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#1651332 - 03/30/11 11:03 PM What do you think about hitting young students?
weldon29 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 83
Just now, I just saw teacher hitting(with a pencil and a violin bow)and yelling at a student for not curving the fingers and not practicing(supposedly), and it was awkward as heck for me. I'm wondering what the teachers here think about such behavior?

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#1651340 - 03/30/11 11:40 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Elene Offline
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Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1412
Loc: under monsoon clouds
I think hitting a student is the perfect way to teach them not to take music lessons. I doubt they learn anything else from it.

Abusing children is also a prosecutable offense.

Elene
_________________________
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#1651344 - 03/30/11 11:54 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
kissyana Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/07
Posts: 199
Loc: Northeast Illinois
Wow... I would never hit a student. Nag, correct, even bribe maybe but never hit. As a child, I was extremely sensitive to authority and would easily be reduced to tears if I got in even just a little bit of trouble (like the time I got caught passing a note in class). I can't think of any remotely normal scenarios in which it would be appropriate to strike a student.

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#1651349 - 03/31/11 12:10 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5262
Loc: Europe
WOW! I agree with the above. WT*?!?!?! This is amazing!
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#1651399 - 03/31/11 03:34 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: weldon29
Just now, I just saw teacher hitting(with a pencil and a violin bow)and yelling at a student for not curving the fingers and not practicing(supposedly), and it was awkward as heck for me. I'm wondering what the teachers here think about such behavior?


I'm surprised you even need to ask.

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#1651406 - 03/31/11 03:44 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5262
Loc: Europe
I just need to further my post and say that you NEED to speak about this to the head of the department or something... This is obnoxious and ABSOLUTELY no action requires such reaction!
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#1651435 - 03/31/11 05:38 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Nikolas]
weldon29 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 83
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I just need to further my post and say that you NEED to speak about this to the head of the department or something... This is obnoxious and ABSOLUTELY no action requires such reaction!
It's not a center or anything, so there's no one to report it to. The mother of the child is actually was actually sitting near her child and was knew that her child was being hit by the teacher, it seems like she doesn't mind that her child was getting "punished".

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#1651436 - 03/31/11 05:42 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Meilen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 48
Loc: Switzerland
My first piano teacher did this to me ( a nun who seemed about a hundred years old at the time and probably was). I was terrified of her and it's a miracle I ever continued. I only recently told my mother this and she was horrified.

I would also say that you should report this, if there is someone to report it to. This kind of behaviour goes against everything that learning should be about.
_________________________
Teaching piano in English in Switzerland!

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#1651438 - 03/31/11 05:53 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1197
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: weldon29
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I just need to further my post and say that you NEED to speak about this to the head of the department or something... This is obnoxious and ABSOLUTELY no action requires such reaction!
It's not a center or anything, so there's no one to report it to. The mother of the child is actually was actually sitting near her child and was knew that her child was being hit by the teacher, it seems like she doesn't mind that her child was getting "punished".


OK. The mother was there. Unless you want to enter the morass of getting her classed as an "unfit parent" and having the child taken into care (and don't think that making trouble might not escalate that far) this is definitely NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Anyway, as we've proved so often here, things overheard are often things misconstrued.

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#1651495 - 03/31/11 08:09 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Lollipop Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 820
Loc: Georgia
I'm thinking if you need to ask, perhaps it isn't as bad as what the word "hitting" sounds like.

Sometimes I touch the back of a student's fingers as she is playing to remind her to round them, as it seems less interrupting than speaking. If I have a pencil in my hand, I can imagine that it would be easy to touch them with the pencil (I don't think I've ever done that, but it's certainly something that could happen.) This is not hitting.

Is this hitting in the form that the student draws back, and says 'ow'? Does it make the finger red, or sting or hurt in any way?

I would be really careful about making accusations. Two objects coming in contact do not necessarily imply pain.

If it is causing pain or is in any way violent, of course it is wrong.
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piano teacher

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#1651498 - 03/31/11 08:18 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
PianoMath Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 94
I have a student that i always need to hit. I think that there's no problem with it.

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#1651499 - 03/31/11 08:18 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
PianoMath Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 94
It's my girlfriend, btw. I love to hit her wink

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#1651566 - 03/31/11 10:12 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Morodiene Online   content
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Wow, just.....wow. First you need to define "hitting" a bit more clearly. I know I've tapped a student's hand with my own or possibly with a pencil if I had it in hand. But it NEVER was painful at all for the student, either emotionally or physically.

If in fact, it was something that caused the student emotional and/or physical pain, I think that you may want to approach the mother and suggest that this is not normal practice for a piano teacher. Perhaps she thinks it is good. It will be up to her, but you should definitely make sure you steer clear of that teacher.
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#1651621 - 03/31/11 11:16 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Morodiene]
weldon29 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 83
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat


OK. The mother was there. Unless you want to enter the morass of getting her classed as an "unfit parent" and having the child taken into care (and don't think that making trouble might not escalate that far) this is definitely NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Anyway, as we've proved so often here, things overheard are often things misconstrued.
I don't plan on doing anything about it, and I made this thread to ask what people think about using this kind of ways to teach students, not what I should do about the incident I describe.
Originally Posted By: Lollipop

Is this hitting in the form that the student draws back, and says 'ow'? Does it make the finger red, or sting or hurt in any way?

The child was crying.
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Wow, just.....wow. First you need to define "hitting" a bit more clearly. I know I've tapped a student's hand with my own or possibly with a pencil if I had it in hand. But it NEVER was painful at all for the student, either emotionally or physically.
It was pretty obvious from my view that the teacher was hitting to cause physical pain. And I don't think me doing anything would be of any help, as hitting and screaming is a acceptable way to teach young children here unfortunately.

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#1651629 - 03/31/11 11:23 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: weldon29

The child was crying.

It was pretty obvious from my view that the teacher was hitting to cause physical pain. And I don't think me doing anything would be of any help, as hitting and screaming is a acceptable way to teach young children here unfortunately.


