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Hello, all. I'm new here.

I've just started playing piano around the beginning of January this year. I've wanted a piano ever since I was a kid, but started playing guitar at 12 and drums at 16. Now at 29, piano has found a place in my list of musical interests. I'm decently skilled in carpentry and decided that I'm going to build an upright cabinet for which my Casio CDP-100 can call home. I'm really in love with the Essex EUP 111e and used it as a template for my cab. I'm making it out of 3/4" MDF. I've made some schematics and whatnot if anyone on here is interested. I just wanted to introduce myself. Also, I was wondering if anyone here has taken on a similar project and if you had any words of advice? Thank you for your time.

-Zuul

looking forward to pics of your progress. maybe give us some ideas.

I'm thinking that you might design it to also house speakers although designing speaker enclosures does requires some calculation and engineering to determine the internal volume size of the ports. And you have to balance that with cosmetics

Also, I'm wondering how you will finish the MDF. Veneer?

This is what I've gotten figured out so far. Weather permitting I might get started on cuts tomorrow. I'm planning on just priming and painting it. But the guitar player in me is thinking about covering the whole thing in Tolex. The vinyl covering that's used for guitar cabs. Could be cool. I'm still undecided at the moment. Building it comes first regardless. Thanks for having a look. I'm pretty excited to get this started.

-Zuul

I was thinking about putting speakers in it at some point. But I think I'll skip it. I can always just put speakers on top of it if needed. Headphones are where it's at for me at the moment. And many, many moments to come.


-Zuul

That's a pretty heavy duty cabinet!
So you're makin' it look like a real upright?
I just went with a light stand.
http://pianocheater.com/piano/rig.html

I'd love to see how it comes out

Tolex with metal corners, now that would be a cool piano.

But really, if you are going to all that trouble you may as well use some kind of "tone wood". MDF is just "dead" sounding. Then you place the speakers inside not on to. On top would put so much effort to waste

The sound of a piano radiates from the whole instrument. I have a theory that nothing smaller than a Piano will every really sound like a piano. You are doing most of the work See what Yamah did with their N2 Yamaha N2 The top opens and speakers are under the lid

Wow! Thank you for that link. I've never seen that before. I really dig it. Not only from a clean build sort of way but from a weighs less than what I was about to build way. ha! As for the MDF and it's deadness, I'm stuck with it. I've already got 2 sheets waiting for me in the garage. My mind is already working on a new cabinet. You saved me from making a mistake I've made before. I wanted to make an arcade cab for as long as I can remember and built one. A full size, stand up arcade machine.

Then I saw that folks had made smaller Bartop arcades and I kicked myself for not making that in the first place.

It turned out way better than the first.

I'm going to rework my plans and see what I come up with. I dig the speakers inside with the lid action. I wasn't liking the idea of cutting sound holes or attaching speaker grills to the front if I had speakers in it. That's why I was just going to skip it. Thank you, very much.

More soon I hope.


-Zuul
Always to quick to decide.

screw it, why not just build an avantgrand n3 lol

prolly would be easier just to buy some hunk of junk baby grand and gut her out.

Eh, but where's the fun in that? I like the project. The work. Plus when you're finished you've got something unique that you can be proud of. Like writing a song.

-Z

Nice project, will be inspiration.

Do you plan replacing the Casio with another model? If so, other one must fit the cabinet also. Think about the pedals.

You could also make it for a DP with rear speakers such as Roland FP-4 or Yamaha P-155, and then place it the way the speakers play inside the cabinet - then the sound goes up through the lid. Even MDF will do some resonating job; look at the cheap guitars, they're not wooden, but some of them sound good.

Also look at the keyboard lid, it's essential to make it look nice. The best is curved, made of one piece, and smartly hidden when it's open.

Thank you for posting your project!

Thank you. Yeah, I doubt I'll be using the Casio forever. But it's good to learn with. Weighted keys, full 88. It's about L-53" W-11" H-5.5" The measurements I'm working with are 60"x20"x8" for the keyboard area. I've checked a bunch of different models online and I'm pretty sure I shouldn't run into any problems when upgrading. I completely agree with you on the importance of a nice lid. It's the main thing I've been stuck on with my drawings. At one point I was going to set it up using drawer rail slides so that the front flipped up and the whole thing slid into the cabinet body. But I've got this idea using 2 hinges that I think should work well enough. I'm working a new sketch right now that shows my intentions. Should be able to post it later.

