Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
150 registered (Alexander Borro, accordeur, Anita Potter, ajames, 43 invisible), 1745 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 6 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#1658072 - 04/11/11 06:08 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
GPM: by bluetooth, or (the more complex, but bullet-proof way): Send an e-mail to yourself with the .tun as an attachment, open the mail on your iPhone, save the attached .tun file smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#1658173 - 04/11/11 10:34 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2416
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the tips....sNot familiar with bluetooh in getting files to my Iphone. I did try the email, but my Iphone is not allowing me to download the .tun file, it shows it's there, but there is nothing to click.


Robert, is there a way to get this .tun file into the Iphone?

Top
#1658176 - 04/11/11 10:36 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Originally Posted By: pppat
I've never worked with the win mobile operating system. What are the programs coded in?

That would be Microsoft eMbedded Visual Studio, for versions of PocketPC that Tunelab runs on, and the language would be C/C++. The iPhone is primarily Objective-C, but with the ability to include C/C++ as well in Apple's Xcode. Android phones are Java using the Android SDK and optionally the Eclipse IDE, with C/C++ possible as a secondary add-on.

Secondary development environments are available for all platforms. Kees noted that Python might be a nice environment in which to perform a port of the code, and interpreters exist for this. The most recent iPhone dev guidelines provide a loophole that may provide a way to run Python code on iPhone. But if the desire is to run in multiple operating systems the clear choice is C/C++.

I would expect that to integrate with Tunelab in any way Robert would expect C/C++ code. (Though I have no expectation that Robert would be interested in this at all, but only he can say.)

I don't have much time to spend on this project, so if there are any other coders with interest in this and have spare cycles, please jump in! I am, unfortunately, a Matlab newbie, so that slows things down on my end. But I've written code for practically all the notable mobile platforms since the late 90's so maybe that balances out a bit.

I tuned the midrange of my Chickering with the numbers from Kees' April 06, 2011 11:29 AM post. The temperament comes out pretty good, a recognizable EBVT, though with a few half-bps discrepancies compared to when I tune it aurally. The foundation 6bps intervals were all fine. I took the iH numbers a few years ago, so perhaps I need to revisit them. I'll see if I can document the discrepancies better.
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

Top
#1658281 - 04/11/11 01:31 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 287
Loc: Minnesota
Kees is correct. I probably won't want to change TuneLab to include this custom EBVT tuning file generation algorithm. But you can do this without changing TuneLab. Just write a separate app for the Pocket PC. This app could read the TuneLab file for the IH constants, discarding everything else, and then write whatever custom version you want. Then just read the tuning file into TuneLab.

This is easy for the Pocket PC and for the laptop platforms because all the document files are available to all the apps. But in the iPhone, the documents are sandboxed so apps cannot read each other's documents. Fortunately there is a workaround (in answer to GP's question). iPhone apps can be enabled for "file sharing", and our app is so enabled. Here is the Apple web page that explains how.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

Top
#1658493 - 04/11/11 08:06 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Robert,

the way this thread is developing it seems there might very well be the simplest possible solution available, and it works because of the way you built the software.

I didn't realize until tonight how powerful that software really are. I absolutely love the fact that you can have "dynamic", relative custom offsets, clinging on to the tuning curve you adjust to your liking.

I also liked the combination of a phase and spectrum display. The latter comes in really handy in the treble. Nice falling time on the graph too, It gets slower higher up, right? Very natural.

Last but not least I like that you can enter iH manually, and that tuning files are stored in single text-based files.

The only thing i miss is RCT's "EQ" function, which gives a little more room for creative play.

But I'm sold, I definitely need your program. I put in an order first thing when I got home smile

@Kees, Thomas: I did the aural verifications tonight. The bad news is that the 6:3 approach over the break didn't work. The good news is that your (Thomas') approach is just a handful of small note tweaks away from creating an EBVT III for ETD use. The possibility of attaching the numbers as offsets in the format of an ordinary .tun file, and by that being able to stretch to your liking, is, just like you (Kees) said, definitely something to like.

I think the result was nothing short of spectacular. I will have to go straight to bed now due to an early morning meeting, but I will post the video talk-throughs tomorrow.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1658516 - 04/11/11 08:59 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat
@Kees, Thomas: I did the aural verifications tonight. The bad news is that the 6:3 approach over the break didn't work. The good news is that your (Thomas') approach is just a handful of small note tweaks away from creating an EBVT III for ETD use. The possibility of attaching the numbers as offsets in the format of an ordinary .tun file, and by that being able to stretch to your liking, is, just like you (Kees) said, definitely something to like.