Yikes, something is seriously wrong there... shocked

I wouldn't even think of employing such a technique - gentle or otherwise.

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#1651637 - 03/31/11 11:39 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: weldon29
Just now, I just saw teacher hitting(with a pencil and a violin bow)and yelling at a student for not curving the fingers and not practicing(supposedly), and it was awkward as heck for me. I'm wondering what the teachers here think about such behavior?

I don't find it necessary to hit anyone, except in self-defense. And while much which passes for modern education theory is psycho-babble, a physical approach to attention getting probably solves very few problems. To be fair, when my children were very young (pre-school), it was occasionally necessary to get their attention and sometimes words wouldn't do the trick.

As for this specific case, hearing one side of the story only makes evaluation difficult at best.
_________________________
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#1651748 - 03/31/11 02:23 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Seems like a child protection issue to me. I know in my country, I would contact social services. The fact that the mother was there makes no difference.

The reason is that protecting children is *everyone's* responsibility. Children are rarely able to get help for themselves. Maybe all is OK at home. Maybe it isn't.
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#1651753 - 03/31/11 02:28 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5262
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
To be fair, when my children were very young (pre-school), it was occasionally necessary to get their attention and sometimes words wouldn't do the trick.
I've also done that once with my older son. The first time he was continuously playing with the gas oven, back in London. This is NOT something you toy with! Another time he was playing with the hot iron, while my wife was using it. I didn't do anything to him and he got burned so that stopped him.

Hitting someone to cause pain, basically means that this is a punishment. If people think that such punishments can be used for educational purposes... I don't know what to say. But I'd like to know where in the world this is taken as the norm, please!
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#1651771 - 03/31/11 02:42 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11926
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Yes, in the US, any kind of physical abuse is not allowed. Nor do I think it is really warranted. The child was crying! That poor thing...he probably trusted his teacher *and* his mother, and here they are the ones abusing him (his mother by her silent assent). Now, tears happen when a student doesn't practice or feels bad about their lack of progress...those are all things they have self-imposed and can correct. But it is due to someone causing them physical pain, I do not see the value. Obviously, their life or welfare was not threatened as in Nikolas's examples.
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MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
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#1651790 - 03/31/11 03:02 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Nikolas]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1197
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
If people think that such punishments can be used for educational purposes... I don't know what to say. But I'd like to know where in the world this is taken as the norm, please!


Oh, just about everywhere until we got all namby-pamby a relatively short while ago! And since we gave up on physical discipline, the world has become a much better place, right?

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#1651811 - 03/31/11 03:22 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Exalted Wombat]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11679
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
And since we gave up on physical discipline, the world has become a much better place, right?

Yes, it probably has. Good question.

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#1651832 - 03/31/11 03:48 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Nikolas]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I hate to show my age, but corporal punishment was well and widely accepted even in the USA until the mid-50s. Then it's use went into a steep decline.

FWIW, most of us boys would get into mischief if we could, and we certainly wanted to, but the consequences, which was meted out to the sucker among us, was enough to keep the rest of us in line.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1651852 - 03/31/11 04:13 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Overexposed Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
If the teacher intended to cause pain, then he chose the wrong weapons. Much better use from a ruler or an open hand. But a pencil? And a violin bow? Surely the teacher has no intention of damaging his bow.

Sounds like an unpleasant situation. My guess is that I would not have been thinking child abuse. But the teacher obviously lacks skill in working with kids.

Why were you observing this child's lesson?

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#1651875 - 03/31/11 04:43 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: keystring]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11926
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
And since we gave up on physical discipline, the world has become a much better place, right?

Yes, it probably has. Good question.


Aren't we talking about hitting a student during a piano lesson? And not a parent disciplining their child?
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#1651893 - 03/31/11 05:06 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1265
Loc: California
Two completely separate issues here:

1. Disciplining your children -

Corporal punishment was still in place when I went to school in the 70's. My husband can vouch for the 'pops' he used to get in the principal's office a few times a year.

I got spanked as a child; we spanked our own kids when they needed it. They're in their 20's now and have had actually thanked us for the occasionally wallop they incurred as children.


2. Hitting a piano student -

Completely unacceptable. But I'm wondering if there's a 'cultural' aspect to this. I've talked to teacher-friends who say that in their homeland (Asian or Russian), they were routinely smacked on the hand and yelled at during their lesson.
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#1651905 - 03/31/11 05:24 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5262
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Oh, just about everywhere until we got all namby-pamby a relatively short while ago! And since we gave up on physical discipline, the world has become a much better place, right?
I simply don't believe that fear is the right method of teaching anything. It is fundamental for our well being, but not for educational purposes... Simply put you want the student to study the violin because they know it needs to be done in order to reach the desired result, because the student wants to keep parents and teacher happy, because the student is enjoying the violin performance. Worst reasons to do something is because of fear of punishment.

BTW, If you want to enter that discussion here's an analogy: I won't put any names, but over the past 30 years several countries have decided to discipline a remote country for whatever reason (right or wrong, I'm not examining that part). The resulted discipline is named "war" and has never ever brought the expected results. Discipline never came in any of the cases I can remember.

Perhaps I'm magnifying things to the extreme and going off topic, but my point is that if such magnitude situations can't work as required, are we certain that smaller scale ones work as intended?
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#1651928 - 03/31/11 05:57 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
Striking someone else's child is over-the-top. Since the OP is only asking what I (we) think, I think it is a very poor pedagogical technique.

The mother should have put a stop to it then and there. If it had happened in my presence, I think I would have had a word with one or both of them. The third party is tacitly endorsing it, otherwise. But, it's understandable that it may be hard to know the best thing to say in the moment. "No more," comes to mind right away, even if you can't come up with anything else immediately.
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#1651933 - 03/31/11 06:07 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Stanny Offline
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Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 1461
I figured the OP was a troll posting a crazy thing to get everyone riled up ;-)
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#1651960 - 03/31/11 06:53 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Stanny]
kck Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 268
Originally Posted By: Stanny
I figured the OP was a troll posting a crazy thing to get everyone riled up ;-)


thumb That's what I thought too.
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#1651972 - 03/31/11 07:15 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: kck]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1197
Loc: London UK
Yeah. This forum can get so nauseatingly fluffy, supportive and just damn CARING sometimes that I picture a grizzled old pianist with a beer belly, working in a cat house, posting just to take the p***.