Thanks again.
-Z

that would be a project in itself. I would be proud of a digital grand retrofit. not to mention refinishing all the wood that probably looks like crap.

You're right, I can see how that could be sort of fun in it's own way.

Very interesting. Please keep us posted.
Don't you think MDF might be end up being too heavy for the completed product?
I am kind of tempted to go that way as well. I've been shopping for a CA63, but the local dealer is asking for an outrageous price and refuse to negotiate. So I've been contemplating buying an MP10 online and building a cabinet for it as well.

Ok. After taking the internal speaker idea into consideration and changing the bottom, I'm finished with the design. It's not too different from what I had originally. I changed the bottom because what's the point of having an unused box space under the keyboard? Just more weight which isn't necessary. The weather is going to be crappy for the next few days so I might have to wait. I really don't want to cut this stuff indoors. MDF is extra dusty. I might just hang some cloth sheets all around the garage in a "Dexter kill room" sort of way to try and trap as much of it as I can. Here's what I've got...

The aspect and dimensions on the computer drawings are a bit off but good enough for working idea. I was messing around this morning with an old paint shop pro 7 program and I'm not the most skilled at using it. Thanks again for the speaker idea. I think that'll be a nice touch.

-Zuul

Wishing it'll stay nice outside for a few days.

Hey, it's a DP right, who needs "traditional" lids? Why not have the entire keyboard flip down and or slide into the body? That'd be cool. Maybe even replace the entire electronics by sliding out the entire keybed and replacing it with another?

How about a space for an LCD display? Depending on how you finish it out, you can go with a smoked glass face to the display behind it, so when it's not on, you can't tell the monitor is back there (much cooler than a sliding door, ala player pianos).

Also, to echo what someone else mentioned, be sure you have a solid mount for your pedals, you'll regret it if you don't have it as you get more advanced.

Have you seen a Korg LP350. That is a very compact way to build a cabinet with a key cover. It would also be easy to build.

About attaching pedals: notice almost all of them have screws on the bottom that hold on a cover plate. Replace the cover with something much wider that can connect two or three pedals and then that connects to a crossbeam.

I'm still wondering why you would use MDF?

I chose MDF because it's very clean and easy to work with. It's not really all that much heavier than plywood. Maybe about 10-15 lbs per sheet of the same thickness. Plywood is a @!$#% when it comes to warping and stuff like that, from my experience. I might've just had cheap plywood? With my having to cut some pieces 3" x 58.5" I tried to imagine what a pain it would be to keep plywood from getting wonky and figured MDF was the way to go. Besides, if it doesn't work out well enough I'll have learned something and I'll just try again. haha

-Z

ChrisA,

I've not seen that Korg but I'd planned on making something like that just after I bought the keyboard. I don't like not having a strong structure covering it. I've been using a homemade cover but it's still not keeping it as safe as something with a lid. I just think a nice cabinet would be cool to build/have. MDF just seemed like the way to go for me. I've never used it before. It's the material most folks use for arcades but I opted for plywood. Mainly because it's cheaper. Only by about $12 or so. haha Figured it was as good of a time as ever to try something new. As for pedals, right now I'm using an M-Audio SP-2. I plan on cutting a notch in the center of the middle brace to give me room for the pedal. If/when I get something new I'll just adjust whatever needs to be changed to accommodate the new gear. Should be minimal whatever the case my be. It'll be a long while before I come to that bridge. The CDP-100 will be more than enough for me for years.


-Z

I guess I misunderstood your intentions. I thought we were going after an acoustic piano look. Im guessing your leaning for that korglp350 look. (which looks like your typical casio stand)

Zuul, great project, and I agree with your comments about MDF. I've built many a bookcase and paneled cabinet door with the stuff, and it's great. One good thing about it is zero preparation for painting and then the painting results are outstanding. It won't take end-screwing without splitting, so watch your design there.

For speakers, my son just loaned me his Rocket 6 powered monitors for my DP at home. Wow! What a sound! If I were doing what you are doing, I'd make space in the cabinet at around ear level for a pair of these.