I think the result was nothing short of spectacular. I will have to go straight to bed now due to an early morning meeting, but I will post the video talk-throughs tomorrow.

I have some good news too. I tried Thomas' approach but keeping the full aural simulation. I just fit a tunelab style tuning curve through the computed EBVT offsets and that is my reference ET. I then compute the offsets of EBVT with respect to this reference ET and store them as custom offsets in a tunelab file. This is exactly what Thomas did but keeping the full aural simulation.

The good part is that the offsets are less than a cent apart across the piano's I tried, from Yamaha C5 to Hellish Helsinki. So these computed offsets can be
used universally and distributed in the form of an EBVT3 template, which you can then manipulate with the full functionality of tunelab. The offsets just act as a kind of 88 note temperament.

So no coding is required, just the precomputation of a few tunelab template files for, say 3 types of pianos, either with my or with Thomas's method, whatever works best!

Remaining problem: how to deal with the part just across the break where the suggested 6:3 doesn't work. I thought the problem would be E3 is too low, as F3F4 is 4:2 and E3E4 is suddenly 6:3. If that is indeed the problem I can try a smooth transition from 4:2 to 6:3 octave across the break.

Kees


Edited by DoelKees (04/11/11 09:20 PM)
Edit Reason: removed incorrect statement

Top
#1658537 - 04/11/11 09:28 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Here's my calculation of a "universal" EBVT3 template.

To use it save a a .tun file, measure your inharmonicity, probably change the partials to something you prefer and it should work on any piano, just like Thomas'. Note that I keep A4 at A=440 so comparison with Thomas' data is a bit cumbersome and I'm running out of free time at the moment.

Note the custom offsets are partial independent, and once you measure IH tunelab will compute the 3d column of offsets which are the normal smooth stretch.

Kees

A0 4 0.0 -0.10
A#0 4 0.0 1.71
B0 4 0.0 -1.15
C1 4 0.0 1.54
C#1 4 0.0 -1.30
D1 4 0.0 -1.30
D#1 4 0.0 0.42
E1 4 0.0 -1.64
F1 4 0.0 1.11
F#1 4 0.0 -1.75
G1 4 0.0 0.53
G#1 4 0.0 0.08
A1 4 0.0 -1.17
A#1 4 0.0 1.33
B1 4 0.0 -0.76
C2 4 0.0 2.48
C#2 4 0.0 -1.35
D2 4 0.0 -0.38
D#2 4 0.0 0.71
E2 4 0.0 -1.23
F2 4 0.0 0.87
F#2 4 0.0 -0.95
G2 4 0.0 2.33
G#2 4 0.0 0.22
A2 4 0.0 -0.52
A#2 4 0.0 2.21
B2 4 0.0 -0.33
C3 4 0.0 3.36
C#3 4 0.0 -1.32
D3 4 0.0 0.71
D#3 4 0.0 1.50
E3 4 0.0 -0.31
F3 4 0.0 1.81
F#3 4 0.0 -0.10
G3 4 0.0 3.09
G#3 4 0.0 0.89
A3 4 0.0 0.05
A#3 4 0.0 2.68
B3 4 0.0 0.05
C4 2 0.0 3.63
C#4 2 0.0 -1.14
D4 2 0.0 0.78
D#4 2 0.0 1.47
E4 2 0.0 -0.46
F4 2 0.0 1.65
F#4 2 0.0 -0.68
G4 2 0.0 2.07
G#4 2 0.0 0.70
A4 2 0.0 0.00
A#4 2 0.0 1.39
B4 2 0.0 -0.75
C5 1 0.0 3.49
C#5 1 0.0 1.16
D5 1 0.0 2.20
D#5 1 0.0 1.85
E5 1 0.0 0.53
F5 1 0.0 2.25
F#5 1 0.0 -0.07
G5 1 0.0 3.27
G#5 1 0.0 -0.27
A5 1 0.0 0.22
A#5 1 0.0 1.82
B5 1 0.0 -0.52
C6 1 0.0 2.27
C#6 1 0.0 -1.35
D6 1 0.0 0.92
D#6 1 0.0 0.52
E6 1 0.0 -0.86
F6 1 0.0 0.82
F#6 1 0.0 -1.47
G6 1 0.0 1.96
G#6 1 0.0 0.05
A6 1 0.0 0.16
A#6 1 0.0 0.63
B6 1 0.0 -1.15
C7 1 0.0 1.79
C#7 1 0.0 -0.57
D7 1 0.0 1.59
D#7 1 0.0 -0.37
E7 1 0.0 -0.79
F7 1 0.0 0.87
F#7 1 0.0 -1.43
G7 1 0.0 1.68
G#7 1 0.0 -1.84
A7 1 0.0 -0.37
A#7 1 0.0 0.34
B7 1 0.0 -1.37
C8 1 0.0 1.05