Oh no, hold on. That's me. Except I got fired from the cat house.

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#1652000 - 03/31/11 08:09 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Stanny]
weldon29 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 83
Originally Posted By: Stanny
I figured the OP was a troll posting a crazy thing to get everyone riled up ;-)
No... And to the question asked, it happened in Malaysia.

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#1652086 - 03/31/11 10:48 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
ghostwind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
Loc: USA
If Beethoven was not beaten by his father, would he have produced the same works? I'm not advocating abuse of course, just was wondering while reading this. Different scenario. But yes, in Eastern Europe, striking the student is common practice. No fuss.

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#1652099 - 03/31/11 11:06 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: ghostwind]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
If Beethoven was not beaten by his father, would he have produced the same works?


Probably not, but there may have been many more Beethovens lost to the world due to crippling low self-esteem brought about by regular beatings. Also, it would be a dubious argument to claim that as long as we got some creative genius out of it, it's acceptable to use abuse - especially since it most likely won't produce any genius at all.

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#1652125 - 04/01/11 12:04 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: ando]
ghostwind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
If Beethoven was not beaten by his father, would he have produced the same works?


Probably not, but there may have been many more Beethovens lost to the world due to crippling low self-esteem brought about by regular beatings. Also, it would be a dubious argument to claim that as long as we got some creative genius out of it, it's acceptable to use abuse - especially since it most likely won't produce any genius at all.


I said I was of course not advocating it...But, I'm not sure a genius like a Beethoven would lay down. So while of course I'm sure abusive parents only harm their kids, I think a real genius like Beethoven overcomes even the harshest of odds.

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#1652162 - 04/01/11 01:59 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: ghostwind]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
If Beethoven was not beaten by his father, would he have produced the same works?


Probably not, but there may have been many more Beethovens lost to the world due to crippling low self-esteem brought about by regular beatings. Also, it would be a dubious argument to claim that as long as we got some creative genius out of it, it's acceptable to use abuse - especially since it most likely won't produce any genius at all.


I said I was of course not advocating it...But, I'm not sure a genius like a Beethoven would lay down. So while of course I'm sure abusive parents only harm their kids, I think a real genius like Beethoven overcomes even the harshest of odds.


Yes, I didn't mean to imply that you advocated violence! I think that there are many cases of people developing extraordinary skills in the face of bad situations. There will always be bad situations though. The creative world is certainly riddled with very damaged souls. It may well be one of the biggest sparks of creativity. Certain things need to be right as well though - otherwise they wouldn't have the motivation to do anything.

Anyway, not disagreeing with anything you have said, just thinking out loud.

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#1652256 - 04/01/11 05:44 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: ando]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1197
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
If Beethoven was not beaten by his father, would he have produced the same works?


Probably not, but there may have been many more Beethovens lost to the world due to crippling low self-esteem brought about by regular beatings. Also, it would be a dubious argument to claim that as long as we got some creative genius out of it, it's acceptable to use abuse - especially since it most likely won't produce any genius at all.


There are some very dubious assumptions there. Childhood experience is regularly given as an excuse for low self-esteem (not that self-esteem becomes an issue until something occurs that requires THAT as an excuse). But there isn't necessarily a correlation.

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#1652258 - 04/01/11 05:47 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: ghostwind]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1197
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
But, I'm not sure a genius like a Beethoven would lay down. So while of course I'm sure abusive parents only harm their kids, I think a real genius like Beethoven overcomes even the harshest of odds.


Does creative genius necessarily imply a strong personality? Some geniuses mat be sociable, others may appear autistic! (Observers often confuse the ability to concentrate with a social disorder:-)

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#1652284 - 04/01/11 07:28 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Exalted Wombat]
ghostwind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
But, I'm not sure a genius like a Beethoven would lay down. So while of course I'm sure abusive parents only harm their kids, I think a real genius like Beethoven overcomes even the harshest of odds.


Does creative genius necessarily imply a strong personality? Some geniuses mat be sociable, others may appear autistic! (Observers often confuse the ability to concentrate with a social disorder:-)


To me, a real genius, social or introvert, etc., will see to it that he does what he or she needs to. Against all odds. Especially in the arts. I don't believe in "hidden geniuses" in other words. To me, they are not geniuses - a words that gets thrown around too often IMO.

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#1652289 - 04/01/11 07:43 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
SWISSHAT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 43
If this is already repeated, I say sorry.
To the one who suggests it is ok to hit a student, I would then say it is also ok for the student to hit the teacher when the teacher make an error.
We are all humans and can make mistakes.

If hitting (physically) is all right for this teacher, he/she should stay away from any children or student.
Music learning is a nice way to live. To hit is to punish. Music is not about punishment.
That is my personal view.

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#1652290 - 04/01/11 07:44 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: ghostwind]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: ghostwind

To me, a real genius, social or introvert, etc., will see to it that he does what he or she needs to. Against all odds. Especially in the arts. I don't believe in "hidden geniuses" in other words. To me, they are not geniuses - a words that gets thrown around too often IMO.


You have no experience of frustrated geniuses because they aren't productive! How WOULD you have heard of them?

Genius can be very hard to distinguish from craft and application.

Not a subject where fixed opinions are very useful, I think.

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#1652293 - 04/01/11 07:45 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: ghostwind]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ghostwind
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
If Beethoven was not beaten by his father, would he have produced the same works?


Probably not, but there may have been many more Beethovens lost to the world due to crippling low self-esteem brought about by regular beatings. Also, it would be a dubious argument to claim that as long as we got some creative genius out of it, it's acceptable to use abuse - especially since it most likely won't produce any genius at all.


