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#1654774 - 04/05/11 02:00 AM Question regarding false beats..........
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Is there a way to clean up false beats that have recently appeared? It seems after playing my piano, putting it through some very, very heavy concert style pieces, I am hearing false beats, many in the treble area. Is this somewhat normal after a lot of heavy playing? Does it have something to do with the string termination at the bridge?

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#1654775 - 04/05/11 02:10 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Tunewerk Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 398
Loc: Boston, MA
Absolutely normal. I would guess string seating at the bridge as well. It's important the bridge pins are seated as well as the strings themselves.

You can try seating the string at the bridge with a soft brass tool, and working the length of the string gently with a string stretcher if the first doesn't eliminate the cause of beats.

Other reasons for false beats are numerous, from having more than one technician take care of a piano, to strings getting close to failure. New strings can have false beats if they aren't made to spec and there is enough variability in the mass of the string.

If the piano is tuned to different temperaments/tunings and care is not taken to pull up and bring down pairs of strings together, the string can migrate around the hitch and bridge causing wire that was mated to the bridge to enter into the speaking length. Universities are full of false beating pianos because they are tuned so quickly and by different technicians who tune with different amounts of stretch. This affects the treble the most.

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#1654876 - 04/05/11 07:13 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Are you sure false beats are the culprit? You indicated you put your piano through some heavy playing, in which case some unisons may have drifted...causing REAL beats.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1654892 - 04/05/11 07:56 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
David Jenson Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 1955
Loc: Maine
It simply sounds like you've knocked it out of tune. There is a good reason that concert pianos get tuned more than once a year. wink
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#1654929 - 04/05/11 09:07 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Knowing Grandpianoman, the issue is definitely not tuning. Typically, anything you can do to establish better contact at termination points will be helpful. Of course, that would include what has already been mentioned, as far as tapping down pins and seating strings. The V-bar may also be a culprit, although it's less likely to become an issue suddenly, as you describe. I will PM you with another suggestion.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1654956 - 04/05/11 09:59 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Grandpianoman has a Mason & Hamlin RBB which is a 7 foot semi concert grand with two parallel player systems: the original system that plays the paper rolls and a modern LX system which plays CD's. Both systems play the keys VERY hard! He has some LX discs that play concert type repertoire, so that is why he says that concert type material has been played.

GP is not a fully skilled piano technician but has learned to tune his own piano amazingly well using one ETD or another. The piano is among the most difficult to tune I have ever experienced and every other technician who has tuned it has concurred. Yet, GP does amazingly well. He is a classically trained, professional performing musician, therefore he has a very good ear, especially for unisons.

He likes to hear his piano in perfect tune when he uses it, especially when he makes recordings for us to hear and enjoy (which I do). He is after what we call a "broadcast quality" sound. The piano never stays perfectly in tune for very long at all. Sometimes, the playing of just one piece by Rachmaninoff, for example, may require at least part of the piano to be re-tuned, much as it would during a recording session with an artist playing the same kind of material. The 5th and 6th octaves of this piano have always been the most unstable.

The piano has no climate control. The paper roll player system takes up all available space under the piano, so there is literally no room for one. The Portland, OR climate where GP resides is mild and fairly constant. Nevertheless, the warmth of the day vs. night or rain that often falls can change indoor relative humidity rather quickly. The paper roll system also produces a fair amount of heat which can easily affect the soundboard moisture content in short order.

Therefore, I believe he recognizes a false beat when he encounters one. Simply defined, a single string, (the other two muted) has its own apparent "beat" to it. The ETD display also reflects it. As others have noted, this can be from a variety of causes. Virtually any piano, even the highest quality may have them.

Indeed, I have noticed an inordinate amount of false beats coming from brand new Shigeru Kawais that have been loaned to PTG in the past few years for the tuning exams. I can only speculate that the cause is due to hand carved bridge notches and hand driven bridge pins. The new mass produced Kawais for which these two processes are done by automated equipment have far fewer if any false beats. They develop them later as nearly any piano will do.

As noted by others, any heavily used piano will develop false beats over time for one reason or another. The termination points deteriorate. If you recall 10th grade geometry, a tangent (which is what a termination point is theoretically) has no dimension. The string (a line) meets the termination point (a curve) at a single point which has no length. In reality, there is a small line segment to both the string and the termination point but each is very minimal.

As the termination point deteriorates, that line segment lengthens and tone problems develop. The string digs into the capo bar and creates a groove. The string may also dig into the brass bridge pin and create a groove. The string may dig into the wood of the bridge and create a notch that is not intended to be there.

The string, through numerous tunings and re-tunings can become distorted. Even with no termination point deterioration, the string may have become irregular enough that it produces a false beat.

There is definitely a tendency for hard playing to drive a string upward from the bridge so that it rides higher on the bridge pin than at the base of it. This will cause the bridge pin to wobble and what technicians call "flag polling". The pitch of the string will waver and create a false beat effect. If that is the cause of the false beat, the string can be re-seated but that must be carefully done so as not to damage the bridge notch.

Tunewerk also had a good idea about firmly rubbing the string with a hammer shank or string seating tool. I suspect GP has neither. This technique is only something which can be tried and often does no good. It perhaps works only 1/4 of the time because the problem has to be with a string that has ridden up high. If that is not the problem, the remedy will have no effect. If it is over done, only damage will be the effect.

GP, I suggest that you have Randy, who will be there soon, take a look at the false beat problems. If he cannot remedy them through re-seating, you should have him change the offending strings with new wire. The new wire will be unstable but with frequent tunings, will settle down soon. I believe that to be your best bet and solution considering everything.

It is done by lightly tapping on the string with a brass punch and small hammer. If one hears a "zing" as the string moves, one knows that one has done some good as the string is moved downward and is re-seated upon the bridge. This must be done with extreme caution, however. If it produces no remedy, further pounding of the string will not remedy the problem but may well damage the bridge.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1654965 - 04/05/11 10:19 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
David Jenson Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 1955
Loc: Maine
I stand corrected, but if you look at the original post there is no signature, and the post has no mention of ability to tune or attempts to solve the problem by tuning.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#1654966 - 04/05/11 10:20 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Bill, Tunewerk, et all,

Thank you all for the great suggestions. David, not a problem, I should have mentioned my tuning prowess in my original post.


Indeed, the LX system plays to concert levels...and I have been playing the piano every day with some heavy stuff.(the Ampico is out of commission at the moment) Bill, you are right, I now definitely demand a clean, broadcast quality unison from my piano/tuning. It really bothers me when they are not pure....funny, before I learned how to tune, this was not an issue. ...lol...am spoiled now!

I do know that a false beat comes from 1 string.:) As I was cleaning up the unisons the other day, I noticed a lot more false beats than before....I could NOT get a clean unison, whether by ETD or my ear!.......I think you are right Bill, the strings are riding higher...I am basically having a classical concert a day on the piano.:) This is really the first time I have used the piano on a daily basis with such heavy repertoire.

Will have Randy take a look at it...or I may have my local tech/tuner that rebuilds pianos, (same fellow that tuned EBVTIII with the veriturner) come take a look/listen before Randy gets here.

Dan, thanks for your PM. smile



Edited by Grandpianoman (04/05/11 10:23 AM)
Edit Reason: added a sentence

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#1655216 - 04/05/11 05:25 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
If there is a change from before, and the piano has been kept tuned, I suspect fatigue. The only cure is restringing.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1655233 - 04/05/11 05:54 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Indeed, I have noticed an inordinate amount of false beats coming from brand new Shigeru Kawais that have been loaned to PTG in the past few years for the tuning exams. I can only speculate that the cause is due to hand carved bridge notches and hand driven bridge pins. The new mass produced Kawais for which these two processes are done by automated equipment have far fewer if any false beats. They develop them later as nearly any piano will do.

smile I noticed this witnessing the master tuning, and taking the tuning exam.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

As noted by others, any heavily used piano will develop false beats over time for one reason or another. The termination points deteriorate. If you recall 10th grade geometry, a tangent (which is what a termination point is theoretically) has no dimension. The string (a line) meets the termination point (a curve) at a single point which has no length. In reality, there is a small line segment to both the string and the termination point but each is very minimal.

Bill, reading this paragraph I think you should be bolder when we all speak about the physics and maths in piano tuning. You seem to be able to discern these things way beyond ordinary requirements.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1655282 - 04/05/11 07:07 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: David Jenson]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
I stand corrected, but if you look at the original post there is no signature, and the post has no mention of ability to tune or attempts to solve the problem by tuning.


Ditto!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1655297 - 04/05/11 07:40 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Quote:
The piano has no climate control. The paper roll player system takes up all available space under the piano, so there is literally no room for one.


I wonder if the belly cloth could be removed. Then, a D-C system could be installed below the player mechanism, but the humidistat could be installed close to the underside of the soundboard like on a typical installation. Finally, a black skirt of heavy cloth could be used around the underside of the perimeter of the piano and along the back of the keybed behind the pedals.

I myself have never attempted a D-C install on a reproducing grand. But, I have thought about it. Are there any opinions about whether or not this could be a reasonable and harmless solution if GP wanted to use humidity control to stabilize his piano?

Edit:
Or, maybe just a heating rod(s) with the dehumidifier-only humidistat. Half a loaf...


Edited by daniokeeper (04/05/11 09:36 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#1655378 - 04/05/11 09:55 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
It's great to get these varied perspectives regarding the reasons for false beats.

BDB, all the strings on my piano are about 5 years old. What would be the cause/s of fatigue in stings that are that old? The piano has been kept in tune, as much as I or the other techs have been able to do. smile

Daniokeeper, the damp chase idea is an excellent suggestion that was discussed when I first received the piano. There was just no room under there for a system. We did end up installing the control box/humidistat of the Damp Chaser, with the idea of plugging in a small ac light bulb socket where the rods plug in. The idea was to at least have the small 15 Waat refrigerator bulb in that socket. The bulb burns out after a month or so,and am not sure if it's doing anything. On the other hand, have never thought about hanging a rod below the mechanisms. I already have the vinyl belly cloth off when I make these recordings, and I prefer it off now, as the overall sound is much better.....so your idea may be workable. smile Being that the rod/s would be below the mechanisms, would the rods be close enough to be effective? Heat does rise, so perhaps it would work.

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#1655380 - 04/05/11 10:00 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: pppat]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: pppat

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

As noted by others, any heavily used piano will develop false beats over time for one reason or another. The termination points deteriorate. If you recall 10th grade geometry, a tangent (which is what a termination point is theoretically) has no dimension. The string (a line) meets the termination point (a curve) at a single point which has no length. In reality, there is a small line segment to both the string and the termination point but each is very minimal.

Bill, reading this paragraph I think you should be bolder when we all speak about the physics and maths in piano tuning. You seem to be able to discern these things way beyond ordinary requirements.


LOL, Patrick. The last time I studied math, I was 15 years old. That was 43 years ago. In high school, I was a music major. I entered college as a music major (liberal arts). I had to take a pre-entrance exam which had a math section. Apparently, I knew enough math that as a music and eventually French major, I never needed to take another math course.

I can't help it if I actually remember what I was taught in high school!

Regarding the above quote, instead of the tangent being between a line and a curve, it is actually between two curves. Either way, this creates a tangent. Once that tangent is elongated, that's when the trouble with tone begins.

GP, I think having that local tech over would be a good idea. If he can't get rid of the false beats by tapping, just have him replace the wire. It would be a good idea to find out what make of wire Randy used.

One good tip for tuning a unison with a false beat that comes from a fellow advocate of Well temperaments: Tune the outside strings as best possible to the ETD program. Tune the middle string by ear to the two outside strings. You'll hide the false beat the best you can that way.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1655385 - 04/05/11 10:07 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1542
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
[...] instead of the tangent being between a line and a curve, it is actually between two curves. Either way, this creates a tangent. Once that tangent is elongated, that's when the trouble with tone begins

Right, when the vibrating string is up it has a different length than when it is down, to it is two pitches at the same time, which causes beats. I guess you haven't forgotten your physics classes when you were 15 either. Though as far as I know this material is not taught until graduate school, if at all, at least at my university. smile

Kees

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#1655388 - 04/05/11 10:09 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Bill,

The wire was definitely Roslau.

Thanks for the tuning tip about the outside strings...I am always using the middle string fist.

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#1655413 - 04/05/11 10:46 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Kees, I only got as far as plane geometry. That's all it takes to understand this concept.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1655427 - 04/05/11 11:03 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
That reminds me of the time I showed my sister how to convert Fahrenheit temperature to Celsuis: C = F-32 ./. 1.8 (or F = C x 1.8 +32). She had been making trips to Japan for her work as a costume designer. The Celsius temperatures were meaningless to her. I had spent my senior year in college in France, so they were familiar to me but I had also remembered how to convert one to the other.

She asked me, "Where did you learn that?" I replied, in 9th grade Algebra in Junior High School (often called "Middle School" now). She said, "The only thing I remember from that school is trying to get home alive from it!" By the time she was in 7th grade, gangs and drugs had invaded the school. She had to be switched to another school.

I still remember basic Algebra concepts too. However, when performing examiner duties, it is often required to make calculations with a mix of positive and negative numbers. To me, that has always been confusing. The only thing that has saved me in certain instances is remembering clearly the Algebra teacher saying, "Minus a negative is the same as plus a positive".

Thus, -2.0 - -2.0 = 0 (not -4.0).
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1655445 - 04/05/11 11:25 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1542
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
[...] plane geometry. That's all it takes to understand this concept.

Spoken like a true physicist! smile

Kees

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#1655470 - 04/06/11 12:33 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
Quote:
BDB, all the strings on my piano are about 5 years old. What would be the cause/s of fatigue in stings that are that old? The piano has been kept in tune, as much as I or the other techs have been able to do.

Heavy playing causes fatigue.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1655474 - 04/06/11 12:51 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1542
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
[...]a mix of positive and negative numbers. To me, that has always been confusing. The only thing that has saved me in certain instances is remembering clearly the Algebra teacher saying, "Minus a negative is the same as plus a positive".

Thus, -2.0 - -2.0 = 0 (not -4.0).


Sure, and the deviation of A# for the ET via Marpurg sequence on your webpage still has the wrong sign, despite many people attending you to this fact, and flipping the sign to the correct value is essential for the EBVT via Marpurg procedure to set F3 to be correct.

Einstein had the same problem apparently in school, which is why he could only get a non-academic job at a patent office smile

Cheers,
Kees

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#1655475 - 04/06/11 12:52 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
...
Daniokeeper, the damp chase idea is an excellent suggestion that was discussed when I first received the piano. There was just no room under there for a system. We did end up installing the control box/humidistat of the Damp Chaser, with the idea of plugging in a small ac light bulb socket where the rods plug in. The idea was to at least have the small 15 Waat refrigerator bulb in that socket. The bulb burns out after a month or so,and am not sure if it's doing anything. On the other hand, have never thought about hanging a rod below the mechanisms. I already have the vinyl belly cloth off when I make these recordings, and I prefer it off now, as the overall sound is much better.....so your idea may be workable. smile Being that the rod/s would be below the mechanisms, would the rods be close enough to be effective? Heat does rise, so perhaps it would work.


Hi GP,

I suggested using a skirt so that the heating rod(s) could be set well below the player mechanism. I don't think it's a good idea to have drying heat radiating too close to the tubing and pneumatic cloth.

Please do consult with others before you do anything. Like I said in my earlier post, I never installed a D-C unit in a reproducing grand. There may well be pitfalls I am not aware of.

Good luck! smile
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#1655590 - 04/06/11 08:14 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Instead of all the gymnastics it would take to fit a Dampp-Chaser system in this piano, why not install a high quality humidifier and dehumidifier, with digital controls, in the room? Yes, they require some maintenance and tending to, but they do a terrific job of controlling the ENTIRE environment of the piano, could be turned off when you are in the room listening to the piano, and would not entail all these machinations to try to make them fit.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1655622 - 04/06/11 09:30 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
pianocat88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 99
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
There has been no mention of the condition of the hammers on the piano in question. When was the last time it had a shaping and voicing?
_________________________
Lisa Weller, RPT
Huntington Beach, CA
www.wellerpianoservice.com

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#1655775 - 04/06/11 02:46 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi pianocat88,

The hammers are very new, "Classical West" hammers from Ari Isaac.......I have not had any work done on them yet, allowing them to voice themselves for awhile, before having them voiced. They are a bit on the hard side at this point, but have mellowed a bit since installing them several months ago.

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#1655800 - 04/06/11 03:28 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
pianocat88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 99
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Hi GP-
You could be hearing noises from the hammers having uneven hardness and other hammer/string issues. Before you go replacing wires I'd have the tech who installed the hammers come for a service visit. Of course there are ways of discerning whether the noise is coming from the hammer or the string. Expect the tech to do some string work, some hammer work, some hammer/string work and some tuning. They they can voice the piano. Several months is a long time when the piano is getting "very, very heavy concert style playing".

It's fun to speculate about all the different reasons for noises and bothersome problems on fine instruments but there's nothing like being there and seeing and hearing what's really going on.
_________________________
Lisa Weller, RPT
Huntington Beach, CA
www.wellerpianoservice.com

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#1655863 - 04/06/11 05:07 PM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Chris Leslie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 456
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
If unsure whether hammer or string is at fault you can temporarily swap two adjacent hammers, one is OK the other not, to isolate the fault.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1656095 - 04/07/11 02:34 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Gladd to be learning more about the technical aspects of the piano, so far, it's been pretty much tuning for me.

BDB....that's news to me, thanks for the heads-up.

Pianocat88, thanks for the suggestions...I was not aware that hard hammers could contribute to false beats. I was planning on having the hammers voiced very soon. Will definitely have the other possibilities checked out. smile



Edited by Grandpianoman (04/07/11 02:35 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#1656153 - 04/07/11 05:47 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 268
Loc: Minnesota
It is very easy to test whether the problem is loose bridge pins. Simply rest a heavy screwdriver against the bridge pin in question so that the screwdriver is perpendicular to the string. This will temporarily brace the pin and make it rigid. If that clears up the fasle beat, then that pin is the problem. (First mute all but one string at a time.)
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#1656163 - 04/07/11 06:59 AM Re: Question regarding false beats.......... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1867
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Robert,

I'm very interested in your test for false-beats from loose bridge pins. Just to make sure I understand correctly what you mean by "screwdriver is perpendicular to the string": must the screwdriver also be perpendicular to the bridge pin, i.e. must it basically reinforce/brace the side-bearing that the bridge pin puts on the string?

(Apologies if the question appears stupid - it's just that the bridge pin itself is already perpendicular to the string, so given your description, I wasn't 100% sure how to place the screwdriver.)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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