunelab by selecting 3:1 in the treble and 6:2 in the bass. I believe Bernhard mentioned a while ago he goes as far as 12:4 in the low bass. You could get that effect by tweaking tunelab's tuning curve.

Yes, slip of mind - I meant 12:4 smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1649428 - 03/28/11 10:07 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Pat, I'm puzzled by the sound of the F3C4 on your recording.
To me it sounds like this, which is the sound synthesized from the IH model derived from your samples.

If the two sounds can not be reconciled the only conclusion I can see is that the tunelab IH model did not apply accurately enough to those 2 notes and either the 6th partial of F3 or the 4th partial of C4 are not where the tunelab model assumes they are.

What do you think?

Kees


Kees, I think they sound very much alike inharmonicity-wise! I bet it's only the amplitudes of the partials that throws us off. And that piano, by the way, has a particularly loud and nasty 9:6!

Then, about the fifths, I bet a lot will solve itself if you put your calculations back to your 3:2/6:4 smile What would it do for your scoring against my tuning?

Then another thing I forgot to say: the A3-A4 6:3 is more of an estimate. Bill himself starts with A3 from the fork. The placement of A4 happens when you listen to it against A3, D4 and E4. So what happens if you calculate A4 from D4 and E4 beating 2:3? I bet it will get closer!

If you have the time to try these calculations and send me the numbers, I could check the piano again just for that mid-range. It's easy and fast, and I could get back to you with the aural results in no time.

And yes, I really think this is a lot of fun, too - and a great topic to research smile



_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1649845 - 03/28/11 10:09 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat

Then, about the fifths, I bet a lot will solve itself if you put your calculations back to your 3:2/6:4 smile What would it do for your scoring against my tuning?

It now scores 100% in the temperament range. That was a **** good suggestion.

Originally Posted By: pppat

Then another thing I forgot to say: the A3-A4 6:3 is more of an estimate. Bill himself starts with A3 from the fork. The placement of A4 happens when you listen to it against A3, D4 and E4. So what happens if you calculate A4 from D4 and E4 beating 2:3? I bet it will get closer!

That's what I'm already doing unfortunately. Actually at no point do I tune any particular octave except F3F4 which is exactly 4:2, it's entirely by balancing beats in 4th and 5ths

A new tuning sheet and examn result with these changes is here.

Let's focus on the midrange for now as you suggested, taking things one at a time. Regarding your aural comments, I am not experienced enough in aural tuning to get everything. I do treasure your half hour recording and consider it a free lesson, but it will take me a while to digest.

When you implement this new tuning on the midrange (say C3-C5) can you write down what you perceive to be the 3 biggest problems for me to tackle? Of course I'll be happy with a bonus recording too.

I can produce a tuning file for the other 2 piano's in 5 mins. I propose to try to get things as good as possible on the C5 first. On the other hand there may be even larger issues on the other pianos. Let me know what you prefer.

Kees

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#1649927 - 03/29/11 12:27 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3221
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: pppat

Robert, I forgot to ask,

what temperament starting note are you using? If it's C and the temperament thus is C-B, one might just as well throw a game of darts... :-D

Bill's temperament is F-E(F), and an extension of the temperament have to go from that core. This dawned on me in real time earlier tonight (i just got home from having yet another date with the Yamaha C5 of this thread).

Kees: I just went through your calculations, tuning the Y C5 to your numbers, and recorded most of it (and comments) on audio. I'm uploading it as I write, but remember - I live in an arctic jungle.. It will take a while. Meanwhile, I will dwell somewhat on my findings.

There are some general things to consider:

When Bill speaks of a "pure-sounding 5th", it's not necessarily 3:2. I noticed this just now. Bill would not make it dead-on 3:2 if he had to accept a wild beating at 6:4, neither would I. The Yamaha C5 had quite a difference between the 3:2 and the 6:4. Would it be wise to calculate it as a compromise between 3:2 and 6:4?



Generally, I think of the pure 5th as being a 3:2 5th, not a 6:4. However, on some scales, as you said, your suggestion may work better.

Also, the temperament is definitely F3-F4 but it could be tuned with C4 as the starting pitch. However, that would make the A4 end up at approximately A-439 rather than 440.

As you all may well know, the historically documented well temperaments all started from the note, C. My sequence simply arrives at what would normally be the first interval tuned, C4-E4 through the "side door", so to speak.

To tune from C4 as the starting pitch, tune C4 to the pitch standard; tune C4-E4 at 6 bps; tune F3-C4 as pure 5th, then tune F3-A3 equally beating with C4-E4 and the rest is the same.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1649956 - 03/29/11 01:15 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3221
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: pppat
@Kees: Finally, here is the sound file in which I reproduce your calculated tuning on the Yamaha C5, and comment on-the-fly. Sorry about possible jumps in logic and about an unstructured file as a whole.

Yamaha C5 - aural breakdown of Kees' calculations (2011-03-27)

That said, there is very much information there. Thus you have the ball now smile

I am in no hurry, nor am I tired. If you want to pursue a faithful EBVT III implementation on ETD's, I'll follow you through.