Top
#1658559 - 04/11/11 09:58 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
Sorry if the .91 cent offset is messing people up. I wanted to be able to compare overall stretch with ET, without the EBVT III graph being translated a little sharper due to the nature of EBVT III. I can change the numbers if you want, so that A4=A440.
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

Top
#1658574 - 04/11/11 10:16 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Thomas Dowell]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Originally Posted By: Tdowel
I can change the numbers if you want, so that A4=A440.

Yes, please!
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

Top
#1658577 - 04/11/11 10:20 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
I thought the problem would be E3 is too low, as F3F4 is 4:2 and E3E4 is suddenly 6:3. If that is indeed the problem I can try a smooth transition from 4:2 to 6:3 octave across the break.


"...across the break," do you mean across the boundary between the temperament octave and the tenor section below?

Just trying to follow you guys, you're going pretty fast!
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

Top
#1658581 - 04/11/11 10:27 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Jim Moy]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jim Moy
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
I thought the problem would be E3 is too low, as F3F4 is 4:2 and E3E4 is suddenly 6:3. If that is indeed the problem I can try a smooth transition from 4:2 to 6:3 octave across the break.


"...across the break," do you mean across the boundary between the temperament octave and the tenor section below?

Just trying to follow you guys, you're going pretty fast!


Yes.

Kees

Top
#1658608 - 04/11/11 10:58 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
Here are the numbers, adjusted .91 cents sharp, so that A=440, for the .tun file I shared:



A0 6 0 0.99
A#0 6 0 1.52
B0 6 0 -0.21
C1 6 0 2.29
C#1 6 0 -0.2
D1 6 0 1.86
D#1 6 0 0.72
E1 6 0 0.03
F1 6 0 1.69
F#1 6 0 -0.18
G1 6 0 2.68
G#1 6 0 0.35
A1 6 0 0.4
A#1 6 0 2.04
B1 6 0 -0.21
C2 6 0 2.3
C#2 6 0 -0.81
D2 6 0 1.68
D#2 6 0 1.16
E2 6 0 -0.24
F2 4 0 1.94
F#2 4 0 -0.17
G2 4 0 2.92
G#2 4 0 -0.26
A2 4 0 0.31
A#2 4 0 1.89
B2 4 0 -0.18
C3 4 0 2.63
C#3 4 0 -0.24
D3 4 0 0.79
D#3 4 0 1.69
E3 4 0 -0.26
F3 2 0 1.49
F#3 2 0 -0.17
G3 2 0 2.73
G#3 2 0 0.93
A3 2 0 0
A#3 2 0 2.39
B3 2 0 -0.16
C4 2 0 3.11
C#4 2 0 -1.44
D4 2 0 0.62
D#4 2 0 1.38
E4 2 0 -0.48
F4 2 0 1.49
F#4 2 0 -0.17
G4 2 0 2.73
G#4 2 0 0.93
A4 1 0 0
A#4 1 0 1.75
B4 1 0 -0.29
C5 1 0 2.39
C#5 1 0 -0.46
D5 1 0 1.34
D#5 1 0 1.27
E5 1 0 -0.25
F5 1 0 1.77
F#5 1 0 -0.17
G5 1 0 2.92
G#5 1 0 -0.26
A5 1 0 0.31
A#5 1 0 1.89
B5 1 0 -0.32
C6 1 0 2.3
C#6 1 0 -0.81
D6 1 0 1.68
D#6 1 0 1.16
E6 1 0 -0.24
F6 1 0 1.2
F#6 1 0 0.37
G6 1 0 1.82
G#6 1 0 0.92
A6 1 0 0.46
A#6 1 0 1.51
B6 1 0 -0.27
C7 1 0 2.09
C#7 1 0 -0.31
D7 1 0 2.13
D#7 1 0 0.52
E7 1 0 0.03
F7 1 0 1.84
F#7 1 0 -0.24
G7 1 0 2.61
G#7 1 0 -0.53
A7 1 0 0.99
A#7 1 0 1.52
B7 1 0 -0.28
C8 1 0 1.75
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

