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#1658146 - 04/11/11 09:54 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
When you get past a certain level of tuning, it doesn't matter much where you start aurally. I speak a lot in favor of CM3's, and I always start by placing them, but then refine the temperament guided by 4ths/5ths.

I think pretty much everybody agree that both SBI's and RBI's are needed. Just as Jeff and Emmery, I give priority to the SBI's, and I believe most tuners do.

Please feel free to challenge this, it's just from the top of my mind.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1658152 - 04/11/11 10:00 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
So, I'll be the party pooper...

While it is "quaint" - or perhaps "noble" to pursue aural tuning, modern electronic tuning devices are much more able to construct either equal temperament or any number of tonal temperaments that can then be spread to the rest of the piano by traditional means.

.....

I am going to directly challenge this. I have seen the beatrate curves for RBIs on a Baldwin Studio as tuned by a Verituner. They were picture perfect. But I know how the SBIs would sound: HORRIBLE!.

It reminds me very much of the 70’s when I learned to tune. Strob-o-tuners were becoming popular because they were supposed to be more accurate. They didn’t know better, I guess. Oh, but now we do and the answer is modern ETDs? I do not buy it. Sure, if you cannot set a temperament aurally, you might as well use a machine. But that does not mean that a machine does a better job than someone that can tune aurally. Want to prove if you can really set an accurate aural temperament? Use the circle of fifths!

And another thing, what is this nonsense about “tonal” vs “atonal” temperaments? ET is omnitonal, not atonal. UT is … heck I don’t know what it is! It just sounds out of tune!



If you will follow along, the recommendation I made suggested using a temperament location higher than an aural setting. This avoids the problems that you mention with the Baldwin studios because the temperament is then spread out with a hybrid method that leans heavily on the old aural tradition of using octaves/doubles/and octave fifth to place those tenor/bass notes. RBI's are ignored with this method.

As to tonal/atonal - look it up in the dictionary. A tuning without a built in tonal center is by definition atonal. You can call it omnitonal, but I don't think that is really how it functions. Tonal tunings on the other hand are just that - tunings that have a tonal center.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1658154 - 04/11/11 10:05 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Pat:

I certainly do not challenge how you tune. I do challenge how tuning sequences are explained. There is a strong insinuation that a firm ladder of CM3s is the only correct way to start a temperament and that these should not be touched after being set.

But what I find impossible to decide on, when I attempt to start with a ladder of CM3s and something needs to be adjusted, is if it the error is the F, the C# or both? It becomes ambiguous where the error is. There is a solution, but only for well scaled pianos. It is using ET via Marpurg with additional RBI checks immediately after tuning the temporarily tuned SBIs.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1658164 - 04/11/11 10:17 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ron:

Sure!

Here are definitions from the Merriam-Webster website:

Definition of TONALITY
1: tonal quality
2a: key 7 b : the organization of all the tones and harmonies of a piece of music in relation to a tonic
3: the arrangement or interrelation of the tones of a work of visual art


Definition of ATONAL
: marked by avoidance of traditional musical tonality; especially : organized without reference to key or tonal center and using the tones of the chromatic scale impartially


This has to do with written music NOT tuning theory!

But your suggestion of using an ETD to set the temperament only in a well scaled part of the piano is a good one. I wonder how a non-aural tuner is to know where this is.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1658189 - 04/11/11 10:55 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Yes it has to do with written music - AND how a tuning can be constructed based on that theory of writing music, either tonal or atonal.

Usually about a half octave to an octave above the stringing break the scale of a piano becomes more consistent. On little spinets that means sometimes my two octave temperament may be from A4-A6!

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1658191 - 04/11/11 10:56 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: pppat]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2374
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat
When you get past a certain level of tuning, it doesn't matter much where you start aurally. I speak a lot in favor of CM3's, and I always start by placing them, but then refine the temperament guided by 4ths/5ths.