Looking forward to postings from you about your progress.

craig1999871,

No, you didn't misunderstand. I do want an acoustic piano look. But after thinking it over, there's no sense in making the area from the keyboard down look like a piano. It'd be empty space, extra weight, and wasted materials. So, basically it'll be a sort of half piano type thing. An L shaped cabinet with a lid. Who knows though, I may like how it looks and build the lower part to match. Either way the top half will be the same. Shouldn't be too difficult to add a rectangular box for the bottom if I change my mind. It may turn into a large pile of crap. ....we'll see. ha


coker,

Thanks. Yeah, I hear those are pretty sweet monitors. A guy at my work does a lot of recording for local bands and he recommended those to me also. For right now, since I'm still learning and those cost a bit much, I'll just use some 2.1 computer speakers. I don't play much without headphones anyway.

I've read about MDF and it's hatred for end-screwing so I got a bunch of L brackets for those areas. Glue and those should do well enough. Did you have any troubles when sealing the edges of the MDF on those bookcases?

Zuul

Zuul, edges seem to paint up just fine. I haven't noticed any sealing problems.

If you have a router or a table saw, you may want to make a slot in one panel to accept the edge of the panel that meets it at a 90 degree angle, if you know what I mean. This would have a cleaner look than L brackets and enable you to glue the two pieces together.

Coker

I decided to go the "real" approach for my cabinet. I picked up a 1922 Adam Schaaf 5 foot baby grand for free after advertising on the local buy and sell for a broken one. I am currently stripping it down to refinish it. I removed the harp and keys and am left with the empty box now. The following pic shows the locations that I am placing four 6 inch woofers and four dome tweeters, with two 12 inch drivers for the bottom end.

Fantastic! Tell us what you do with all the metal you removed from it. Do scrap yards take that stuff?

Well, I had a friend with a truck and snowmobile trailer. I was amazed at how little the cabinet weighs in comparison to the harp and keys. I didn't actually weigh it but that sucker must be close to 150 lbs. He was going to take it to the scrap dealer but as far as I know hasn't yet.

CMac! That's going to turn out really nice. I'll be looking out for updates for sure.

I had a little time today to get some work done before it got all crappy outside. Here's what I've got...



I put everything in the garage, cleaned up, came in the house and felt pretty good about the progress. Thought all my cuts were made. Yeah.... Forgot the damn top! Oh well, still good progress nonetheless. MDF is awesome to work with, aside from the dust. It cuts so nicely.

1) those 2.1 computer speakers are about the worst choice for digital piano. Even some way-cheap monitors would be better. the low-end 2.1 system is lacking in the exactly the range you play most on a piano. You need something with at least a 4.5" driver on the left and right side.

2) if gluing MDF it's best to make some kind of self aligning joint either with a router or dado blade on the table saw. but joints just have zero holding power.

Dowels work really well and are cheap and easy. If you plan to cover the MDF you can be really simple and drill from the outside and hammer the dowel in like a nail then hide it with wood filler. If you plan to paint you need to drill two holes from the inside of the joint and glue the dowel into one part before assembly.

3) The best way to finish MDF is by covering it up. The Tolex idea was good. Wood veneer is more common or even formica. Lacking any of that it's paint, sand, paint, sand, paint repeat as required.

4) better then l-brackets are 3/4" cleat blocks. Strips of 3/4" square hardwood that you glue and screw to inside corners.

How will you drive these speakers? I guess you'd need a rack of amps but I think the most critical part will be the way the stereo signal from the DP is crossed over to the many driver channels.

When Yamaha built the N3 Advent Grand they were able to sample an acoustic piano with a mic placed at every speaker location so each speaker had it's own sample set. But your system will have to somehow work with stereo samples. I've been wonding the best why to do this. What are you planning?

Didn't know that about the dowels. I like that idea. I used the cleat block way for my arcades. Very strong joint. I'm still undecided on whether to paint or cover. My wife is pretty crafty and brought this to my attention. Vinyl similar to Marshall Tolex The actual Marshall Tolex is wicked costly. This stuff looks close enough to me. I'm thinking about having them send a sample. Thank you for all your help. I'm sure that dowel thing is going to save me some headaches.

Chris, I picked up a Yamaha RX-N600e stereo amp to drive them. The amp will drive 6 channels at close to 95 watts a piece for an 8 ohm load. I am crossing the 4 sets of woofers and tweeters at 3k and just powering the 12 inchers toward the ground as is. That will use up 6 amps there. The speakers are rated for 100 watts a piece with 20 oz magnets. At this point I am planning on mounting the speakers directly to the soundboard and hoping that it does not introduce too much in the way of spurious resonant frequencies. Of course I will need to introduce a new baffle board on the bottom of the instrument to close the box. The volume of the new box will be large and I do not intend to port for anything.

As far as the imaging of the piano goes this is where I intend to hope for the best. The amplifier has a way of taking the 2 stereo channels and pushing them out in typical "surround" fashion. The left and right channels will be the far left and right as normal. The bottom drivers will be left and right from the "B" set of amps. The other two sets at the center and rear will be from the surround center and rear channels. I could have just put the 2 sets of drivers in the cabinet but a real piano is resonating from just about everywhere in the box to begin with. The sound engineer may have used a stereo or quad set of mics to capture the original sound from specific locations on the original instrument but this doesn't necessarily mean that the amplified sound will be accurately reproduced when listening on the piano bench. There are so many reflections off the lid etc that I wanted to create more of the "wall of sound" from the original instrument and let the imaging take care of itself. (If that makes any sense:) ) I owned a pair of Magnepan speakers years ago and loved the wall of sound they produce. It will be an experiment for sure.

Yes, that is exactly the way acoustic grands do it. They send sound out in all directions in three dimensions.

I'd not thought about using an A/V receiver. They have DSP inside that solves a few problems and you can buy them cheap. And I could connect my Mac to an A/V receiver with just a single fiber optic cable. (All Macs have s/pdif optical out)

Appliance Epoxy. Smooth factory-like finish, ultra hard enamel. This stuff is really nice. I put some on a scrap piece I had from the other day and I love the way it looks. Very shiny, very smooth, and only $5 a can. I've still got to figure out what method to use for sealing the edges. I've read that a mixture of wood glue and water works, or prime and sand a number of times. A guy from work told me to try using spackling. Haven't tried any yet. But something is definitely needed. The edges of this stuff are thirsty. Have a look...

I think it might turn out better than I'd hoped.

Cheers
-Z

The build went very well. I didn't seem to hit any snags along the way. Got some latex enamel, satin black for the inside. I ended up not going with the epoxy spray paint. And I'm glad I didn't. I took a chance and stopped by a local fabric store to see if they had any vinyl that would be similar to guitar amp Tolex. SCORE!! I got 9 yards of the stuff for $25. That's less than what paint would've cost. I've never covered anything in vinyl before. Having done so, I'd like to add that I dislike spray adhesive a lot. That stuff gets everywhere and stays. Anyway, here's how it turned out.

As you can see from the shots, the damn spray glue gets everywhere. No worries though. A little goo gone and it cleaned up rather nicely. I'm very happy with it. The only thing I'm still stuck on is whether or not to apply moulding. I just placed the brown trim on the finished cab and I'm not sure I like it. I think it's just because the brown looks bad against the black. I'm digging the thought of an alien green trim on black though. hmm.... I don't know. I've got some metal corners from an old Peavey amp that I still need to add but I'm taking a break for a few days. What do you guys think about adding the trim?

Thanks for having a look.
-Z

2 more.

who needs those cabinets when you can build your own a box of band aids later.

Great job, it looks really sleek.

No trim.

Nice job! How about red with a giant Nord logo?

Looks nice - congrats...

Nice!

I'm thinking along the same lines but with locking wheels to move it around (I play in a couple of different rooms in the house). I'll have to get busy in my shop real soon.

Jim

really nice! just needs some more work for the stand. looks top heavy to the eye. Really nice job with the cabinet though. Throw some polk m70's on the side;)

lol There isn't a stand at the moment. I've just got it sitting on a desk. I'm still working on how I want to build that part. The desk is plenty sturdy for the time being. I'm thinking of getting some Rokit monitors for the inside of the top part. It opens similar to the N2. It's not really important at the moment. I mostly play through headphones.

Thanks for the comments, guys. I appreciate it. I'd still like some ideas for trim though, if you've got some.

-Z