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#1653095 - 04/02/11 12:09 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1437
Loc: Australia
As a child, I had the occasional rap over the knuckles with a ruler, from my piano teacher. It surely concentrates the mind, and I still have nothing but the greatest respect for that teacher.
My music teacher at school, would from time time, smash a wax 78 record over the head, when a pupil's concentration lapsed.
Unacceptable in today's politically correct climate, but damned effective at the time.
_________________________
Rob

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#1653294 - 04/02/11 07:15 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: weldon29
He's an egoistic douchebag,


I had a few music teachers like that. There does seem to be a bit of a pattern. Perhaps people who can't work with others gravitate toward the profession? Present company excepted, of course.

In Malaysia is it normal to hit children at home, school? If so, then this behaviour may seem totally normal to everyone concerned, including the child. As I said earlier, where I come from this would be considered abuse, and I would contact social services.

Perhaps you can learn a lot from this teacher. What they consider to be normal teaching methods will probably continue whether you are there or not - it's just a question of what you see.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1653305 - 04/02/11 07:47 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11405
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: weldon29
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

If you have observed the teacher teaching in the fashion, don't you expect similar methods to be employed on yourself? I see no good reason to treat a student in this way, and I advise you look for another teacher ASAP.
I actually considered walking out after a while, but as the teacher is quite a well known vocalist here, I decided to stay and see if I can get anything out of learning from him. He's an egoistic douchebag, but it seems that if I learn from him I might be able to get better results than with other vocal couch.( he didn't use the same method of teaching the child for me)


Do you think the only method of abuse is hitting? I'm sure he uses words much harsher than that. Be on your guard, and don't let him get away with anything! He doesn't deserve the honor of being a teacher, IMO.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1653307 - 04/02/11 07:49 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: keystring]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11405
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: keystring
Some excerpts from Musicalfossils, where teacher Matte Harre talks about people who have had abusive teachers and are trying to resume lessons many years later with the aftereffects:

Quote:
It takes time for adults to realize they are safe in the studio. What happens to these students while they are finding out just how safe, is that they are guarded and afraid. When they're afraid they quit breathing normally, they leave their bodies and go into their heads; and to control their feelings, they start thinking frantically. They try too hard.

When I get like this, I start making stupid mistakes that only make things worse. Instructions become incomprehensible. I don't know my left hand from my right. I don't like myself and I want to run away. It's no different with other students.


It doesn't appear to me that the behavior of the childhood teacher has done much to improve that student's musicianship. It's created roadblocks.

Here is another, where a *gifted* adult student has berated herself in the manner that her childhood teacher has done, and they get to the bottom of it:

Quote:
What I realized, and what we then talked about, was that my feeling was the same as hers when she was playing for her teacher as a child. She'd be intently involved in her music making when the teacher would yell and scare her. In the present case, I was the teacher so I could get annoyed and tell her to quit. But when it happened to her, she was the child and the student. If she'd reacted to her teacher as I reacted to her, she would have been called rude and impudent and this particular teacher would have hit her. I've seen this woman make a mistake and cover her head to ward off the impending blow.

How can people be totally involved in their learning if they are waiting for someone to yell at them or hit them? A part of them must always be watching and waiting for the interruption or attack. I don't yell at my students, young or old.

The final irony of this sad tale is that the woman was her teacher's best student. She was working on Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata at the age of 12. Her teacher had never had such a gifted student. Why did she feel the need to treat her student this way? People do not understand that there are problems being a teacher's best student.


This page is worth reading in its entirety.

the bruises they suffered in their education as children ... interfere

I hope that anyone who still romanticizes abuse as some kind of spice leading to artistry will stop doing so.





Thanks for posting this, keystring. I really enjoyed the article, and I agree that many people romanticize the pain that abuse can cause when they see those that excel in spite of it. I don't think a human being hast to have tremendous pain in their lives to know what pain feels like and how to express it. We are all born with the same spectrum of emotions.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1653358 - 04/02/11 10:03 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: keystring]
ghostwind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: keystring

I hope that anyone who still romanticizes abuse as some kind of spice leading to artistry will stop doing so.