I think pretty much everybody agree that both SBI's and RBI's are needed. Just as Jeff and Emmery, I give priority to the SBI's, and I believe most tuners do.

Please feel free to challenge this, it's just from the top of my mind.


I have never felt the need for using CM3's in a temperament sequence. I understand that many people do, but my main complaint of it is that once you get above 8-10 bps on an interval, your aural perception of beat rates diminishes exponentially and the term "souring" is more applicable than "beat rate". In a practical sense of what you are doing it may not be as important but two well seasoned tuners can argue untill the cows come home about whether two sets of intervals comparitively are this or that when you get above this threshold.

I wouldn't entirely agree about most tuners refining the SBI's in this day and age. ETD users often ignore checking these intervals and let them sit wherever the machine leaves them. If the SBI's are not incorporated into the temperament sequence as a primary function aurally, you also run the risk with aural tuners that they skip refining some of them and move on, out of haste and speed.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1658204 - 04/11/11 11:21 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Emmery]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Emmery

I have never felt the need for using CM3's in a temperament sequence. I understand that many people do, but my main complaint of it is that once you get above 8-10 bps on an interval, your aural perception of beat rates diminishes exponentially and the term "souring" is more applicable than "beat rate". In a practical sense of what you are doing it may not be as important but two well seasoned tuners can argue untill the cows come home about whether two sets of intervals comparitively are this or that when you get above this threshold.


I agree, and that's why I throw in the CM3's pretty fast, and spend more time on the refinement. To me, the CM3's get me close, fast, and the ladder of CM3's also helps me to find a good octave width.


Originally Posted By: Emmery

I wouldn't entirely agree about most tuners refining the SBI's in this day and age. ETD users often ignore checking these intervals and let them sit wherever the machine leaves them. If the SBI's are not incorporated into the temperament sequence as a primary function aurally, you also run the risk with aural tuners that they skip refining some of them and move on, out of haste and speed.


Yes, and that goes to priority once more. But you may be right, maybe prioritizing SBI's isn't as common as I'd want it to be.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1658207 - 04/11/11 11:27 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Jeff: I use something very close to ET via Marpurg for starters, then I go into comparing every note of the temperament against it's 4th and 5th. Then I start moving things around until I'm happy, kind of a molding method... The potterY temperament smile

I rarely have to move F3, and basically never A3.

I do not know if this is the best way to come out landing on your feet, but it works for me smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1658234 - 04/11/11 12:05 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Ron Voy
Hello, I really enjoy reading this tech forum - this is my first post and I don't quite know where to start.... I'm learning to tune and I've got this old book describing to tune to the cirle of fifths. Now after 30, 40 attempts I just can't get it right. I tune all fifths slightly narrow, probably about half a wave per second, but I always end up with the last fifth (d to a) beating too fast - even if I almost exagerate the fifths so they definitely beat too fast? I was thinking maybe I'm losing something in the octaves (by making them a tiny bit too narrow) but I just can't imagine such a small inaccuracy in the octave would cause this. I then work all the way backwards,trying to re-adjust it and judging by the amount I have to nudge the pins back, I'm out by quite a lot, I just don't understand where the mistake lies.
I'm also trying to tune to a different scale, a C scale with the F being slightly sharp. I probably haven't studied the theory enough, but with the ET being equal (ie the end result should always be the same) does it mean the F which is sharp in the C scale is in fact tuned to the same frequency in both scales, in the C scale as well as in the large temperament of the circle of fifths? As I narrow the fifth with the F as the higher note in a fifth it feels as if I'm flattening the F?
I don't want to get stuck on the circle of fifths - I just hope somebody can explain to me what I might be doing wrong!


Welcome to the wonderful world of tuning! For starters, congratulations on attempting to learn to tune aurally. While I perceive that RonTuner was being facetious calling aural tuning "quaint" and "noble" I actually agree in a literal way - it is quaint and noble, which is what makes it fun and rewarding. When you master it, you will feel part of an elite club of piano technicians that have taken the time and energy to learn the most basic skill of our craft. I have yet to meet someone who regrets having taken the time to learn to tune by ear. I have met many technicians who wish they could do it.