Top
#1658632 - 04/11/11 11:28 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Thomas Dowell]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Thanks Thomas. I notice you're a bit off from me in the temperament octave because you use Robert Scott's offsets rather than Bill's. According to my calculations Bill's numbers are closer for nice pianos at least.

More interesting and relevant seems that your numbers are for all practical purposes identical to mine!

Now if we can just get Pat to fix our "just below the temperament" notes we're done! Come on Pat, get this early morning meeting over with and get to work! smile

Kees

Top
#1658635 - 04/11/11 11:31 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
I finally figured out how to go from iPod voice memo to mp3 file, so here is my nit-picking of my tuning on a 7 foot Chinese Norkiska grand. I approached expanding the temperament as if it were a "bad" ET, trying to compromise the Fourth, Fifth, and Octave.

I didn't include the actual temperament octave, as I made some wrong assumptions. I also couldn't look at my ETD while recording, because I was using my ETD to record.

Low to High Treble (F4-C7):
http://www.box.net/shared/m80fb7lpy0

Me poorly playing the beginning of Rhapsody in Blue on the freshly tuned piano:
http://www.box.net/shared/agof42glcp

(I'm a definite amateur at that song, so don't be too rough on my playing!)

I welcome any comments on my evaluation, and whether I was right or wrong in my assumptions.
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

Top
#1658690 - 04/12/11 12:55 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Just to state where we are:

Thomas has produced a heuristic way to get the EBVT offsets, in the spirit of Bill's scheme to pay attention to 5ths. I have produced EBVT offsets by mechanically simulating Bill's aural tuning scheme literally.

The differences between Thomas and Kees are numerically under 1 cent everywhere.

Pat dislikes the octave below F3 (across the break). Changing to a 6:3 octave scheme there did not help. The solution to this problem is not known.

Please comment if I missed anything.

Kees
PS This is definitely the most productive thread ever on this forum.

Top
#1658706 - 04/12/11 01:46 AM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3325
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Kees,

You guys are way beyond me on most points and I like that because I have only ever done what I do as an aural tuner. It may interest you to know that any experimentation I have done with the EBVT or EBVT III has always been on on Steinway B or D.

That accounts for the very small and insignificant amount that A4 would need to be changed from a 6:3 octave with A3 in order to be correct. I liken this to Sanderson's directions for "perfection of A-440 pitch" when using its FAC program. It is possible when using that program that A4 would not be exactly at A-440 but a mere 10th of a cent or few from it. All one has to do is run the program at a small offset to compensate for that.

I hope that helps. I also hope that there will be new information that can be used during my class at the upcoming convention.

Thanks to all who have taken an interest.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1658924 - 04/12/11 12:42 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Bill, Kees, Thomas, Jim, GPM, and others interested in this... I think we've got it!

I tuned until way past bedtime yesterday and rose to an early meeting this morning, but still I've had a smile on my face all day. The pieces seem to have fallen into place - partly trial and error, partly persistence, partly the power of collaboration, and then some luck smile

My 6:3 suggestion implemented by Kees did not sound good on the first U3, and that was kind of a drag. But then I took Thomas' numbers, added the iH from the U3 #2, and put tunelab into full automatic mode (6:3 bass, 4:1 treble). It resulted in a very good EBVT III on that instrument!

As Kees' recent numbers (using the same method) are very close, I think it is Tunelab's dealing with the 6:3/4:1 transition that made the area just beneath the temperament work so well.

Sure, the high treble is lower and the low bass is higher than both Bill and I would tune aurally, but that's easy to fix just by stretching the A0/A8 of the tuning curve. The D5 should be a bit higher, but that's easy too.

I have a nasty voice whispering in my ear that this is just sheer dumb luck, and that it won't work on other instruments. But I tell it to shut up... Knowing the U3 model rather well, I would actually assume the opposite - if it works across that break, it will most likely work in general.