Who's romanticizing abuse in the manner you describe? A silly notion or accusation if you are referring to any poster in this thread.

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#1653359 - 04/02/11 10:06 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Morodiene]
ghostwind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: keystring
Some excerpts from Musicalfossils, where teacher Matte Harre talks about people who have had abusive teachers and are trying to resume lessons many years later with the aftereffects:

Quote:
It takes time for adults to realize they are safe in the studio. What happens to these students while they are finding out just how safe, is that they are guarded and afraid. When they're afraid they quit breathing normally, they leave their bodies and go into their heads; and to control their feelings, they start thinking frantically. They try too hard.

When I get like this, I start making stupid mistakes that only make things worse. Instructions become incomprehensible. I don't know my left hand from my right. I don't like myself and I want to run away. It's no different with other students.


It doesn't appear to me that the behavior of the childhood teacher has done much to improve that student's musicianship. It's created roadblocks.

Here is another, where a *gifted* adult student has berated herself in the manner that her childhood teacher has done, and they get to the bottom of it:

Quote:
What I realized, and what we then talked about, was that my feeling was the same as hers when she was playing for her teacher as a child. She'd be intently involved in her music making when the teacher would yell and scare her. In the present case, I was the teacher so I could get annoyed and tell her to quit. But when it happened to her, she was the child and the student. If she'd reacted to her teacher as I reacted to her, she would have been called rude and impudent and this particular teacher would have hit her. I've seen this woman make a mistake and cover her head to ward off the impending blow.

How can people be totally involved in their learning if they are waiting for someone to yell at them or hit them? A part of them must always be watching and waiting for the interruption or attack. I don't yell at my students, young or old.

The final irony of this sad tale is that the woman was her teacher's best student. She was working on Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata at the age of 12. Her teacher had never had such a gifted student. Why did she feel the need to treat her student this way? People do not understand that there are problems being a teacher's best student.


This page is worth reading in its entirety.

the bruises they suffered in their education as children ... interfere

I hope that anyone who still romanticizes abuse as some kind of spice leading to artistry will stop doing so.





Thanks for posting this, keystring. I really enjoyed the article, and I agree that many people romanticize the pain that abuse can cause when they see those that excel in spite of it. I don't think a human being hast to have tremendous pain in their lives to know what pain feels like and how to express it. We are all born with the same spectrum of emotions.


If you are referring to my Beethoven discussion, please choose your words carefully, because I'm doing no such thing..I've answered your similar points in a reply already. Nobody in this thread is advocating or romanticizing any form of abuse. That doesn't mean people can't observe and draw some pretty clear conclusions from the past.


Edited by ghostwind (04/02/11 10:07 PM)

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#1653535 - 04/03/11 06:33 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Morodiene]
weldon29 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 83
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs


In Malaysia is it normal to hit children at home, school?
Ya, especially young children. Thankfully, more and more people are aware that using abusive words and physical punishment is not the best to raise a child. But most of the older generation still have that mindset.
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

Do you think the only method of abuse is hitting? I'm sure he uses words much harsher than that. Be on your guard, and don't let him get away with anything! He doesn't deserve the honor of being a teacher, IMO.
I thought that the verbal abuse was worst than the physical abuse, he was yelling "LAZY!LAZY!LAZY!" as he was hitting the child, and called her stupid because she didn't know how to do her music theory.

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#1653543 - 04/03/11 06:59 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: weldon29
I thought that the verbal abuse was worst than the physical abuse, he was yelling "LAZY!LAZY!LAZY!" as he was hitting the child, and called her stupid because she didn't know how to do her music theory.


Well, if you're stupid I guess it's as well to find out early in life!