When I decided to pursue this as a career, I took a look at who the top piano technicians were in my region in order to know what my goals should be. Every one of them are excellent ear tuners. Some regularly use an ETD in their work, others don’t. But they all feel that aural tuning is an important foundational skill. Also, not having aural tuning skills will close certain doors to you. Many university jobs will not be available to you, and if you ever wanted to work for Steinway & Sons as a technician or contract tuner, you will be shown the door if you are dependent on an ETD.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1658235 - 04/11/11 12:08 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
One thing that comes to mind is that we don't know what kind of piano you are working on. If it is a console or spinet, achieving a "textbook" tuning will be an impossibility. I suggest not practicing on any upright under 45" or grand under 5'4". Otherwise the wacky tension changes that occur around the temperament of small pianos will really mess with your beat rates.


One of the problems beginners run up against is expecting too much of any temperament sequence. There is the hope that if you find the "right" sequence your temperament struggles will be over. Put that idea behind you. If you end up with a great temperament after one pass through your sequence consider yourself very lucky, and don't expect it to happen often.

The sequence, in most cases, is only roughing in the temperament. It's a starting place, not an end result. It's like the rough sandpaper you use before the fine sandpaper. So what you need now is a collection of temperament troubleshooting techniques that can refine your results.

When I’m refining a temperament I listen to parallel intervals up and down: 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths. I pick out the most out of place interval and then try to figure out where the problem is. Both notes are put on trial and the jury is a series of aural checks like contiguous 3rds and 4ths and inside 3rd/outside 6th test etc. If you think you may need to raise a note up slightly, you need to look how that change will affect all the other intervals associated with that note. Developing a good repertoire of checks is essential.

I have tuned using both the 3rd 6th type of approach, and have also used the old Braid White method. Either can be a great starting point. My approach now is a sort of hybrid of the two approaches. As time goes on, you will learn what works best for you.

One thing I highly recommend is developing relationships with skilled mentors. Find out who the very best technicians are in your region and seek them out. Be respectful of their time and be willing to pay them. In some cases, becoming a member of PTG can be a big help. This depends largely on your local demographics and the health of the local organization.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

Top
#1658237 - 04/11/11 12:09 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2374
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Patrick, I know an elderly fellow who is a PTG member that exclusively tunes all his temperaments in the F2-F3 range. He feels that his M3rds come out more refined in the end. I really seen no issues with his temperament and how it succesively gets expanded into the tuning so I think there is a high amount of leniency on ones' approach to where and how its done. Perhaps the differences in approach can also be attributed to varying strengths and weaknesses of each individuals capabilities and limitations. When I first started tuning I had great difficulties with 4ths for some reason, yet most of my classmates had complained about 5ths. I would love to know exactly how and why there are these differences. I find it to be one of the more attracive traits of this trade, to be able to find what best works for yourself in achieving a decent tuning.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1658320 - 04/11/11 02:56 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: RonTuner]
Karen A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 36
That's helpful. I hadn't heard about the lower half octave of the plain wire string before. My understanding of TuneLab was that once it has a piano's inharmonicity measurements, it constructs a tuning curve that lets the piano be tuned in any sequence - even note by note all the way up the scale. I wouldn't have thought that it would be more reliable for some strings than others.

So if I want to stretch an octave more than TuneLab does, say by making A5 sharper than the given tuning curve, does TuneLab incorporate that custom offset when calculating its recommended frequency for A6, A7 etc. or does it just let you record that you're using a different frequency for the single note A5? That is, will the entire right half of the tuning curve be more stretched based on my tuning of A5?

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#1658335 - 04/11/11 03:45 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
You will have to adjust the curve to get it to cross the point of the custom offset by use of the arrows up and down once you have the curve displayed.

The custom offset should show red. Use the menu to lock the custom offset note so it doesn't shift as the rest of the curve moves. You can set a couple of notes to really customize the tuning curve to better match the instrument.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1658481 - 04/11/11 07:47 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: UnrightTooner]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

But what I find impossible to decide on, when I attempt to start with a ladder of CM3s and something needs to be adjusted, is if it the error is the F, the C# or both? It becomes ambiguous where the error is. There is a solution, but only for well scaled pianos. It is using ET via Marpurg with additional RBI checks immediately after tuning the temporarily tuned SBIs.


You mean checking the chromatic m3rds or m6ths, right? I remember that you wrote about this a few years ago. It was a good test to get under the belt.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1658588 - 04/11/11 10:31 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: UnrightTooner]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Here is a link to a book online. It is considered to be the standard way of tuning by 4ths and 5ths:

http://www.archive.org/stream/modernpianotunin00whit#page/n3/mode/2up

If you hate reading stuff online here's a free pdf of the same.

Kees

Top
#1658614 - 04/11/11 11:05 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
As an aside, here's an intersting quote from White's book about ET>

Kees

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#1658659 - 04/12/11 12:04 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: DoelKees]
Ron Voy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 37
I didn't realize that the method White is describing in his book is also attributed to the Circle of Fifths.
The tuning sequence I thought was the one and only "Circle" of Fifths is as follows:

A3 to fork,
A2 to A3 (octave down),
E3 to A2 (fifth up),
E2 to E3 (octave down),
B2 to E2 (fifth up),
F-sharp3 to B2 (fifth up),
F-sharp2 to F-sharp3(octave down),
C-sharp3 to F-sharp2 (fifth up),
G-sharp3 to C-sharp3 (fifth up),
G-sharp2 to G-sharp3 (octave down),
D-sharp3 to G-sharp2 (fifth up),
D-sharp2 to D-sharp3 (octave down),
A-sharp2 to D-sharp2 (fifth up),
F3 to A-sharp2 (fifth up),
F2 to F3 (octave down),
C3 to F2 (fifth up),
G3 to C3 (fifth up),
G2 to G3 (octave down),
and finally
D3 to G2 (fifth up).

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#1658677 - 04/12/11 12:35 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: DoelKees]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Here is a link to a book online. It is considered to be the standard way of tuning by 4ths and 5ths:

http://www.archive.org/stream/modernpianotunin00whit#page/n3/mode/2up

If you hate reading stuff online here's a free pdf of the same.

Kees

Or just get your own copy:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/9996267636/

One of the first books I bought after Reblitz.
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

Top
#1658684 - 04/12/11 12:44 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Jim Moy]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jim Moy
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Here is a link to a book online. It is considered to be the standard way of tuning by 4ths and 5ths:

http://www.archive.org/stream/modernpianotunin00whit#page/n3/mode/2up

If you hate reading stuff online here's a free pdf of the same.

Kees

Or just get your own copy:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/9996267636/

One of the first books I bought after Reblitz.


Why pay $10 to some random company unrelated to the author if it's free?

Kees

Top
#1658811 - 04/12/11 07:15 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: pppat]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

But what I find impossible to decide on, when I attempt to start with a ladder of CM3s and something needs to be adjusted, is if it the error is the F, the C# or both? It becomes ambiguous where the error is. There is a solution, but only for well scaled pianos. It is using ET via Marpurg with additional RBI checks immediately after tuning the temporarily tuned SBIs.


You mean checking the chromatic m3rds or m6ths, right? I remember that you wrote about this a few years ago. It was a good test to get under the belt.


Close: minor 3rds and Major 6ths. Probably just a typo.

But what I am saying is: that is the only way I can make them work. And I don't know if it would work across a break.

Have you tried setting a temperament by only tuning 4ths and 5ths and listening to 3rds and 6ths? Even if you don't enjoy it, you may learn a thing or two.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1658814 - 04/12/11 07:28 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Kees:

Thanks for posting the quote from Dr. White. Reading it reminds me of just how objective he was, not some villian that destroyed music like some portray him.

And why pay $10 for a book if it can be read for free online? Well, I like books! I can enjoy them while sitting in a relaxing chair and holding the book at a comfortable position.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1658863 - 04/12/11 10:13 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: DoelKees]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Why pay $10 to some random company unrelated to the author if it's free?

Free if you don't mind sitting in front of your computer to read it. I suppose my iPad might suffice, but it seems to have been taken over by the rest of the family smile I'm as much a computer nerd as anyone, yet there are many reasons I prefer real books to screens, no matter how portable.
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

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#1658890 - 04/12/11 11:27 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Jim Moy]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jim Moy
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Why pay $10 to some random company unrelated to the author if it's free?

Free if you don't mind sitting in front of your computer to read it. I suppose my iPad might suffice, but it seems to have been taken over by the rest of the family smile I'm as much a computer nerd as anyone, yet there are many reasons I prefer real books to screens, no matter how portable.

I just opload the pdf to the nearest copy shop and have it nicely bound. That's more expensive than buying the book but I have the illusion that I got it for free.

Kees

Top
#1658910 - 04/12/11 12:03 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: UnrightTooner]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Have you tried setting a temperament by only tuning 4ths and 5ths and listening to 3rds and 6ths? Even if you don't enjoy it, you may learn a thing or two.


I haven't tried that order exclusively, but you're right - I should, and will.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1658915 - 04/12/11 12:16 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Emmery]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Perhaps the differences in approach can also be attributed to varying strengths and weaknesses of each individuals capabilities and limitations. When I first started tuning I had great difficulties with 4ths for some reason, yet most of my classmates had complained about 5ths. I would love to know exactly how and why there are these differences. I find it to be one of the more attracive traits of this trade, to be able to find what best works for yourself in achieving a decent tuning.

Emmery, I completely agree.
Ryan, the same goes for your post above.

I could have signed both of these. But you beat me to it. smile


Edited by pppat (04/12/11 02:31 PM)
Edit Reason: mild curse removed
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1658921 - 04/12/11 12:36 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: pppat]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Pat:

Thanks! smile
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1658968 - 04/12/11 01:39 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Jeff: I apologize if you took offence, it didn't sound bad to my ears. That happens sometimes due to English not being my native language. I don't really hear nuances of the words that I can't list here...

This said, during my years in NY I never understood why cop movies on public TV channels replaced every hint of a curse with a *beep*, although those words was heard everywhere on the streets, from people of all possible sex/age/belief/ethnicity aso. That is, and still is, double standard to me.

Where DO you draw the line? Are you representing the majority? I am just curious, and I'm still trying to learn your customs.


Edited by pppat (04/12/11 03:18 PM)
Edit Reason: edited for coherence
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1658984 - 04/12/11 02:11 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I doubt if I represent ANY majority. laugh laugh laugh

I don’t know what they do on TV anymore. It is up in the attic.

I once heard that Catholics tend to avoid taking “The Lord’s Name in Vain” but use sexual explicit terms instead. Protestants tend to do the opposite. Having gone to sea for 24 years most things do not bother me, although the setting can be inappropriate, such as this Forum…. A true Curse does get under my skin, though, if directed at a person, even jokingly. But it can be humorous when directed at an inanimate object. Is there really a place of eternal punishment for false beats?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1658993 - 04/12/11 02:28 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
smile I remember my arrival in NY 1994. At the airport, a cab forced our airport bus driver to hit the brakes. Out jumped both drivers, starting to yell obscenities at each other.

They kept on doing so for about a minute, gesticulating wildly, then they went back to their vehicles and got back to work.

Where I live, the first few worlds would have been enough to start a fight where only one would remain standing.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1658995 - 04/12/11 02:31 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
You could look at it this way: Neither were standing, they were both groveling in the mud.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
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