The discussion gives examples of a lot of the characteristic choices in setting the EBVT III, so it might be interesting to other curious tuners to.

@Bill: if you find the time, it would of course be of immense value if you could listen through my recreation of your creation, and the way I try to explain it. This would benefit much from a solid, second opinion and there can't possibly be any person more fit to do that than you.

Let's keep the good energy flowing, folks smile


Patrick,

I a commenting as I listen to your sound file.


  • The F3-C4 5th sounded tempered to me, about like an ET 5th as you observed. Both RBI tests confirmed it as narrow.

  • The A3-D4 4th was pure and the G3-D4 5th far too tempered.

  • Both the F#3-C#4 5th and the F#3-B3 4th sound too tempered. The 5th does seem to beat faster than the 4th. This indicates to me that C#4 may be too flat and B3 may be too sharp.
  • Both the G#3-D#4 5th and the A#3-D#4 4th sounded too tempered. Both of these should sound very nearly but not quite pure. This is as you noticed.

  • The B3-D#4 sounds entirely too slow. Both this and the last test both indicate that D#4 is too flat.
  • As you confirmed, both the A3-C#4 and B3-D#4 M3s sound too slow. This and the F#3-C#4 5th (and corresponding F#3-B3 4th comparison) indicate that both C#4 and D#4 are too flat.

  • The G3-B3 M3 beats too fast. This and the B3-D#4 M3 test shows that D#4 is too flat and B3 is too sharp.

  • The C4-E4 M3 sounds about right but the A3-E4 5th is too tempered (faster than the B3-E4 4th as you say). We had noted that the F3-C4 5th was tempered and not pure, the B3 was too sharp, so, this accounts for why the C4-E4 M3 sounds about right but E4 is too flat and so is C4.

  • The F3-F4 octave is quite narrow. F4 is too flat. the 4th and 5th test also proved that F4 is too flat.

  • The F#3-F#4 octave is too narrow as you confirmed.


It is past midnight now. I am sorry that I cannot complete this examination of the sound file now. However, I have confirmed each of Patrick's observations. None of the intervals are correct.

Sorry to have to say that.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1649980 - 03/29/11 02:23 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Thanks for your comments Bill. Some of these observations I can see in the numbers too, but
Quote:

The F3-F4 octave is quite narrow. F4 is too flat. the 4th and 5th test also proved that F4 is too flat.

makes no sense. If you look at Pat's F3F4 and the electronic one there is only 0.1 difference between the two. The F#3 F#4 octave which is supposedly too narrow is actually wider in my tuning than in Pat's.

Also in the temperament octave there were only 3 notes off by more than a cent (1.3 max) from Pat's tuning so how can all these intervals be so much off?

So I'm suspecting some data transmission error here.

Pat, are the numbers really being transferred correctly with the right partials for the offset? You will have to use the notes at precisely these partials too in your ETD as your software will have a different IH model. Can you try with a trial version of tunelab just to make sure?

Kees

Kees

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#1650077 - 03/29/11 08:01 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Pat: Looking again at the offsets you measured and published here before I see your partials are different. The partials I use are the "tuning exam mode" values. This could explain some of the unexplicable things.

To make 100% sure we get our numbers right can you, next time you tune the midrange with my improved numbers, audio record each note for me? Then I can check here with tunelab that you did what was intended.

Below the full tunelab file which specifies the partial as well as the offset.

A0 4 0.0 -14.52
A#0 4 0.0 -11.03
B0 4 0.0 -11.53
C1 4 0.0 -7.43
C#1 4 0.0 -7.93
D1 4 0.0 -7.14
D#1 4 0.0 -5.41
E1 4 0.0 -6.25
F1 4 0.0 -2.67
F#1 4 0.0 -3.84
G1 4 0.0 -1.43
G#1 4 0.0 -1.69
A1 4 0.0 -2.47
A#1 4 0.0 -0.19
B1 4 0.0 -1.46
C2 4 0.0 4.19
C#2 4 0.0 2.68
D2 4 0.0 3.15
D#2 4 0.0 3.93
E2 4 0.0 2.55
F2 4 0.0 5.48
F#2 4 0.0 3.91
G2 4 0.0 6.50
G#2 4 0.0 5.28
A2 4 0.0 4.90
A#2 4 0.0 6.27
B2 4 0.0 4.87
C3 4 0.0 7.53
C#3 4 0.0 5.79
D3 4 0.0 7.18
D#3 4 0.0 7.47
E3 4 0.0 6.24
F3 4 0.0 7.63
F#3 4 0.0 6.29
G3 4 0.0 10.26
G#3 4 0.0 8.33
A3 4 0.0 7.36
A#3 4 0.0 10.13
B3 4 0.0 8.90
C4 2 0.0 9.08
C#4 2 0.0 4.49
D4 2 0.0 6.39
D#4 2 0.0 7.14
E4 2 0.0 6.20
F4 2 0.0 7.63
F#4 2 0.0 6.40
G4 2 0.0 9.23
G#4 2 0.0 8.33
A4 2 0.0 8.02
A#4 2 0.0 9.24
B4 2 0.0 8.30
C5 1 0.0 9.21
C#5 1 0.0 7.94
D5 1 0.0 8.95
D#5 1 0.0 8.88
E5 1 0.0 8.26
F5 1 0.0 9.05
F#5 1 0.0 7.71
G5 1 0.0 11.52
G#5 1 0.0 8.33
A5 1 0.0 8.86
A#5 1 0.0 10.71
B5 1 0.0 9.71
C6 1 0.0 12.41
C#6 1 0.0 9.74
D6 1 0.0 12.36
D#6 1 0.0 12.56
E6 1 0.0 12.24
F6 1 0.0 13.89
F#6 1 0.0 13.16
G6 1 0.0 16.87
G#6 1 0.0 16.32
A6 1 0.0 17.24
A#6 1 0.0 18.44
B6 1 0.0 18.33
C7 1 0.0 21.37
C#7 1 0.0 20.96
D7 1 0.0 24.35
D#7 1 0.0 23.77
E7 1 0.0 24.87
F7 1 0.0 27.42
F#7 1 0.0 27.58
G7 1 0.0 32.28
G#7 1 0.0 30.90
A7 1 0.0 34.16
A#7 1 0.0 37.01
B7 1 0.0 38.31
C8 1 0.0 42.61