Seriously, the modern obsession of giving only positive reinforcement can become silly. The kids see through it anyway.

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#1653560 - 04/03/11 07:50 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
I beat my brats to a pulp ... then they never come back ... "Where have all the flowers gone?"

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#1653580 - 04/03/11 08:40 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5209
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: weldon29
I thought that the verbal abuse was worst than the physical abuse, he was yelling "LAZY!LAZY!LAZY!" as he was hitting the child, and called her stupid because she didn't know how to do her music theory.
Ok, this is getting too much.

I would've interfered... This is too much and can be damaging to a kids personality.

Nobody is seriously talking about pampering kids and only providing positive feedback, this IS silly, but like in every forum actually there are different ways to say what you have in mind: It's quite a different world to go: "You're a moron and your piano playing is bulls***", rather than go: "I think that your playing needs improvement, because [blah blah]. I also believe that you should take comments more gracefully, especially since you've asked for our opinions [blah blah]". wink
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1653705 - 04/03/11 12:30 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi Nikolas ... I like your tack, but would like to add.

I've been around for a hundred years ... so ya
betta listen good!! ... with the passing years, I see it as a straight indictment of the Piano Teacher ability if the student doesn't make progress ... Heaven forbid that a frustrated teacher resorts to fisticuffs.

So often teachers undermine their class with a woeful menu of all the things "not to do" ... why not hit a positive stance ... and teach the exciting small fry "what to do!"

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#1653873 - 04/03/11 05:46 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: btb]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5209
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: btb
So often teachers undermine their class with a woeful menu of all the things "not to do" ... why not hit a positive stance ... and teach the exciting small fry "what to do!"
I do agree with that. But I also do no wish to 'trick' my students into liking me, or feeling they are doing something 'right' when they're not. There isn't a specific 'right' or 'wrong' in music, but certainly when something is obvious it needs to be pointed out...
_________________________
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#1653896 - 04/03/11 06:23 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11549
Loc: Canada
I do agree however with the idea of "what to do" instead of "what not to do", and for practical reasons. Do you know the game, "Don't think of a pink elephant."? You would never think of one, but if you are told not to, that's all you'll think of all day - pink elephants. laugh Similarly, if we are told what not to do, what will we be thinking of and doing? It is much better to try to do something, than to try to not do something. In fact, in order to not do something, we have to aim for what TO do so why not start there?

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#1654002 - 04/03/11 10:43 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
Hmmm... I have known of classroom teachers to get very fired up when the whole class did poorly on an exam. One English teacher broke a yardstick, she smacked a desk so hard (an empty one, luckily), as she complained that she had worked her fingers to the bone to make up the exam questions, and had them duplicated at her own expense. It was kind of touching, actually, and the psychodrama may have awakened some snoozing students.

Then in horticulture school, someone gave a very bad answer on a Soil Science midterm and we heard about it from the prof. The question was: "What is the most common element in the earth's crust?" The student answered: "Carol Doda," who was a topless dancer in San Francisco, one of the first to get silicone breast enlargement. She used to enter the club, dancing on top of a white Baldwin baby grand which was lowered from the ceiling.

However, the correct answer to the test question was, "Silicon," not "Silicone."

Oh well, great moments in pedagogy. I have to say, I've remembered them over the years.

I still say striking or berating a piano student is wrong.
_________________________
Clef


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#1654054 - 04/04/11 02:03 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Canada
I can't say I've read all responses here, so I'm kind of jumping into cold water here! But think that if a piano teacher is feeling the urge to "hit" a student, then it's time to go work at Walmart or something! Take it out on the "carts" rather than kids!

The phrase, "fake it till you make it" comes to mind! There are situations where you picture yourself getting so frustrated that you want to do something you should just "not" do, & that would be hitting a child! Staying away from being tired helps, and of course, I have had students come from abusive situations! Where their former piano teacher hit them then thru music at them, all the while "yelling". Of course there are probably two sides to a story, but if a piano teacher has to resort to "hitting" . . . that teacher isn't very intelligent! And motivation has to be with intelligent words! I think hitting is just a frustrated reaction because that teacher has given up "thinking" a strategy! And I think that piano teacher has lost their desire to teach!

Out-smart the little rascals, I say! Smart words & extreme patients will win every time!
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#1654061 - 04/04/11 02:56 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
No, I can't say I've heard of any music teachers who would do that here. The worst I've known is a piano teacher throwing an eraser at someone. There's not much you can do when something like that is common in your country and the parent condones it. Yelling is still fair game, though. I had one conductor who yelled through almost every rehearsal, but it was tolerable because nobody was being singled out. You sort of tune it out after awhile.

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#1654064 - 04/04/11 03:08 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Frozenicicles]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Yelling is still fair game, though...You sort of tune it out after awhile.
Which makes you wonder why they do it, if they know people are just tuning it out. I'm with Diane - if teachers have to resort to yelling their teaching skills are lacking. Even in the classroom situation (I've been there, I have the grey hairs to prove it) the very best teachers I ever came across did not need to yell.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1654068 - 04/04/11 03:26 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: currawong]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
And on the hitting subject - we'd be up for assault if we did it here. But apart from that, I can't see how it could possibly assist learning. Certainly when I was a child they were still caning students at school, but it wasn't about teaching, it was about crowd control, and I'm not too sure it was all that effective for that, either.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1654094 - 04/04/11 05:00 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Only because I’m 100 (not quite ... but getting there!) ... and remember with affection the mid-teen school years ... and the advantage of a gentle-giant arithmetic teacher (of Afrikaaner stock ... who could have been a farmer) ... who taught the basics of sums with a worldly-wise know-how ... and used corporal punishment to great effect .

But not in the way you chaps might have expected ... those 2 sturdy wops on the rear end with a heavy pair of blackboard compasses (those days before TV and the Internet) was dispensed if some ripe Charlie forgot to do his sums homework ... a better persuader there never was ... we all put arithmetic at the top of the homework list ... and interestingly got top marks in the exams ... there has got be a message somewhere in that bleat.

Thank goodness music is a more gentle art form ... some say!

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#1654145 - 04/04/11 08:19 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: btb]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11405
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: btb
Only because I’m 100 (not quite ... but getting there!) ... and remember with affection the mid-teen school years ... and the advantage of a gentle-giant arithmetic teacher (of Afrikaaner stock ... who could have been a farmer) ... who taught the basics of sums with a worldly-wise know-how ... and used corporal punishment to great effect .

But not in the way you chaps might have expected ... those 2 sturdy wops on the rear end with a heavy pair of blackboard compasses (those days before TV and the Internet) was dispensed if some ripe Charlie forgot to do his sums homework ... a better persuader there never was ... we all put arithmetic at the top of the homework list ... and interestingly got top marks in the exams ... there has got be a message somewhere in that bleat.

Thank goodness music is a more gentle art form ... some say!


Were you ever one to get your rump spanked with the compass? If not, I'd like to hear the perspective of one who did. Everyone is different, and what one person may not see as "abuse" another sees it as terribly abusive. It would not surprise me if there were some in your class who were traumatized by getting hit.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1654241 - 04/04/11 11:13 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Answer ... yes, Morodiene ... but never again!!

After that I dutifully completed my arithmetic homework ... and got top marks.

Nothing quite like a "dissuader" to straighten up the ranks ... today the fairies go home and tell Mum.

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#1654505 - 04/04/11 05:49 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: weldon29
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs


In Malaysia is it normal to hit children at home, school?
Ya, especially young children. Thankfully, more and more people are aware that using abusive words and physical punishment is not the best to raise a child. But most of the older generation still have that mindset.


What do you think about it now Weldon? At the time you chose to do nothing, quite understandably. Do you think there is anything you could or should do? Is it still bothering you?
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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