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#1659005 - 04/12/11 03:03 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
How true.

I also remember when I once made an impression of a friend of mine, loosely quoting the way he speaks, and he instantly yelled "I would NEVER take that word in my mouth!". In my ears it was an innocent curse in line with his everyday talk, but somehow there was a clearly defined line drawn that I never saw.

Now, Jeff, how can we tie all this back to tuning along the circle of 5ths? help grin
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1659126 - 04/12/11 06:08 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: RonTuner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
A tuning without a built in tonal center is by definition atonal. You can call it omnitonal, but I don't think that is really how it functions. Tonal tunings on the other hand are just that - tunings that have a tonal center.



Well wait a minute. The music being played is what is atonal or tonal, regardless of temperament. A piano is an atonal instrument. Only when someone sits down and plays something in the key of whatever does it become tonal. If someone sits down and plays a 12-tone Schoenberg piece, then it's atonal. This is a function totally outside the temperament or the tuning, so I'm not quite getting how a temperament is being called tonal or atonal.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1659133 - 04/12/11 06:16 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Loren D]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I think calling them equal and unequal is clearer than calling them atonal and tonal.

Kees

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#1659158 - 04/12/11 07:09 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: DoelKees]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
I think calling them equal and unequal is clearer than calling them atonal and tonal.

Kees


Ah, ok! Thanks, Kees.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1659163 - 04/12/11 07:19 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
Ron Voy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: Ron Voy
I didn't realize that the method White is describing in his book is also attributed to the Circle of Fifths.
The tuning sequence I thought was the one and only "Circle" of Fifths is as follows:

A3 to fork,
A2 to A3 (octave down),
E3 to A2 (fifth up),
E2 to E3 (octave down),
B2 to E2 (fifth up),
F-sharp3 to B2 (fifth up),
F-sharp2 to F-sharp3(octave down),
C-sharp3 to F-sharp2 (fifth up),
G-sharp3 to C-sharp3 (fifth up),
G-sharp2 to G-sharp3 (octave down),
D-sharp3 to G-sharp2 (fifth up),
D-sharp2 to D-sharp3 (octave down),
A-sharp2 to D-sharp2 (fifth up),
F3 to A-sharp2 (fifth up),
F2 to F3 (octave down),
C3 to F2 (fifth up),
G3 to C3 (fifth up),
G2 to G3 (octave down),
and finally
D3 to G2 (fifth up).


Back to topic:
Any comments on my circle of fifths tuning sequence listed above? Does anybody still tune after this? The questions I had in my first post in this thread related specifically to this method, tuning octaves and ascending fifths only.
Thanks!

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#1659175 - 04/12/11 07:55 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Why would you be setting that temperament down that low? A2 is in the bass section. I start at A4 and then:

A3 to A4
E4 to A3
B3 to E4
F#3 to B3
C#4 to F#3
G#3 to C#4
D#4 go G#3
A#3 to D#4
F4 to A#3
C4 to F4
G3 to C4
D4 go G3

Along the way I'm checking M3rds and M6ths.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1659228 - 04/12/11 10:24 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Loren D]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Here is link to White's tuning scheme. You have to add 1 to all note subscripts to conform to present day American notation.

Kees

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#1659234 - 04/12/11 10:43 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Loren D]
Ron Voy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 37
Sorry, I made a mistake with the annotation, I got it wrong by an octave. This is the correct annotation: (hopefully)

A4 to fork,
A3 to A4 (octave down),
E4 to A3 (fifth up),
E3 to E4 (octave down),
B3 to E3 (fifth up),
F-sharp4 to B3 (fifth up),
F-sharp3 to F-sharp4(octave down),
C-sharp4 to F-sharp3 (fifth up),
G-sharp4 to C-sharp4 (fifth up),
G-sharp3 to G-sharp4 (octave down),
D-sharp4 to G-sharp3 (fifth up),
D-sharp3 to D-sharp4 (octave down),
A-sharp3 to D-sharp3 (fifth up),
F4 to A-sharp3 (fifth up),
F3 to F4 (octave down),
C4 to F3 (fifth up),
G4 to C4 (fifth up),
G3 to G4 (octave down),
and finally
D4 to G3 (fifth up).





