How about this question:

How would Christopher Shih's performance, especially his Brahms-Handel from the finals, have stacked up in the "real" Cliburn competition?

Maybe some of you who have followed the professional Cliburn competitions (especially the '09) might have some perspective on it. I can't be objective because I'm partial to Chris, but I think he would have been right up there -- certainly "finals-worthy," and in the discussion for a top prize.

I realize that in various ways this is apples and oranges -- an unequal comparison, perhaps mainly because in the "real" Cliburn, you're playing a lot more repertoire; it's easier to 'perfect' your pieces if you're playing less. Plus, he's older than those competitors, which has advantages. But for the sake of this question, I'm talking just in terms of how well he played what he did play.

It might seem like we already have a measure on this, because he was in the professional Cliburn (in '97) and didn't get past the 1st round. But that's not really a measure. He's almost certainly not the same pianist that he was then (I realize this doesn't mean he would necessarily be better now, but I'd guess he probably is), plus, we don't know if he played up to his capacity in that event. So, this question really is anybody's guess and anybody's judgment.

Based on what I saw in the 09 Cliburn, I have NOOOO idea, because I have NOOOO idea how the judges made some of their choices. Same with other Cliburn competitions (I've gone back and seen footage of other previous competitions).

I'll avoid competitions myself, for the most part.

No idea as I didn't hear it (nor did I hear much of any of the comp). This thread has dragged on for what seems like an eternity though...just sayin'.

The nice thing about threads on an internet forum is that no one is required to read them and you can always take a pass if you're bored with them...just sayin'.

Not if you were in the competition!

And I think not for many others either.

But as for you ....maybe it wouldn't have dragged as much if you had participated more!


P.S. Thanks, Jazzy!

I wanted to respond with something witty (not toward you in a negative way, but just to be a little funny), but I thought about it and I do kind of see your point now.

Oops, but in saying that, did I just contribute another post to this thread and move it back to the top again?

But how else do you increase your post count quickly?

Actually, ask Mark C that question...

Well I dunno, Judy thought people would find this interesting, and they did, and so did I, and they did, and people kept asking and saying stuff, including could we please say when the recordings got put on youtube, so I did, and I thought people might find it interesting to say what they think of how Shih's playing would stack up in the pro Cliburn competition, and we'll see if they do.

I think that about covers it.

But it doesn't hold a candle to the "Buying a Piano in Singapore" thread which keeps plugging along like the energizer bunny...year after year after year. Nothing seems to kill that one - not even our moderators !!!

Never heard of it!

(Have you?)

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/82991/88.html

Doesn't have as many replies as the Chopin thread, but the Chopin thread makes sense to keep going on forever.

.....and this one doesn't

Haha, but it's fun having one of those threads floating around. I was on a forum for a video game I enjoyed playing in middle school and high school, and there was this one thread on a topic, and I guess after a few pages it should have been finished, but it just kept going and going through HUNDREDS of pages of posts!

Can I confess that I found Shih's Finals performance to be boring and colorless, in great need of some breathing and touches of true lyricism, his technique non-withstanding.
This with all due respect.

OK.....but please pardon my asking, are you very familiar with the piece?

I'm not much doubting that you are, but in case you aren't.....the reason I ask is that variation pieces often strike people that way unless they're quite familiar with the piece, almost no matter who's playing.

And, I think, Brahms in general often strikes people that way, unless they're quite familiar with the piece, almost no matter who's playing.

BTW: Schubert too.

BANNED!

I am not easily offended, so go ahead and doubt me. It is quite all right, especially that I have proclaimed my dislike towards some of Brahms' pieces on several occasions.
So I have never played the piece nor have I toyed with it. But I have listened to it on multiple occasions, by way of Arrau. I know it is not fair to compare. But Arrau captivates from the first phrase, with the sweetness of his trills. Shih has an aggressive touch which tires you out in a relatively long piece with many quasi-repeats. His phrasing is also monotonous to my ears. I think that exquisite dynamic phrasing is a fundamental requirement when playing variations. But I offer my opinion only as a personal comment, not as an expert opinion. I grant you that greater familiarity with the score often generates better understanding of what a performer is trying to do. But you do not always have the luxury of an extremely informed audience, so you got to appeal immediately to their ear and overall musicality.

maybe you are just too used to that recording. shih played with unbelievable [dynamic] control and he reserved some dramatic output and volume for specific variations so the audience does not tire from excitement.

Allow me to disagree. Check out a few versions of the Handel var. on You Tube. I just looked. Richter and Ashkenazi make those variations into great music.
As for Schubert, I am on more solid ground there, and oh do we differ on this!!!!

Didn't say he didnt't. It just felt "canned" to my ears.

As I said, I didn't much doubt it -- just checking.


Aha!

But seriously folks .....good answer (need I say).



Are you sure you're talking about what I was, in what you quoted?
I was talking about what I thought is many people's reaction. I think you might be talking just about yours.....and also I was talking there about Brahms in general, not just this piece.

Yes......whether or not that's the case about what Andromaque said (and I'm assuming it isn't particularly), we can easily get into something like that. Alexander Brailowsky sort of ruined anybody else's chance with me on Chopin's F# minor Polonaise.
It was the first recording of it that I heard, it bowled me over, and ever since then, to me that's basically how the piece "goes."

Nicely said about Shih's performance. And BTW, IMO what he did with the final variation before the fugue was extraordinary, including that he observed a detail in the score that few people do (by the way, Arrau, whom I loved, didn't; he completely ignored it, which is what most people do) .....Shih observed it, and made it into something special. His performance was full of things like that -- things that perhaps can be appreciated only if one knows the piece very well. That's not to negate the impressions of others (at all!), and fine details like these might not count a lot in the big picture. But just sayin'.

I'm sure you're a busy guy, stores, but I was surprised you didn't comment at all on a fairly big talking point of the final of the recent amateur Cliburn. One of the prizewinners played the last third or so of the Goldberg variations, and he added a descant to the end of the last variation which flowed into his personal version of the reprise of the aria (pre-announced as a personal version). It was well received by many, including me, who felt his personal touches were wonderful. I thought you were really into Bach and the Goldbergs? How many pros have the guts to "do a Clark" nowadays? Not many, I think. Whether or not you deplore the concept, I suggest that it's well worth a listen.

In answer to your question, Mark, I think Chris's final performance was thoroughly "real" Cliburn material. During the performance someone commented in the chat room that he preferred Chris's performance to Haochen Zhang's from Cliburn 2009, and I felt the same way. I don't know the work at all apart from hearing those two performances, and I found Chris's more compelling and beautiful.

IMHO, he would not survive Round I even with that performance.. Perhaps I am fresh from the Tchaikovsky which is showcasing incredible pianists and performances.. He really did a very good job with a very difficult piece but he does not yet compare to the top rank of artists we have seen at the best professional competitions. I think you guys are being too generous, in part because of Shih's obviously more advanced playing in comparison with most of the other amateur Cliburn finalists. But put him next to Kunz, Bozhanov, Yeol Eum Son and Hochen Zhag indeed, and the difference will be more evident.