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So you really would/did actually perform the WTC without any pedal?? or are you talking in general?

Winsome One! What a great question! The conclusion reached by the OP in the thread that ChopinAddict linked to for you to read was this: Let your ears be your guide.

I found these for you to listen to, if you care to. Tatiana Nikolayeva is one of my very most favorite Bach interpreters. The sound quality of this recording is not great, but my impression is that she is NOT pedalling in these renditions AT ALL!

Tatiana Nikolayeva-French Suite No.5 (part 1)

Tatiana Nikolayeva-French Suite No.5 (part 2)

Then, there is Emil Gilels (another of my faves), and in these renditions, my impression is that he DOES pedal, but ever, ever so slightly... sometimes...

Emil Gilels-French Suite No.5 (part 1)

Emil Gilels-French Suite No.5 (part 2)

What do you think? Here are two professionals NOT PEDALLING! Whether or not to pedal any particular Bach piece or phrase is, IMO, a very personal decision, to be made based on very personal expressive needs. DOWN WITH DOGMA, no matter how deeply imbued with intellect or how shallowly asserted through ignorance.

Hope this helps!
--Andy

P.S. That thread ChopinAddict linked to has lots and lots of very cool posts and is worth reading.

I use quite a lot of pedal here, in the sense of using it for many small effects, not smearing the whole sound. I think it works, particularly in the sarabande, though you may disagree.

It's a judgement call at the end of the day, isn't it, like so much in music?

Bach didn't write for piano, so if you play his music on a piano you're making a transcription. As with any transcription, there's a range of possibilities between doing your best to preserve the timbre and dynamics of the original instrument, to making free use of all the features of the new one.

It's not a 'right' and 'wrong' question, but a matter of figuing where you, or your audience, thinks the line may best be drawn. My experience is that few decent pianists shun the pedal completely, and few go to the other extreme and (for example) use the whole dynamic range from ppp to fff. Most people are somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I'm a pedal-phobe because (a) I'm training for the day I can afford a harpsichord and (b) I've heard too many young pianists pedalling like they're on a bicycle.

I wonder if the original comment about 'sounding like a beginner' reflects a view that one should use pedal to cover up inadequate finger legato technique? Personally I'd hope not, but I belief such advice is not uncommon.

Of course it is legitimate, and for a very simple reason:
It is a one-hundred percent sure thing that Bach did not write any keyboard music with a modern piano's sustain pedal in mind. He just didn't. People can argue about it until blue in the face, but the fact that he didn't have it in mind means that nothing he wrote requires it.

Whether people want to use it in Bach, like to use it, can't play without it, etc., is a whole different issue, and really is about the individual's taste. And, I think, much revolves around people's ability to play well without the pedal, which many are not used to doing. Personally, I rarely use pedal in Bach, and have found that teaching myself how to play without it is one of the best things I've ever done for myself at the piano. I recommend it (but I don't necessarily dislike Bach playing that does use it, either, at least not for that reason alone).

Ummm...no. I'm not even going to argue this one...I'm just going to say you're wrong. You use the pedal as a crutch, but that's ok...to each his own.

I'd reckon that a tiny bit of pedal in Bach won't exactly hurt, especially if used right and shoudln't be taken as a crutch.

On the other hand comment that 'you shoulsd use the pedal whenever you want a passage to sound louder (more robust).' is somewhat misleading to say the least... :-/ Too bad that I agree with stores but that HAD to happen at some point in life, no?

Sorry to hear that. My practice time today (yesterday now) sounded like sheet, because my focus wasn't there (yes, unlike our book readers who think their altered focus doesn't affect the final product, I need to be focused). I pushed myself through my normal 16 hour day and that probably wasn't a good idea, because now I'm kind of paying for it and today I'm going to have to cut back.

Even a stopped clock gives the correct time twice a day. ;-)

This isn't always the case actually!

On Saturday (this Saturday), 02:00 went to 03:00 (Summer time). So my clock which was stopped on 02:05 actually was once right that day!

LMAO!

Even less reason to pay attention to stores! lol

hahaha!

On the subject though...