Edited by Ron Voy (04/12/11 11:31 PM)

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#1659362 - 04/13/11 08:33 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ron:

I can see a potential problem with including all these octaves. Let's say someone has a tendency to tune octaves haphazardly. Some a little wide and some a little narrow. The circle may be completed, but the resulting fourths will not be even, which of course means it will not be ET.

This problem can be lessened by listening to the resulting fourths when tuning octaves. And any time a fourth or fifth is in question an octave can be tuned to check the complimentary SBI. I especially do this when tuning an SBI across a break. By why include all these octaves when the circle can be made with alternating 4ths and 5ths? I suppose it could be a coping strategy if someone has real difficulties with 4ths. There is a time and a place for everything.

But lets also look at which RBIs come available when. The first is the A3-F#4 Major sixth which would beat about 10 bps: a bit fast to start off with. The next is the A3-C#4 Major third at about 9 bps: this one isn’t so bad and along with it is E3-C#4 Major sixth at about 7.5 bps: that is a nice speed, but if this is a smaller piano, E3 is probably on the bass bridge and there can be significant jumps in beat speed.

The next type of important check that will become available happens when half the circle of fifth has been tuned. It is the M6 outside – M3 inside check. When D#4 is tuned, the B3-D#4 M3 should beat about 10 bps, the same as the first RBI which is A3-F#4. Again, this is a bit fast, but useable.

Now let’s jump ahead to the all important ninth note: F. When F3 is tuned it forms a Major third below A3. (A3 can easily be checked with the beginning note of A4.) This F3-A3 major third has previously tuned chromatic M3s above and below it. If everything tuned to this point is a bit wide it will beat too slow when compared to the other M3s. If everything is tuned a bit too narrow, it will beat too fast. If there is an error, then the previously tuned notes must be checked and retuned as need be. Since octaves were included, this adds many more places for errors and many more notes that need to be retuned. Also, since the sequence has gone only in one direction from A, corrections cannot be made from only one end towards the middle. It can often happen that not all intervals are in error, but if the sequence is only in one direction in the circle of fifths, it may be necessary to retune all the notes. But if D and perhaps G had been tuned at the beginning, correcting any errors that only became obvious when the ninth note is tuned (which would then be A#3 or perhaps D#3) would probably be easier.

Well, this illustrates some of the things to consider when choosing a 4ths and 5ths sequence. Much can depend on the size of pianos that are tuned and the particular tuner’s abilities. Try different sequences and see what works for you. It may not be a 4ths and 5ths sequence that you prefer, anyway. smile
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1659821 - 04/14/11 01:34 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: UnrightTooner]
Ron Voy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 37
Jeff, thank you for going through this sequence for me. Would you mind explaining the "M6 outside, M3 inside" test that you mention a bit further? How do you quickly find the corresponding M3s and M6s?
Thanks.

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#1659909 - 04/14/11 07:04 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Ron Voy
Jeff, thank you for going through this sequence for me. Would you mind explaining the "M6 outside, M3 inside" test that you mention a bit further? How do you quickly find the corresponding M3s and M6s?
Thanks.


You are very welcome!

The M6 outside, M3 inside test is very easy to find if you know your dominant 7 chords. Consider the G7 chord. It is made from G, B, D and F. If the chord is arranged so that the seventh is on the bottom (F, G, B and D) then it is in the inversion needed for the test. For example, the F3-D4 M6 should beat the same as G3-B3 M3.

If you do not know your dominant 7 chords then take any M6, and compare it to the M3 that is a whole step (two semitones) higher. Or take any M3 and compare it to the M6 that is a whole step lower. If you are not sure of the sharps and flats, use the key signature for the note a fourth above the bottom of the M3.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1662164 - 04/18/11 06:37 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Ron Voy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Ron,



There is also a sound file that displays just how these initial RBI's should sound. It should be very helpful to you:

http://www.billbremmer.com/videos/ET_CM3s.mp3

All of this material is free to view, download and share.