I will tune a scale-compromised piano this week, as well as a Yamaha C5 (different one) and a Steinway D for concerts. I'll use the recent numbers for initial unisons, bring my cam and hope for time to record the results.

I'll post the video clips in a sec.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1659047 - 04/12/11 04:06 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Here are the two files. First my 6:3 suggestion that didn't work out:
6:3 dealing with the break, U3 #1

... then the U3 #2 with Tdowel's custom offsets to a fully automatic Tunelab curve (6:3/4:1):
U3 #2, Tunelab fully automatic w/ Tdowel's custom offsets

Please listen and comment. I don't think that I'm mistaken, though... I feel that we have the aim of this thread within our grasp. From here on, it should be an easy catch.

PS I bought TL... smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1659064 - 04/12/11 04:36 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Pat: I noticed that in my computed relative universal offsets the G4D5 fifth is 1.5 cent wider than in Thomas' file. Perhaps that would solve the problem with D5?

Kees

Top
#1659086 - 04/12/11 05:08 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Pat: I noticed that in my computed relative universal offsets the G4D5 fifth is 1.5 cent wider than in Thomas' file. Perhaps that would solve the problem with D5?

Kees


Yes, that was exactly my thoughts too.
The hardest puzzle to solve in the treble extension is C4-G4-A4-D5.

I often have to back down and flatten G4 somewhat to make this work.
@Thomas: You can hear that in your sound clip, when you extend the temperament upwards. You make an aural note about D4-G4 being kind of noisy, and then you move along. Thus the impossible equation at D5!

You wiz kids should chat and get me some numbers for the tunings (small piano, Yamaha G5, Steinway D) starting tomorrow night grin

This is really exciting, I enjoy being part of the process. Collaboration at its best!



Edited by pppat (04/13/11 10:37 AM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1659259 - 04/12/11 11:55 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat

You wiz kids should chat and get me some numbers for the tunings (small piano, Yamaha G5, Steinway D) starting tomorrow night grin

Thomas: I think my offset numbers are more accurate in theory in the sense that they simulate Bill's aural tuning scheme to the letter, and the offsets differ slightly depending on inharmonicity. On the other hand, your scheme perhaps captures the purpose of Bill's aural tuning instructions more directly and may be more appropriate for ETDs.

I am very interested to see how Pat evaluates our respective offsets, no matter what the outcome is.

Kees

Top
#1659516 - 04/13/11 01:16 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3325
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: pppat
Here are the two files. First my 6:3 suggestion that didn't work out:
6:3 dealing with the break, U3 #1

... then the U3 #2 with Tdowel's custom offsets to a fully automatic Tunelab curve (6:3/4:1):
U3 #2, Tunelab fully automatic w/ Tdowel's custom offsets


Please listen and comment. I don't think that I'm mistaken, though... I feel that we have the aim of this thread within our grasp. From here on, it should be an easy catch.

PS I bought TL... smile


Patrick,

In listening to your comments during the second video, I concur with all of them. This is not bad at all but certain 4ths sound too pure while some 5ths beat a little too much here and there. These would be very small changes that I would more or less expect to have to make when using a calculated program.

So, I hate to make this judgment at this point (it is just my opinion based on what I hear in this video example) but after all of this hard work, I am not so sure you all are that much ahead at this point of what the usual calculated tuning on any ETD would produce. Maybe a little, I can't be sure.

I always found that the solution for D5 was to simply sharpen it by 1 cent. That usually solves the problem. So, if there is any way to put in that alteration, it would probably solve the problem. Doing so creates a wider D4-D5 octave, yes but it is by no means too wide to be acceptable. I am always careful not to flatten D3 too much so that the double octave D3-D5 is also too wide.

If G4 somehow ends up too sharp as in this example, flattening it slightly definitely helps the G4-D5 fifth which is always the problem. One does not want to hear either a beating C4-G4 fifth or a beating G4-D5 fifth. Both should sound tempered but not much more at all than one might get with a slightly imperfect ET.

In consulting Jason Kanter's graph, I note that the theoretical cents narrow of C4-G4 would be -2.64 and the beat rate would be 0.6 beats per second. I generally think of the same ET fifth as being about 1/2 beat per second when using an optimally stretched octave. Perhaps it would be even a little slower than that in ET.