Kees

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#1650096 - 03/29/11 08:44 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
PS. I think if you try the first set of offsets I gave with the correct partials you may find it actually better than the 2nd "improved" set.

If I was right about the partials confusion Bill was right that the F3C4 you got would have been 2 cent narrow, i.e. a normal tempered one.

Kees

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#1650106 - 03/29/11 08:59 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat

Robert, I forgot to ask,

what temperament starting note are you using? If it's C and the temperament thus is C-B, one might just as well throw a game of darts... :-D

I can answer that for him I think. He (and I) starts at A3, then computes F3 such that F3A3 beats 6bps, then compute the rest of the temperament octave. The offsets from ET are then listed in the standard order starting from C (i.e. C4,..,E4,F3..B3). As all C's (for example) get the same offsets that's fine.

Kees

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#1650133 - 03/29/11 09:55 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3221
Loc: Madison, WI USA
The correct partial selections are, of course, of prime importance. It does not matter which partials are chosen but if they are changed from one device to another, that would certainly account for the number of errors that were apparent in Patrick's trial.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1650488 - 03/29/11 07:06 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Kees, Bill,

it was mismatching partials. I did a couple of mistakes - or actually, they can be boiled down to one huge mistake: not double-checking the basics.

I was under the impression that the choice of partials is set in stone for all PTG master tunings. I still don't know if that is the case, but my short experience of master tunings tell me otherwise (the one I witnessed in Vegas read some of the notes on the 3rd partial).

Then, as my RCT pocket version doesn't contain the tuning exam function of the "full" version, I dove into the RCT tuning styles library and grabbed a tuning from the PTG exam section, and used the partials from that.

Only when I read your response and got suspicious, I checked a few of the other tunings in the library. No consensus at all - a range of different partial readings.

In retro-perspective, I should of course have read the TuneLab or the RCT full version manual, and that way avoided wasting your time. I'm sorry - lesson learned blush

But now to the good news! smile ... Kees, your calculations are very close. I just got home from another session (this time with the right partials and all wink ) and I think I have a good representation of the tuning on the sound clip I am uploading as I write this.

To give a short summary, I'm very confident that ETD users soon can tune a very nice EBVT III! There are a few issues, but I'm sure that you (Kees) can solve them once you gets the aural feedback and a most educated and highly needed second opinion by you (Bill).

Some notes inside the temperament, and a general need for more stretch just above and below (to avoid noticeably beating 5ths). But, as I said before, very close - nice numbers, Kees smile


Edited by pppat (03/29/11 07:47 PM)
Edit Reason: correcting typos
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1650505 - 03/29/11 07:46 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Here is the link to the sound file:

Nitpicking Kees EBVT III (March 29, 2011)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1650512 - 03/29/11 08:05 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Let's focus on the midrange for now as you suggested, taking things one at a time. Regarding your aural comments, I am not experienced enough in aural tuning to get everything. I do treasure your half hour recording and consider it a free lesson, but it will take me a while to digest.

When you implement this new tuning on the midrange (say C3-C5) can you write down what you perceive to be the 3 biggest problems for me to tackle? Of course I'll be happy with a bonus recording too.

I can produce a tuning file for the other 2 piano's in 5 mins. I propose to try to get things as good as possible on the C5 first. On the other hand there may be even larger issues on the other pianos. Let me know what you prefer.

Kees


I didn't see this post until now, sorry...

the three challenges to work out math-wise i think would be

1) the placement of F3 (and thus F4 and F5)
2) expanding the stretch slightly directly beneath the temperament, and across the tenor break
3) expanding the stretch slightly directly above the extended temperament (F5 ->) to get a smooth transition into mindless octaves.

Both 2 and 3 should be able to solve mathematically by giving priority to the 5th, I think?

Let's go mainly with the Yamaha C5 for now, but once we get it confirmed I'd think the next logical step would be to try it on the Hellas piano (which has a challenging scale, to say the least!)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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