I said I was of course not advocating it...But, I'm not sure a genius like a Beethoven would lay down. So while of course I'm sure abusive parents only harm their kids, I think a real genius like Beethoven overcomes even the harshest of odds.


I don't think Beethoven created his great works because of the abuse, but in spite of. I think he would have composed regardless, it was in him to compose. However, he may have been a much happier human being without the abuse. Who knows? Maybe he would have married and had children of his own to pass on his genes?
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#1652302 - 04/01/11 07:58 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: kck]
Overexposed Offline
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Posts: 2647
Originally Posted By: kck
Originally Posted By: Stanny
I figured the OP was a troll posting a crazy thing to get everyone riled up ;-)


thumb That's what I thought too.


I did too. That's why I asked why the OP was observing this students lesson. It sounded like a made-up situation. He's said the lesson was not in a school. Yet there he is observing this behavior. Yeah right.

So the OP happens to walk by the piano teacher's house, peer into the studio and see all this.


Edited by Ann in Kentucky (04/01/11 08:06 AM)

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#1652303 - 04/01/11 07:59 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Exalted Wombat]
ghostwind Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: ghostwind

To me, a real genius, social or introvert, etc., will see to it that he does what he or she needs to. Against all odds. Especially in the arts. I don't believe in "hidden geniuses" in other words. To me, they are not geniuses - a words that gets thrown around too often IMO.


You have no experience of frustrated geniuses because they aren't productive! How WOULD you have heard of them?

Genius can be very hard to distinguish from craft and application.

Not a subject where fixed opinions are very useful, I think.


It's my own opinion. As I said, I don't believe in "hidden geniuses". IMO a true genius rises above all. The burden of proof lies on you, not me smile

PS Most geniuses can be frustrated. This has nothing to do with it.


Edited by ghostwind (04/01/11 07:59 AM)

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#1652313 - 04/01/11 08:18 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: ghostwind]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted By: ghostwind

It's my own opinion. As I said, I don't believe in "hidden geniuses". IMO a true genius rises above all. The burden of proof lies on you, not me smile

PS Most geniuses can be frustrated. This has nothing to do with it.


OK, so your definition of "Genius" is "Fufilled Genius".

"Proof"? Hardly a useful concept here I think.

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#1652518 - 04/01/11 12:38 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Morodiene]
ghostwind Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
If Beethoven was not beaten by his father, would he have produced the same works?


Probably not, but there may have been many more Beethovens lost to the world due to crippling low self-esteem brought about by regular beatings. Also, it would be a dubious argument to claim that as long as we got some creative genius out of it, it's acceptable to use abuse - especially since it most likely won't produce any genius at all.


I said I was of course not advocating it...But, I'm not sure a genius like a Beethoven would lay down. So while of course I'm sure abusive parents only harm their kids, I think a real genius like Beethoven overcomes even the harshest of odds.


I don't think Beethoven created his great works because of the abuse, but in spite of. I think he would have composed regardless, it was in him to compose. However, he may have been a much happier human being without the abuse. Who knows? Maybe he would have married and had children of his own to pass on his genes?


You're correct, but we would not have the stormy, angry, agitated, passionate music that he created! We don't know what we would have, but most probably not that.

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#1652519 - 04/01/11 12:39 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Exalted Wombat]
ghostwind Offline
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Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: ghostwind

It's my own opinion. As I said, I don't believe in "hidden geniuses". IMO a true genius rises above all. The burden of proof lies on you, not me smile

PS Most geniuses can be frustrated. This has nothing to do with it.


OK, so your definition of "Genius" is "Fufilled Genius".

"Proof"? Hardly a useful concept here I think.


Correct, I don't know of any "unfulfilled" geniuses, unless you are going by academic tests or IQs, which do not define a genius to me. To me a genius is someone that has fulfilled and contributed in some way.

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#1652582 - 04/01/11 02:13 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Overexposed Offline
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Here's my two cents:

It does seem that successful writers/artists have OFTEN had a huge childhood trauma such as the death of a parent. But we're not in charge of what childhood traumas we have to endure.

What would you do? Create a disaster in order to give people the opportunity to pull together as a community? Cause a child to suffer in childhood in hopes that in coping with it he will express himself through art and uplift humanity in the process?

Tolkien used the word "eutastrophy" to describe the good that comes out of a disaster.

Maybe Beethoven would have done less composing if he'd had a girlfriend. So his destiny was not for Elise to say yes.


Edited by Ann in Kentucky (04/01/11 03:36 PM)
Edit Reason: added info & spelling

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#1652606 - 04/01/11 02:56 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Overexposed]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
It does seem that successful writers/artists have had a huge childhood trauma such as the death of a parent. But we're not in charge of what childhood traumas we have to endure.


"All geniuses are broken". An interesting theory.

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#1652615 - 04/01/11 03:19 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: ghostwind]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ghostwind
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
If Beethoven was not beaten by his father, would he have produced the same works?


Probably not, but there may have been many more Beethovens lost to the world due to crippling low self-esteem brought about by regular beatings. Also, it would be a dubious argument to claim that as long as we got some creative genius out of it, it's acceptable to use abuse - especially since it most likely won't produce any genius at all.


I said I was of course not advocating it...But, I'm not sure a genius like a Beethoven would lay down. So while of course I'm sure abusive parents only harm their kids, I think a real genius like Beethoven overcomes even the harshest of odds.


I don't think Beethoven created his great works because of the abuse, but in spite of. I think he would have composed regardless, it was in him to compose. However, he may have been a much happier human being without the abuse. Who knows? Maybe he would have married and had children of his own to pass on his genes?


You're correct, but we would not have the stormy, angry, agitated, passionate music that he created! We don't know what we would have, but most probably not that.


You really can't say that with any measure of assurance. Why is it that people feel you must have an awful life to be a creative "genius"? What about those great artists who had relatively normal lives? One does not have to be a tortured individual to be artistic?
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#1652619 - 04/01/11 03:31 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Overexposed Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
It does seem that successful writers/artists have had a huge childhood trauma such as the death of a parent. But we're not in charge of what childhood traumas we have to endure.


"All geniuses are broken". An interesting theory.


Oops my observation was misunderstood. I didn't mean "all" and I didn't say "geniuses" and I didn't say "broken". (Your words are 'genius' and 'broken', not mine.) Just because someone has endured trauma doesn't mean they are broken...it means they've had a life experience that most of us have not.

Don't try to make what I said into a "theory". All I've made is an observation. Feel free to ignore it if it sticks in your craw.


Edited by Ann in Kentucky (04/01/11 04:12 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#1652626 - 04/01/11 03:55 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Overexposed Offline
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I'd say that enduring trauma at a young age causes a child/young adult to have a deeper experience of certain feelings...deeper than someone lacking the experience. A deeper experience of grief, a real sense of how it feels to be shocked, a real understanding of how someone feels when they lose a parent (if they lost a parent) etc.

This experience along with the response to the experience CAN affect a person's desire/ability/need for art.

But yeah, I don't believe the stereotype of the tortured artist. It doesn't describe the typical artist.

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#1652635 - 04/01/11 04:11 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Overexposed]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
I'd say that enduring trauma at a young age causes a child/young adult to have a deeper experience of certain feelings...deeper than someone lacking the experience.

Something to think about:
It can also cause someone to shut down, unable to feel or express emotion, and stifle any creative urge. There are also people who were taught abusively, being hit and yelled at, who may have a fair bit of piano skills but can't get themselves to go near a piano. To even play with these ideas - no words.

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#1652637 - 04/01/11 04:16 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: keystring]
Overexposed Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
I'd say that enduring trauma at a young age causes a child/young adult to have a deeper experience of certain feelings...deeper than someone lacking the experience.

Something to think about:
It can also cause someone to shut down, unable to feel or express emotion, and stifle any creative urge. There are also people who were taught abusively, being hit and yelled at, who may have a fair bit of piano skills but can't get themselves to go near a piano. To even play with these ideas - no words.


Yes, having emotional problems/issues to deal with is likely a more common response than taking the experience and making great art in response.

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#1652695 - 04/01/11 05:41 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Morodiene]
ghostwind Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: ghostwind
If Beethoven was not beaten by his father, would he have produced the same works?


Probably not, but there may have been many more Beethovens lost to the world due to crippling low self-esteem brought about by regular beatings. Also, it would be a dubious argument to claim that as long as we got some creative genius out of it, it's acceptable to use abuse - especially since it most likely won't produce any genius at all.


I said I was of course not advocating it...But, I'm not sure a genius like a Beethoven would lay down. So while of course I'm sure abusive parents only harm their kids, I think a real genius like Beethoven overcomes even the harshest of odds.


I don't think Beethoven created his great works because of the abuse, but in spite of. I think he would have composed regardless, it was in him to compose. However, he may have been a much happier human being without the abuse. Who knows? Maybe he would have married and had children of his own to pass on his genes?


You're correct, but we would not have the stormy, angry, agitated, passionate music that he created! We don't know what we would have, but most probably not that.


You really can't say that with any measure of assurance. Why is it that people feel you must have an awful life to be a creative "genius"? What about those great artists who had relatively normal lives? One does not have to be a tortured individual to be artistic?


I absolutely mean it, and believe it! I didn't say they have to have an awful life to be creative geniuses, I just said that Beethoven's music is a reflection of Beethoven the man - abuse and all. How can it be otherwise? Music is a reflection of oneself and of course his tragedy affected his music - one of his many tragedies. Had his life been a rosy one, his music would for sure have been different. Perhaps just as good, but different for sure. But yeah, when you look at most geniuses, they all have a screw loose for sure! They are wired differently. When it comes to artists, there often IS tragedy too.

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#1652972 - 04/02/11 07:03 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Overexposed]
weldon29 Offline
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Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 83
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Originally Posted By: kck
Originally Posted By: Stanny
I figured the OP was a troll posting a crazy thing to get everyone riled up ;-)


thumb That's what I thought too.


I did too. That's why I asked why the OP was observing this students lesson. It sounded like a made-up situation. He's said the lesson was not in a school. Yet there he is observing this behavior. Yeah right.

So the OP happens to walk by the piano teacher's house, peer into the studio and see all this.
The teacher was my vocal teacher(first lesson) and I was there early so I was able to witness the event. I didn't mentioned it because it was something I did not wish to mention. And what reason have I have to make up the situation anyway?

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#1652995 - 04/02/11 08:31 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Overexposed Offline
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Thanks for the additional information. Now it makes sense. Sorry to have posted my doubts about this. (Although I do think non-teachers at times out of boredom, make up things and post controversial ideas to get people riled up.)

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#1653025 - 04/02/11 09:43 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: weldon29
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Originally Posted By: kck
Originally Posted By: Stanny
I figured the OP was a troll posting a crazy thing to get everyone riled up ;-)


thumb That's what I thought too.


I did too. That's why I asked why the OP was observing this students lesson. It sounded like a made-up situation. He's said the lesson was not in a school. Yet there he is observing this behavior. Yeah right.

So the OP happens to walk by the piano teacher's house, peer into the studio and see all this.
The teacher was my vocal teacher(first lesson) and I was there early so I was able to witness the event. I didn't mentioned it because it was something I did not wish to mention. And what reason have I have to make up the situation anyway?


If you have observed the teacher teaching in the fashion, don't you expect similar methods to be employed on yourself? I see no good reason to treat a student in this way, and I advise you look for another teacher ASAP.
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#1653054 - 04/02/11 10:51 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
keystring Online   content
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Some excerpts from Musicalfossils, where teacher Matte Harre talks about people who have had abusive teachers and are trying to resume lessons many years later with the aftereffects:

Quote:
It takes time for adults to realize they are safe in the studio. What happens to these students while they are finding out just how safe, is that they are guarded and afraid. When they're afraid they quit breathing normally, they leave their bodies and go into their heads; and to control their feelings, they start thinking frantically. They try too hard.

When I get like this, I start making stupid mistakes that only make things worse. Instructions become incomprehensible. I don't know my left hand from my right. I don't like myself and I want to run away. It's no different with other students.


It doesn't appear to me that the behavior of the childhood teacher has done much to improve that student's musicianship. It's created roadblocks.

Here is another, where a *gifted* adult student has berated herself in the manner that her childhood teacher has done, and they get to the bottom of it:

Quote:
What I realized, and what we then talked about, was that my feeling was the same as hers when she was playing for her teacher as a child. She'd be intently involved in her music making when the teacher would yell and scare her. In the present case, I was the teacher so I could get annoyed and tell her to quit. But when it happened to her, she was the child and the student. If she'd reacted to her teacher as I reacted to her, she would have been called rude and impudent and this particular teacher would have hit her. I've seen this woman make a mistake and cover her head to ward off the impending blow.

How can people be totally involved in their learning if they are waiting for someone to yell at them or hit them? A part of them must always be watching and waiting for the interruption or attack. I don't yell at my students, young or old.

The final irony of this sad tale is that the woman was her teacher's best student. She was working on Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata at the age of 12. Her teacher had never had such a gifted student. Why did she feel the need to treat her student this way? People do not understand that there are problems being a teacher's best student.


This page is worth reading in its entirety.

the bruises they suffered in their education as children ... interfere

I hope that anyone who still romanticizes abuse as some kind of spice leading to artistry will stop doing so.

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#1653061 - 04/02/11 11:01 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Overexposed]
Andromaque Offline
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Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Thanks for the additional information. Now it makes sense. Sorry to have posted my doubts about this. (Although I do think non-teachers at times out of boredom, make up things and post controversial ideas to get people riled up.)


I don't think you should be sorry for expressing your doubts. You were honest.
I would add thought that "teachers" are just as likely to fib about their situation or their teacher identity for that matter.

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#1653084 - 04/02/11 11:46 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Morodiene]
weldon29 Offline
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Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 83
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

If you have observed the teacher teaching in the fashion, don't you expect similar methods to be employed on yourself? I see no good reason to treat a student in this way, and I advise you look for another teacher ASAP.
I actually considered walking out after a while, but as the teacher is quite a well known vocalist here, I decided to stay and see if I can get anything out of learning from him. He's an egoistic douchebag, but it seems that if I learn from him I might be able to get better results than with other vocal couch.( he didn't use the same method of teaching the child for me)

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#1653095 - 04/02/11 12:09 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
R0B Offline
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Posts: 1439
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As a child, I had the occasional rap over the knuckles with a ruler, from my piano teacher. It surely concentrates the mind, and I still have nothing but the greatest respect for that teacher.
My music teacher at school, would from time time, smash a wax 78 record over the head, when a pupil's concentration lapsed.
Unacceptable in today's politically correct climate, but damned effective at the time.
_________________________
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#1653294 - 04/02/11 07:15 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: weldon29
He's an egoistic douchebag,


I had a few music teachers like that. There does seem to be a bit of a pattern. Perhaps people who can't work with others gravitate toward the profession? Present company excepted, of course.

In Malaysia is it normal to hit children at home, school? If so, then this behaviour may seem totally normal to everyone concerned, including the child. As I said earlier, where I come from this would be considered abuse, and I would contact social services.

Perhaps you can learn a lot from this teacher. What they consider to be normal teaching methods will probably continue whether you are there or not - it's just a question of what you see.
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#1653305 - 04/02/11 07:47 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: weldon29
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

If you have observed the teacher teaching in the fashion, don't you expect similar methods to be employed on yourself? I see no good reason to treat a student in this way, and I advise you look for another teacher ASAP.
I actually considered walking out after a while, but as the teacher is quite a well known vocalist here, I decided to stay and see if I can get anything out of learning from him. He's an egoistic douchebag, but it seems that if I learn from him I might be able to get better results than with other vocal couch.( he didn't use the same method of teaching the child for me)


Do you think the only method of abuse is hitting? I'm sure he uses words much harsher than that. Be on your guard, and don't let him get away with anything! He doesn't deserve the honor of being a teacher, IMO.
_________________________
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#1653307 - 04/02/11 07:49 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: keystring]
Morodiene Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11926
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: keystring
Some excerpts from Musicalfossils, where teacher Matte Harre talks about people who have had abusive teachers and are trying to resume lessons many years later with the aftereffects:

Quote:
It takes time for adults to realize they are safe in the studio. What happens to these students while they are finding out just how safe, is that they are guarded and afraid. When they're afraid they quit breathing normally, they leave their bodies and go into their heads; and to control their feelings, they start thinking frantically. They try too hard.

When I get like this, I start making stupid mistakes that only make things worse. Instructions become incomprehensible. I don't know my left hand from my right. I don't like myself and I want to run away. It's no different with other students.


It doesn't appear to me that the behavior of the childhood teacher has done much to improve that student's musicianship. It's created roadblocks.

Here is another, where a *gifted* adult student has berated herself in the manner that her childhood teacher has done, and they get to the bottom of it:

Quote:
What I realized, and what we then talked about, was that my feeling was the same as hers when she was playing for her teacher as a child. She'd be intently involved in her music making when the teacher would yell and scare her. In the present case, I was the teacher so I could get annoyed and tell her to quit. But when it happened to her, she was the child and the student. If she'd reacted to her teacher as I reacted to her, she would have been called rude and impudent and this particular teacher would have hit her. I've seen this woman make a mistake and cover her head to ward off the impending blow.

How can people be totally involved in their learning if they are waiting for someone to yell at them or hit them? A part of them must always be watching and waiting for the interruption or attack. I don't yell at my students, young or old.

The final irony of this sad tale is that the woman was her teacher's best student. She was working on Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata at the age of 12. Her teacher had never had such a gifted student. Why did she feel the need to treat her student this way? People do not understand that there are problems being a teacher's best student.


This page is worth reading in its entirety.

the bruises they suffered in their education as children ... interfere

I hope that anyone who still romanticizes abuse as some kind of spice leading to artistry will stop doing so.





Thanks for posting this, keystring. I really enjoyed the article, and I agree that many people romanticize the pain that abuse can cause when they see those that excel in spite of it. I don't think a human being hast to have tremendous pain in their lives to know what pain feels like and how to express it. We are all born with the same spectrum of emotions.
_________________________
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www.valeoconservatory.com
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#1653358 - 04/02/11 10:03 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: keystring]
ghostwind Offline
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Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: keystring

I hope that anyone who still romanticizes abuse as some kind of spice leading to artistry will stop doing so.


Who's romanticizing abuse in the manner you describe? A silly notion or accusation if you are referring to any poster in this thread.

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#1653359 - 04/02/11 10:06 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Morodiene]
ghostwind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 48
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: keystring
Some excerpts from Musicalfossils, where teacher Matte Harre talks about people who have had abusive teachers and are trying to resume lessons many years later with the aftereffects:

Quote:
It takes time for adults to realize they are safe in the studio. What happens to these students while they are finding out just how safe, is that they are guarded and afraid. When they're afraid they quit breathing normally, they leave their bodies and go into their heads; and to control their feelings, they start thinking frantically. They try too hard.

When I get like this, I start making stupid mistakes that only make things worse. Instructions become incomprehensible. I don't know my left hand from my right. I don't like myself and I want to run away. It's no different with other students.


It doesn't appear to me that the behavior of the childhood teacher has done much to improve that student's musicianship. It's created roadblocks.

Here is another, where a *gifted* adult student has berated herself in the manner that her childhood teacher has done, and they get to the bottom of it:

Quote:
What I realized, and what we then talked about, was that my feeling was the same as hers when she was playing for her teacher as a child. She'd be intently involved in her music making when the teacher would yell and scare her. In the present case, I was the teacher so I could get annoyed and tell her to quit. But when it happened to her, she was the child and the student. If she'd reacted to her teacher as I reacted to her, she would have been called rude and impudent and this particular teacher would have hit her. I've seen this woman make a mistake and cover her head to ward off the impending blow.

How can people be totally involved in their learning if they are waiting for someone to yell at them or hit them? A part of them must always be watching and waiting for the interruption or attack. I don't yell at my students, young or old.

The final irony of this sad tale is that the woman was her teacher's best student. She was working on Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata at the age of 12. Her teacher had never had such a gifted student. Why did she feel the need to treat her student this way? People do not understand that there are problems being a teacher's best student.


This page is worth reading in its entirety.

the bruises they suffered in their education as children ... interfere

I hope that anyone who still romanticizes abuse as some kind of spice leading to artistry will stop doing so.





Thanks for posting this, keystring. I really enjoyed the article, and I agree that many people romanticize the pain that abuse can cause when they see those that excel in spite of it. I don't think a human being hast to have tremendous pain in their lives to know what pain feels like and how to express it. We are all born with the same spectrum of emotions.


If you are referring to my Beethoven discussion, please choose your words carefully, because I'm doing no such thing..I've answered your similar points in a reply already. Nobody in this thread is advocating or romanticizing any form of abuse. That doesn't mean people can't observe and draw some pretty clear conclusions from the past.


Edited by ghostwind (04/02/11 10:07 PM)

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#1653535 - 04/03/11 06:33 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Morodiene]
weldon29 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 83
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs


In Malaysia is it normal to hit children at home, school?
Ya, especially young children. Thankfully, more and more people are aware that using abusive words and physical punishment is not the best to raise a child. But most of the older generation still have that mindset.
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

Do you think the only method of abuse is hitting? I'm sure he uses words much harsher than that. Be on your guard, and don't let him get away with anything! He doesn't deserve the honor of being a teacher, IMO.
I thought that the verbal abuse was worst than the physical abuse, he was yelling "LAZY!LAZY!LAZY!" as he was hitting the child, and called her stupid because she didn't know how to do her music theory.

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#1653543 - 04/03/11 06:59 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1197
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: weldon29
I thought that the verbal abuse was worst than the physical abuse, he was yelling "LAZY!LAZY!LAZY!" as he was hitting the child, and called her stupid because she didn't know how to do her music theory.


Well, if you're stupid I guess it's as well to find out early in life!

Seriously, the modern obsession of giving only positive reinforcement can become silly. The kids see through it anyway.

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#1653560 - 04/03/11 07:50 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
I beat my brats to a pulp ... then they never come back ... "Where have all the flowers gone?"

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#1653580 - 04/03/11 08:40 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5262
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: weldon29
I thought that the verbal abuse was worst than the physical abuse, he was yelling "LAZY!LAZY!LAZY!" as he was hitting the child, and called her stupid because she didn't know how to do her music theory.
Ok, this is getting too much.

I would've interfered... This is too much and can be damaging to a kids personality.

Nobody is seriously talking about pampering kids and only providing positive feedback, this IS silly, but like in every forum actually there are different ways to say what you have in mind: It's quite a different world to go: "You're a moron and your piano playing is bulls***", rather than go: "I think that your playing needs improvement, because [blah blah]. I also believe that you should take comments more gracefully, especially since you've asked for our opinions [blah blah]". wink
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#1653705 - 04/03/11 12:30 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi Nikolas ... I like your tack, but would like to add.

I've been around for a hundred years ... so ya
betta listen good!! ... with the passing years, I see it as a straight indictment of the Piano Teacher ability if the student doesn't make progress ... Heaven forbid that a frustrated teacher resorts to fisticuffs.

So often teachers undermine their class with a woeful menu of all the things "not to do" ... why not hit a positive stance ... and teach the exciting small fry "what to do!"

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#1653873 - 04/03/11 05:46 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: btb]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5262
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: btb
So often teachers undermine their class with a woeful menu of all the things "not to do" ... why not hit a positive stance ... and teach the exciting small fry "what to do!"
I do agree with that. But I also do no wish to 'trick' my students into liking me, or feeling they are doing something 'right' when they're not. There isn't a specific 'right' or 'wrong' in music, but certainly when something is obvious it needs to be pointed out...
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#1653896 - 04/03/11 06:23 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11679
Loc: Canada
I do agree however with the idea of "what to do" instead of "what not to do", and for practical reasons. Do you know the game, "Don't think of a pink elephant."? You would never think of one, but if you are told not to, that's all you'll think of all day - pink elephants. laugh Similarly, if we are told what not to do, what will we be thinking of and doing? It is much better to try to do something, than to try to not do something. In fact, in order to not do something, we have to aim for what TO do so why not start there?

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#1654002 - 04/03/11 10:43 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
Hmmm... I have known of classroom teachers to get very fired up when the whole class did poorly on an exam. One English teacher broke a yardstick, she smacked a desk so hard (an empty one, luckily), as she complained that she had worked her fingers to the bone to make up the exam questions, and had them duplicated at her own expense. It was kind of touching, actually, and the psychodrama may have awakened some snoozing students.

Then in horticulture school, someone gave a very bad answer on a Soil Science midterm and we heard about it from the prof. The question was: "What is the most common element in the earth's crust?" The student answered: "Carol Doda," who was a topless dancer in San Francisco, one of the first to get silicone breast enlargement. She used to enter the club, dancing on top of a white Baldwin baby grand which was lowered from the ceiling.

However, the correct answer to the test question was, "Silicon," not "Silicone."

Oh well, great moments in pedagogy. I have to say, I've remembered them over the years.

I still say striking or berating a piano student is wrong.
_________________________
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#1654054 - 04/04/11 02:03 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
I can't say I've read all responses here, so I'm kind of jumping into cold water here! But think that if a piano teacher is feeling the urge to "hit" a student, then it's time to go work at Walmart or something! Take it out on the "carts" rather than kids!

The phrase, "fake it till you make it" comes to mind! There are situations where you picture yourself getting so frustrated that you want to do something you should just "not" do, & that would be hitting a child! Staying away from being tired helps, and of course, I have had students come from abusive situations! Where their former piano teacher hit them then thru music at them, all the while "yelling". Of course there are probably two sides to a story, but if a piano teacher has to resort to "hitting" . . . that teacher isn't very intelligent! And motivation has to be with intelligent words! I think hitting is just a frustrated reaction because that teacher has given up "thinking" a strategy! And I think that piano teacher has lost their desire to teach!

Out-smart the little rascals, I say! Smart words & extreme patients will win every time!
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Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#1654061 - 04/04/11 02:56 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
No, I can't say I've heard of any music teachers who would do that here. The worst I've known is a piano teacher throwing an eraser at someone. There's not much you can do when something like that is common in your country and the parent condones it. Yelling is still fair game, though. I had one conductor who yelled through almost every rehearsal, but it was tolerable because nobody was being singled out. You sort of tune it out after awhile.

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#1654064 - 04/04/11 03:08 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: Frozenicicles]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5932
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Yelling is still fair game, though...You sort of tune it out after awhile.
Which makes you wonder why they do it, if they know people are just tuning it out. I'm with Diane - if teachers have to resort to yelling their teaching skills are lacking. Even in the classroom situation (I've been there, I have the grey hairs to prove it) the very best teachers I ever came across did not need to yell.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1654068 - 04/04/11 03:26 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: currawong]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5932
Loc: Down Under
And on the hitting subject - we'd be up for assault if we did it here. But apart from that, I can't see how it could possibly assist learning. Certainly when I was a child they were still caning students at school, but it wasn't about teaching, it was about crowd control, and I'm not too sure it was all that effective for that, either.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1654094 - 04/04/11 05:00 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Only because I’m 100 (not quite ... but getting there!) ... and remember with affection the mid-teen school years ... and the advantage of a gentle-giant arithmetic teacher (of Afrikaaner stock ... who could have been a farmer) ... who taught the basics of sums with a worldly-wise know-how ... and used corporal punishment to great effect .

But not in the way you chaps might have expected ... those 2 sturdy wops on the rear end with a heavy pair of blackboard compasses (those days before TV and the Internet) was dispensed if some ripe Charlie forgot to do his sums homework ... a better persuader there never was ... we all put arithmetic at the top of the homework list ... and interestingly got top marks in the exams ... there has got be a message somewhere in that bleat.

Thank goodness music is a more gentle art form ... some say!

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#1654145 - 04/04/11 08:19 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: btb]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11926
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: btb
Only because I’m 100 (not quite ... but getting there!) ... and remember with affection the mid-teen school years ... and the advantage of a gentle-giant arithmetic teacher (of Afrikaaner stock ... who could have been a farmer) ... who taught the basics of sums with a worldly-wise know-how ... and used corporal punishment to great effect .

But not in the way you chaps might have expected ... those 2 sturdy wops on the rear end with a heavy pair of blackboard compasses (those days before TV and the Internet) was dispensed if some ripe Charlie forgot to do his sums homework ... a better persuader there never was ... we all put arithmetic at the top of the homework list ... and interestingly got top marks in the exams ... there has got be a message somewhere in that bleat.

Thank goodness music is a more gentle art form ... some say!


Were you ever one to get your rump spanked with the compass? If not, I'd like to hear the perspective of one who did. Everyone is different, and what one person may not see as "abuse" another sees it as terribly abusive. It would not surprise me if there were some in your class who were traumatized by getting hit.
_________________________
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#1654241 - 04/04/11 11:13 AM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Answer ... yes, Morodiene ... but never again!!

After that I dutifully completed my arithmetic homework ... and got top marks.

Nothing quite like a "dissuader" to straighten up the ranks ... today the fairies go home and tell Mum.

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#1654505 - 04/04/11 05:49 PM Re: What do you think about hitting young students? [Re: weldon29]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: weldon29
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs


In Malaysia is it normal to hit children at home, school?
Ya, especially young children. Thankfully, more and more people are aware that using abusive words and physical punishment is not the best to raise a child. But most of the older generation still have that mindset.


What do you think about it now Weldon? At the time you chose to do nothing, quite understandably. Do you think there is anything you could or should do? Is it still bothering you?
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


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