In any case, my original thinking in all of this while developing the EBVT aurally was to stay within the bounds of errors in ET that an average tuner may make. It is rare for a tuner to get a perfect score of 100 on the tuning exam. Even a high score of 98 always has that one imbalance between a 4th and 5th and RBI's that are also irregular as a consequence.

A score of 90 while still considered superior has four such errors. A score of 80 is still passing well enough to be an RPT but will have 8 such errors. So, that is what I keep in mind. I know that all of the 4ths and 5ths will be irregular but none of them ever exceeds an amount that I believe would be intolerable. The same goes for the RBI's.

I am always amused at people who play the EBVT III chromatically because it is not a valid way to listen to the temperament. However, I have to admit that I do that too expecting to hear just what I did in this video. A real perfectionist ET tuner would find it appalling! (Slow-fast-slow-fast, etc. Contiguous thirds that are inverted.)

These kinds of irregularities are rather commonly found when I listen to a temperament on any given piano at any time or place (including someone's tuning exam). I rarely find them resembling a well temperament, however. As everyone knows by now, I almost always find them working in the opposite direction. It stands to reason that if the consumer of someone's tuning efforts can tolerate those kinds of errors, they can surely tolerate the purposeful irregularities (from the point of view of a true ET) that give music the magic derived from well temperament.

I am pleased with your efforts. As long as everything sounds "kinda-sorta-pretty-even", it will work.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1659548 - 04/13/11 02:00 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Last night I tried my Chickering with Thomas' latest template. Opened in Tunelab, sampled iH, unselected freeze-offsets on the tuning curve, set it to full auto, selected 6:3/4:2 then tapped Auto to get the nice Railsback curve plus the red EBVT offsets displayed, then tuned C2-E5, middle-strings.

It came very close to how I tune EBVT(3) aurally, though I needed to make these changes: flatten D4 by almost one cent to get the G3/A3 beating the same; sharpen A#3 by almost one cent to get the beating the same as the G3-C4 interval, flatten F#3 a half-cent for a beatless fifth to C#4. Tunelab gave me almost beatless fifths going down beneath F3, and above F4.

I tune to about a quarter-cent accuracy as displayed in the Tunelab shutter, so I can't say if some of the tolerances added up the "wrong way" for me. My piano's tenor break between G#2/A2. I compared the iH numbers to the one I posted previously, and they're within a few hundredths.

Hope this helps!
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

Top
#1659611 - 04/13/11 04:13 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
@Bill: Great feedback, thanks - it's definitely needed! Regarding this ETD implementation, I'm quite a bit more optimistic, though ... smile I guessed yesterday that those beating 5hs and too pure 4ths had to do with the conservative stretch of the TuneLab default mode (6:3 bass, 4:1 treble).

[EDIT]And because I felt that the narrowness was consistent, and not random, this, to me, was a great leap forward. [/EDIT]

Tonight when I tuned a C3 for concert (thought it would be C5, but it was its baby brother), I used Thomas' numbers in TuneLab with a tuning curve of 8:4 bass and 8:2 treble, and what do you know - those 5th/4th relationships straightened up nicely smile

I did but three alterations aurally: the last two plain string notes (B2 and C3), and then the D5. I think the result is quite astonishing, and at least as true to aural EBVT III as any given ETD tuning towards an aural ET.

I have it all on video, will post ASAP.

@Jim: I think it has to do with your 0.25 c window. I noticed that a very small discrepancy on TL makes for a huge difference aurally!


Edited by pppat (04/13/11 05:47 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1659645 - 04/13/11 05:41 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Ok, I'm uploading the videos right now. Meanwhile, here are the numbers from tonight's tuning session.

The instrument is a Yamaha C3. I used tunelab's fully automatic tuning curve, with 8:4's in the bass and 8:2's in the treble.