I remain solid to my previous posts (in a Chopin thread): Can we know, EXACT instructions through a score? If not, how much freedom is provided to us (speaking as a pianist here)? How much is transmited through word of mouth and tradition, how much through scores and how much through... instinct?

I would dare to say that pedalling in Romantic works is based on instinct, rubato is based on tradition and so is the lack of usage of pedal in Bach. To all these there are exceptions, but as general rules it seems... logical.

Then again, I stand very honest to say that I'm extremely interested in what ways my works (as a composer) will be performed by the pianists, as long as there is respect to these works and my efforts. I can't provide exact information in any case (dealing with MIDI teaches you to be humble in such terms), so I'm hoping that tradition, education, and habbit will cover all those fields missing from the score. (example... "F" is forte. But how many dbs? How much velocity on a computer VST based instrument?)

I make no apologies for being a romantic interpreter of Baroque and Classical works.

My thoughts on pedaling in Bach and what Allegretto's teacher had to say...

For as much as I sound like a purist, I am not TRULY such. It is true that Bach didn't specifically compose for the piano, but those who argue that his works shouldn't be played on "our" instrument corner themselves, because very often Bach says, "keyboard instrument", which even in his day could mean one of many. To play, as one poster claimed above, Bach on the piano is not to "make a transcription"... there is no need to change Bach's score or to make an approximation of it.
Pedal in Bach is fine, BUTTTTTTT it should never be used in place of the fingers. One should make every attempt possible to find a fingering that allows him to make whatever connection necessary possible. If, after exhausting every possibility, making a small connection with the pedal is okay. I'm sorry, but debrucey's example, above, is not a good one. It IS a good example of what I often hear from students, but I don't want to hear that you're using the pedal, if you're going to use it and you don't use it judiciously enough, debrucey. I'm not saying that your suite is bad, but I'd like to hear it without the pedal (which would force you to think more about articulation, phrasing and color).
Andro, with very little pedal, yes. There are only a few places in each book where, momentarily, I find it necessary to fall on my own crutch.
I find it rather laughable that a(any)teacher would make a statement wherein they claim that one will sound like a beginner should they refrain from using the pedal in Bach. I would have to question such a teacher and hear what they have to say about things first, but that's an incredibly amateurish statement, if ever I've heard one and if true, then the beginner is the teacher.

From what I heard in your suite...no, you're not a "romantic interpreter"...far from it.

That may be what you like to hear, but its not what I like to hear. I'm not using it to cover deficiencies in the fingering. My teacher would never let me get away with that. I always learn Bach without touching the pedal to begin with. I am currently learning the 2nd partita, and have the whole thing memorized essentially, but I haven't yet used any pedal in it. I will though. I add it because I like the overtones and the slightly ethereal sound it lends the music.

I don't mean that I try to make it sound like romantic music. What I mean is I approach it from the perspective of someone who feels at home in romantic music, or particularly turn of the century french music. I don't suddenly try to become an authentic baroque musician when I play bach. I'm not comparing myself to 'romantic interpreters' such as Horowitz, lol.

Then you only play for yourself and you're really not interested in replicating that which Bach has written. If you don't need the pedal to cover deficiencies (I never said you did, but you do use it in spots where things are a bit tricky, which makes it a crutch) why would you resort to using it? I understand you like the overtones and ethereal sound (once again you're playing for yourself), but, if you incorporate the pedal long enough eventually you won't be able to produce the same results without it. If your teacher won't let you get away with it, then you're saying you know better than he/she by using it, yes? You don't have to answer, because I hear students answer this question all the time. I'm not deliberately giving you a hard time, debrucey, but I am using you as an example, since you posted the video. I think you CAN play your suite sans pedal and I'd love to hear you do so.

I understood what you meant. I'm not going to pursue this point, however, because I don't want you thinking I'm picking on you.

I don't use it as a crutch. Every passage in that suite I can play, and at first learned to play, without any pedal at all. My teacher is happy for me to use pedal colouristically as long as I can achieve all the notes without it, which I can. Theres nothing of disagreeing with my teacher or thinking I know better than him here. To say I play entirely for myself is to say I don't take into account how something will sound to an audience, which isnt true. It also assumes that everyone in the audience will agree with you and not me, which isn't necessarily true either.