Hi Bill. Sorry to hear about your accident, I hope your situation is improving. The above link to the beat rates is indeed very useful as is your entire website.

Also to others: I wonder whether on can find all typical bps rates on the internet as sound files, it would help to memorize them and to have them for comparison, next to the piano!

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#1662443 - 04/18/11 05:07 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: pppat]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 580
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Interesting that the Sanderson manual, for all of the tuning sequences, emphasizes getting the M3's correct first, and then setting the M5's and M4's.

EDIT: Not trying to be contrary here. When did the more recent emphasis on setting the M5's and M4's start? Was there a specific writer who shifted the focus to the SBI's, or has there just been a gradual movement in that direction?


Edited by Jake Jackson (04/19/11 01:01 AM)

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#1662921 - 04/19/11 12:41 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Jake:

I have wondered how tuning with a ladder of Major thirds (CM3s) became popular! It used to be that tuning with 4ths and 5ths was the norm.

Best I can figure it happened around the time the PTG starting testing with ETDs. And it seems to go with the accuracy that is required by the exam. A deductable error is the same amount of error as would be easily recognizable in the beatrate progression of CM3s.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1663765 - 04/20/11 04:55 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 580
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hm...One other thing I notice about the Sanderson tuning sequences is that they start on C to form the temperament. I think Braid White does the same. (?)

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#1663996 - 04/21/11 02:33 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
Ron Voy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 37
I'm learning using a C fork at 523.3 Hz and setting the temperament from F3 to F4 (keys 33-45).


Edited by Ron Voy (04/21/11 02:34 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#1664025 - 04/21/11 05:38 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
darrenhee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 7
how do you count the beat at 4th or 5th?

i was told by a steinway tuner that they tune by using 3th 6th and 10th

iam so amaze and curious...
_________________________
www.buy-piano.blogspot.com

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#1664037 - 04/21/11 07:13 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I feel like people are wondering how shoes were ever tied before velcro.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1664090 - 04/21/11 09:51 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Quote:
Interesting that the Sanderson manual, for all of the tuning sequences, emphasizes getting the M3's correct first, and then setting the M5's and M4's.

EDIT: Not trying to be contrary here. When did the more recent emphasis on setting the M5's and M4's start? Was there a specific writer who shifted the focus to the SBI's, or has there just been a gradual movement in that direction?


Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Jake:

I have wondered how tuning with a ladder of Major thirds (CM3s) became popular! It used to be that tuning with 4ths and 5ths was the norm.

Best I can figure it happened around the time the PTG starting testing with ETDs. And it seems to go with the accuracy that is required by the exam. A deductable error is the same amount of error as would be easily recognizable in the beatrate progression of CM3s.


Jake,

First of all, let's get out abbreviations correct: it is P4 & P5 (not M4 and M5).

Jeff,

You are exactly right about that. The re-introduction of the contiguous thirds (CM3) idea came into popularity beginning about 1980 with the simultaneous introduction of the the first Sanderson tuning device and electronic scoring of the PTG tuning exam.

Dr. Sanderson, in consultation with Bill Garlick RPT who was at that time an instructor at the North Bennett Street school and later at Steinway, identified the (now) well known 4:5 beat ratio of CM3's.

You may be interested to know that Owen Jorgensen had always used the classic 4ths & 5ths type sequence from Braide White's writings. It had become habitual for him, so he saw no need to learn another method. His daily existence included tuning the school of music pianos, including large numbers of Baldwin Hamilton Studio pianos.

The latter frustrated Dr. Sanderson with its irregular scale that simply didn't work very well with a calculated electronic tuning. The CM3's afforded the best solution for Sanderson to aurally verify and correct a calculated tuning.

Jorgensen said that while he immediately saw the value in the use of the CM3's, he never put them into practice because basically, he knew what he was doing with a 4ths and 5ths sequence. The "value" as he put it, was that it served to divide the temperament octave into three very precise, equal parts.

Other tuning experts such as Rick Baldassin RPT and Jim Coleman RPT, jumped on the CM3 bandwagon and began to teach it. Thus, we now have the "Baldassin-Sanderson" temperament sequence to which Coleman's name has also at times been applied.

I had never used the CM3's until well after I became an RPT but learned about them at PTG seminars. By the time I went to my first Steinway training seminar with Bill Garlick in 1986, CM3's were the foundation of my temperament sequence. By that time, I knew that if I fist had the temperament octave equally divided, I could hardly go wrong with the remaining 4ths and 5ths. F3-A3-C#4-F4 were always key pivot points. This worked well for me and Garlick saw that I could execute a flawless temperament every time with great efficiency.

Late in the 1980's, I published my own ET sequence which is very much like Randy Potter's of the present day. After the initial CM3's, one has a choice of tuning either an RBI or SBI thereafter and immediately checking the results.

In 2003, I set out to re-think the entire process in order to help people who wanted to pass the PTG exam. That lead to the "Mid-Range Piano Tuning" article. A few years after that, I hit upon the idea that the two octaves, F3-F4 and A3-A4 were key to perfecting the CM3's. One needed the final F4-A4 M3 as an "outside judge" of the three CM3's below it.

I still suggest that after the initial CM3's, John Travis' sequence of "Up a third, Up a third, Down a 5th" leads to the most available checks and balances as the rest of the sequence is constructed. However, one can really use whatever sequence had become familiar.

You may be interested to know that when I was asked recently to tune a 1/4 Comma Meantone temperament and not really knowing from memory any published method, I quickly decided to tune it from C3-C4. I used the CM3's, C3-E3, E3-G#3 and G#3-C4 to set the parameters of the scale. C3-E3 and E3-G#3 are pure and that leaves G#3-C4 very wide and dissonant. From C3 and E3, I could construct 4ths & 5ths which balanced proportionately (each tempered far more than in ET) but lead to another pure M3. The 1/4 Comma Meantone was indeed easier to construct that way than ET.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1664091 - 04/21/11 09:59 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I cannot imagine tuning a Baldwin/Hamilton studio with evenly progressive CM3s. But then some people don't even like scrapple. I don't understand that either.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1664096 - 04/21/11 10:28 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2007
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
One needed the final F4-A4 M3 as an "outside judge" of the three CM3's below it.


And here lies one of my problems with the CM3 approach. I have very real problems discerning a beat that is this fast (at least on my piano). So I can never really say whether the F4-A4 M3 is "right" or "wrong", compared to the other three. Even C#4-F4 is sometimes difficult for me to discern.

On the other hand: to disregard beat rates and simply grade the CM3s in terms of "progressive sourness" isn't very effective or accurate for me either.

I haven't tuned many pianos, and I'm not trying to bash the CM3 approach either. I'm just saying that as a relative beginner, I can't place the uppermost M3 with great confidence, so unfortunately for me, it feels like a guessing game.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1664114 - 04/21/11 11:26 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21528
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Ron Voy
I'm learning using a C fork at 523.3 Hz and setting the temperament from F3 to F4 (keys 33-45).

If you want to use thirds as a check, you should tune from E3 to E4. There is no reason to restrict yourself to one particular octave when setting the temperament. For that matter, there is no reason to restrict yourself to an octave.
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Semipro Tech

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#1664129 - 04/21/11 11:55 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: BDB]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Ron Voy
I'm learning using a C fork at 523.3 Hz and setting the temperament from F3 to F4 (keys 33-45).

For that matter, there is no reason to restrict yourself to an octave.


Excellent point, BDB. One octave is a good starting point, but a two octave temperament will give you a lot more information to go on. I will very often make corrections in my starting temperament octave as I move up towards the treble. Ideally, in the end, the entire piano is a temperament.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1664516 - 04/21/11 11:14 PM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Mark R.]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
One needed the final F4-A4 M3 as an "outside judge" of the three CM3's below it.


And here lies one of my problems with the CM3 approach. I have very real problems discerning a beat that is this fast (at least on my piano). So I can never really say whether the F4-A4 M3 is "right" or "wrong", compared to the other three. Even C#4-F4 is sometimes difficult for me to discern.

On the other hand: to disregard beat rates and simply grade the CM3s in terms of "progressive sourness" isn't very effective or accurate for me either.

I haven't tuned many pianos, and I'm not trying to bash the CM3 approach either. I'm just saying that as a relative beginner, I can't place the uppermost M3 with great confidence, so unfortunately for me, it feels like a guessing game.


I feel the same. I've had the opportunity to try it on a grand once and it works just as advertised. The F4A4 beats are fast but clearly audible. But on the less than perfect uprights I have the same problem. If I can hear the C#4F4 beats clearly I consider myself lucky. The crucial F4A4 check is not available it seems. On those pianos I do better by just timing F3A3 to 7bps with my watch, and make A3C#4 and C#4F4 progressive.

Not that I would ever tune equally except for the exam (some day I'll take it) of course. smile

Kees

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#1664555 - 04/22/11 12:33 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
To all of the above: you know you have it wrong when you can either hear the F4-A4 beat easily or it is so fast that you can't hear it at all. If you can hear it easily, it is too slow and that means F3 is too sharp. If it is so fast that you can't hear any beat, it means that F3 is too fast. It is as simple as that and very clearly and explicitly said in my ET via Marpurg article.

If you are in doubt, compare again C#4-F4 and then F4-A4.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1664566 - 04/22/11 01:03 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
To all of the above: you know you have it wrong when you can either hear the F4-A4 beat easily or it is so fast that you can't hear it at all. If you can hear it easily, it is too slow and that means F3 is too sharp. If it is so fast that you can't hear any beat, it means that F3 is too fast. It is as simple as that and very clearly and explicitly said in my ET via Marpurg article.

If you are in doubt, compare again C#4-F4 and then F4-A4.

Yes Bill, I understand but my dilemma on crummy uprights is that if everything is right I still can't hear the F4A4 beats. It's not that they are too fast, I just don't hear them.

Maybe I'll just have to focus my brain on them.

Kees

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#1664663 - 04/22/11 06:58 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
To all of the above: you know you have it wrong when you can either hear the F4-A4 beat easily or it is so fast that you can't hear it at all. If you can hear it easily, it is too slow and that means F3 is too sharp. If it is so fast that you can't hear any beat, it means that F3 is too fast. It is as simple as that and very clearly and explicitly said in my ET via Marpurg article.

If you are in doubt, compare again C#4-F4 and then F4-A4.


That doesn't seem very accurate, Bill.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1664664 - 04/22/11 07:05 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: rysowers
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Ron Voy
I'm learning using a C fork at 523.3 Hz and setting the temperament from F3 to F4 (keys 33-45).

For that matter, there is no reason to restrict yourself to an octave.


Excellent point, BDB. One octave is a good starting point, but a two octave temperament will give you a lot more information to go on. I will very often make corrections in my starting temperament octave as I move up towards the treble. Ideally, in the end, the entire piano is a temperament.


F3-G4 is enough for me to refine the temperament. It gives some critical octave checks for the first SBIs and a few more RBI and inside/outside checks later on. It is pretty rare for me to need to adjust any of these notes later on, but sometimes I think I don't get things as stable as I'd like when getting used to a piano.

Very good point about continuing the temperament to the entire piano. 4ths, 5ths and 12ths are available if you know how to use them. But I wonder if those that set the temperament, or even just begin the temperament, with RBIs learn to use them to their full potential.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1664700 - 04/22/11 08:41 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
To all of the above: you know you have it wrong when you can either hear the F4-A4 beat easily or it is so fast that you can't hear it at all. If you can hear it easily, it is too slow and that means F3 is too sharp. If it is so fast that you can't hear any beat, it means that F3 is too fast. It is as simple as that and very clearly and explicitly said in my ET via Marpurg article.

If you are in doubt, compare again C#4-F4 and then F4-A4.


That doesn't seem very accurate, Bill.


It's extremely accurate. There is only one place for each of the five notes to be for them all to be correct and that is why it is virtually infallible.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1664702 - 04/22/11 08:46 AM Re: Tuning Circle of Fifths [Re: Ron Voy]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
If the difference between "can either hear the F4-A4 beat easily" and "it is so fast that you can't hear it at all." is more than 1 cent, then I doubt if all the RBIs can be made to beat progressively.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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