Thomas' numbers gave this chart (note/partial/deviation from 12^2, in cents/custom offset, in cents):

Template 0.4828261 10.4858 1.2011406 14.4484
IntervalSel 2 3
IHCon C1 0.233
IHCon C2 0.094
IHCon C3 0.134
IHCon C4 0.304
IHCon C5 0.753
IHCon C6 2.422
A0 6 -12.2 0.08
A#0 6 -10.8 0.61
B0 6 -11.8 -1.12
C1 6 -8.5 1.38
C#1 6 -10.4 -1.11
D1 6 -7.7 0.95
D#1 6 -8.2 -0.19
E1 6 -8.3 -0.88
F1 6 -6.1 0.78
F#1 6 -7.5 -1.09
G1 6 -4.2 1.77
G#1 6 -6.1 -0.56
A1 6 -5.6 -0.51
A#1 6 -3.6 1.13
B1 6 -5.4 -1.12
C2 6 -2.5 1.39
C#2 6 -5.3 -1.72
D2 6 -2.5 0.77
D#2 6 -2.6 0.25
E2 6 -3.7 -1.15
F2 4 -2.7 1.03
F#2 4 -4.5 -1.08
G2 4 -1.1 2.01
G#2 4 -4.0 -1.17
A2 4 -3.1 -0.60
A#2 4 -1.3 0.98
B2 4 -3.1 -1.09
C3 4 0.0 1.72
C#3 4 -2.6 -1.15
D3 4 -1.3 -0.12
D#3 4 -0.1 0.78
E3 4 -1.8 -1.17
F3 2 -1.2 0.58
F#3 2 -2.6 -1.08
G3 2 0.5 1.82
G#3 2 -1.1 0.02
A3 2 -1.9 -0.91
A#3 2 0.7 1.48
B3 2 -1.7 -1.07
C4 2 1.8 2.20
C#4 2 -2.5 -2.35
D4 2 -0.3 -0.29
D#4 2 0.7 0.47
E4 2 -0.9 -1.39
F4 2 1.3 0.58
F#4 2 -0.2 -1.08
G4 2 3.0 1.82
G#4 2 1.5 0.02
A4 1 -0.9 -0.91
A#4 1 1.0 0.90
B4 1 -0.9 -1.20
C5 1 2.0 1.48
C#5 1 -0.7 -1.37
D5 1 1.3 0.43
D#5 1 1.4 0.38
E5 1 0.1 -1.16
F5 1 2.4 0.89
F#5 1 0.6 -1.08
G5 1 4.0 2.01
G#5 1 1.1 -1.17
A5 1 2.0 -0.60
A#5 1 3.9 0.98
B5 1 2.1 -1.23
C6 1 5.1 1.39
C#6 1 2.5 -1.72
D6 1 5.5 0.77
D#6 1 5.5 0.25
E6 1 4.7 -1.15
F6 1 6.7 0.29
F#6 1 6.6 -0.54
G6 1 8.9 0.91
G#6 1 8.8 0.01
A6 1 9.3 -0.46
A#6 1 11.4 0.64
B6 1 10.7 -1.18
C7 1 14.0 0.86
C#7 1 13.3 -1.22
D7 1 17.2 1.22
D#7 1 17.3 -0.39
E7 1 18.6 -0.88
F7 1 22.4 0.93
F#7 1 22.5 -1.15
G7 1 27.8 1.70
G#7 1 27.3 -1.44
A7 1 31.8 0.08
A#7 1 35.5 0.61
B7 1 37.2 -1.19
C8 1 43.1 0.84

.......................

... and this is the chart with my "aurally demanded" changes - the three notes moved are marked in bold:

Template 0.4828261 10.4858 1.2011406 14.4484
IntervalSel 2 3
IHCon C1 0.233
IHCon C2 0.094
IHCon C3 0.134
IHCon C4 0.304
IHCon C5 0.753
IHCon C6 2.422
A0 6 -12.2 0.08
A#0 6 -10.8 0.61
B0 6 -11.8 -1.12
C1 6 -8.5 1.38
C#1 6 -10.4 -1.11
D1 6 -7.7 0.95
D#1 6 -8.2 -0.19
E1 6 -8.3 -0.88
F1 6 -6.1 0.78
F#1 6 -7.5 -1.09
G1 6 -4.2 1.77
G#1 6 -6.1 -0.56
A1 6 -5.6 -0.51
A#1 6 -3.6 1.13
B1 6 -5.4 -1.12
C2 6 -2.5 1.39
C#2 6 -5.3 -1.72
D2 6 -2.5 0.77
D#2 6 -2.6 0.25
E2 6 -3.7 -1.15
F2 4 -2.7 1.03
F#2 4 -4.5 -1.08
G2 4 -1.1 2.01
G#2 4 -4.0 -1.17
A2 4 -3.1 -0.60
A#2 4 -1.3 0.98
B2 4 -4.0 -1.98
C3 4 -0.9 0.83
C#3 4 -2.6 -1.15
D3 4 -1.3 -0.12
D#3 4 -0.1 0.78
E3 4 -1.8 -1.17
F3 2 -1.2 0.58
F#3 2 -2.6 -1.08
G3 2 0.5 1.82
G#3 2 -1.1 0.02
A3 2 -1.9 -0.91
A#3 2 0.7 1.48
B3 2 -1.7 -1.07
C4 2 1.8 2.20
C#4 2 -2.5 -2.35
D4 2 -0.3 -0.29
D#4 2 0.7 0.47
E4 2 -0.9 -1.39
F4 2 1.3 0.58
F#4 2 -0.2 -1.08
G4 2 3.0 1.82
G#4 2 1.5 0.02
A4 1 -0.9 -0.91
A#4 1 1.0 0.90
B4 1 -0.9 -1.20
C5 1 2.0 1.48
C#5 1 -0.7 -1.37
D5 1 2.9 2.10
D#5 1 1.4 0.38
E5 1 0.1 -1.16
F5 1 2.4 0.89
F#5 1 0.6 -1.08
G5 1 4.0 2.01
G#5 1 1.1 -1.17
A5 1 2.0 -0.60
A#5 1 3.9 0.98
B5 1 2.1 -1.23
C6 1 5.1 1.39
C#6 1 2.5 -1.72
D6 1 5.5 0.77
D#6 1 5.5 0.25
E6 1 4.7 -1.15
F6 1 6.7 0.29
F#6 1 6.6 -0.54
G6 1 8.9 0.91
G#6 1 8.8 0.01
A6 1 9.3 -0.46
A#6 1 11.4 0.64
B6 1 10.7 -1.18
C7 1 14.0 0.86
C#7 1 13.3 -1.22
D7 1 17.2 1.22
D#7 1 17.3 -0.39
E7 1 18.6 -0.88
F7 1 22.4 0.93
F#7 1 22.5 -1.15
G7 1 27.8 1.70
G#7 1 27.3 -1.44
A7 1 31.8 0.08
A#7 1 35.5 0.61
B7 1 37.2 -1.19
C8 1 43.1 0.84





Edited by pppat (04/13/11 05:49 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1659648 - 04/13/11 05:44 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Bill has a very good point there. At some point you should tune using using just the WT option in tunelab too to comare.

Kees

Top
#1659654 - 04/13/11 05:51 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Bill has a very good point there. At some point you should tune using using just the WT option in tunelab too to comare.

Kees


Yes, definitely - let's do that in a controlled session next week (controlled as in enough time and no need to leave the piano ready for concert... smile )
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1659656 - 04/13/11 05:54 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
Originally Posted By: pppat

@Thomas: You can hear that in your sound clip, when you extend the temperament upwards. You make an aural note about D4-G4 being kind of noisy, and then you move along. Thus the impossible equation at D5!




I admit I was quite tired when I made that recording, with a lot of different things on my mind. I don't doubt that I made a few obvious mistakes, and I might have noticed that when I listened to the recording I made using some headphones.

I just got back from an exhausting trip today. I'll try absorbing what's been said in the past couple days, and see how I can use this information.
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

Top
#1659667 - 04/13/11 06:09 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: pppat]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
And just a double check, did I present the ideas of extending EBVT III accurately?
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

Top
#1659672 - 04/13/11 06:19 PM Re: Possible EBVT III implementation on TuneLab [Re: Thomas Dowell]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Tdowel
And just a double check, did I present the ideas of extending EBVT III accurately?


I really think you did! And I think you'll be delightfully surprised about how the combination of your temperament awareness, your aural skills, your math, and you participating in this thread made this Y C3 sound tonight smile

PS sometimes I'd like to live somewhere where you can get decent upload speeds... but in half an hour or so the videos will be ready. DS


Edited by pppat (04/13/11 06:20 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
Page 6 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
CP50 noisy key...
by G. Bonner
40 minutes 17 seconds ago
Partial versus Full Regulation
by MusicMagellan
47 minutes 55 seconds ago
Knabe WG48 Opinions?
by stevetothink
Today at 10:58 AM
More instruments via MIDI?
by badbob001
Today at 10:42 AM
Xmas present
by Jytte
Today at 09:29 AM
Forum Stats
77391 Members
42 Forums
160054 Topics
2350505 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission