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#1656289 - 04/07/11 12:25 PM The new Clavinova range
jve Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 52
I guess this deserves a thread of its own (posted about this in the musikmesse thread).

http://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/mus...es/?mode=series

The downloadable brochure is quite extensive. There's one line in particular that caught my attention:

"Clavinova produces deep resonances by using piano sounds that have been accurately sampling for their entire length."

Sampling? sampled? ... oh well, sounds promising if what they claim really is true.

-joachim

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#1656346 - 04/07/11 01:48 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8862
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
The CLP-400 series was actually announced at NAMM last January - here is one of the discussions from that time:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1597333/1.html

It looks like there's quite a lot more information about the new models at Messe however.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1656376 - 04/07/11 02:48 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: jve

The downloadable brochure is quite extensive. There's one line in particular that caught my attention:

"Clavinova produces deep resonances by using piano sounds that have been accurately sampling for their entire length."

Sampling? sampled? ... oh well, sounds promising if what they claim really is true.

-joachim



Errr... I think this is just marketing buzz. They claimed this for at least 1 year now for their Clavinova series. See what I found 1 year ago on this site. I would even consider this more than just a little bit "cheating", I don't dare to call it fraud, because they might sue me...

http://www.yamahaclavinova.com/

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#1656411 - 04/07/11 03:58 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4338
Loc: Northern NJ
This is highly deceptive. They're strongly implying no looping when all it is is a slower rate of decay.
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#1656468 - 04/07/11 05:31 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: mucci]
Chris G Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 737
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: mucci
Originally Posted By: jve

The downloadable brochure is quite extensive. There's one line in particular that caught my attention:

"Clavinova produces deep resonances by using piano sounds that have been accurately sampling for their entire length."

Sampling? sampled? ... oh well, sounds promising if what they claim really is true.

-joachim



Errr... I think this is just marketing buzz. They claimed this for at least 1 year now for their Clavinova series. See what I found 1 year ago on this site. I would even consider this more than just a little bit "cheating", I don't dare to call it fraud, because they might sue me...


I don't quite see where the deception is based on those two waveform graphs. What is missing from the comparison is a third graph of the waveform of an actual piano which would make it easier to see which sample was closer to reality.

What I read from the comparison is that the two samples were based on the same recording of a note played on a piano. The recording is longer than the desired sample size so in both cases the engineers fade out the sample so it reaches zero at the end of the sample. This does not require any looping, it does however cause the note to die off prematurely. The second sample has a longer tail because the sample has a longer duration and they do not apply the fade down until later. This still does not mean that they have reproduced the entire tail of a note but the longer sample is an improvement over the shorter one.

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#1656471 - 04/07/11 05:37 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
For me - and I'm not siding with Yamaha - if you can't hear the looping even if you can measure it, does it exist?
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#1656516 - 04/07/11 07:03 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: Dave Horne]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
if you can't hear the looping even if you can measure it, does it exist?

I think this may be the ultimate philosophical question of our time. Can you guys hold on 'til I've consulted my Zen master? confused
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#1656533 - 04/07/11 07:49 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: Dave Horne]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3786
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
For me - and I'm not siding with Yamaha - if you can't hear the looping even if you can measure it, does it exist?
Precisely.
What you hear is all that matters.
What the machine "hears" matters not.

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#1656665 - 04/08/11 02:29 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Sorry... I do not quite get your point of defending Yamahas marketing department...

They claim:
Quote:
Clavinovas achieve the same type of beautiful, lingering tones by using extra long samples - samples recorded until just before the sound fully disappears


Am I mistaken somehow with my English or what... They claim they have samples in their Clavinovas that have full length (right from the beginning until just before the sound fully disappears). For me there is no doubt of what they are saying, it's just that easy.

I mean, they even state this in my own native language:

Quote:
Clavinovas erzielen die gleiche Art von schönen, langanhaltenden Tönen durch besonders lange Sound-Samples – die Töne wurden bis zu ihrem Verklingen vollständig aufgenommen.


For me there is no doubt that this is definitely a massive deception.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with someone actually recognizing looping or not. I can clearly hear the looping in the CLP series when listening to single notes, but I can't recognize the looping when playing live. But this is a completely different matter. They claim they have fully recorded the complete decay of a piano, but they clearly have not.
_________________________
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#1656707 - 04/08/11 05:29 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
egallego Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 138
Loc: Spain
Well, if nobody tested yet the new clavinovas, how can you know if there's looping. I'm seeing weird things here, and it is not the first time.

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#1656713 - 04/08/11 06:12 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
I'm talking about the current CLP-3xx line... Please read my original post.
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#1656734 - 04/08/11 08:15 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: Kawai James]
jve Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 52
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
The CLP-400 series was actually announced at NAMM last January - here is one of the discussions from that time:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1597333/1.html


Thanks for the pointer, for some reason I managed to miss that thread.

-joachim

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#1656746 - 04/08/11 08:52 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: mucci]
Chris G Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 737
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: mucci

And this has absolutely nothing to do with someone actually recognizing looping or not. I can clearly hear the looping in the CLP series when listening to single notes, but I can't recognize the looping when playing live. But this is a completely different matter. They claim they have fully recorded the complete decay of a piano, but they clearly have not.


When you say you hear looping what exactly is it that you hear? Are you hearing a "seam" where the loop ends or are you just hearing a repetition of what you heard earlier?

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#1656760 - 04/08/11 09:46 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: Chris G]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: Chris G
When you say you hear looping what exactly is it that you hear? Are you hearing a "seam" where the loop ends or are you just hearing a repetition of what you heard earlier?


I can clearly identify the point where the attack sample ends and where the looping (an unnatural repeating short cycle) starts. I compared Roland, Kawai, and Yamaha, and Yamaha (at least the current CLP-3xx series) produces the most obvious looping, followed by Kawai where it is barely noticeable, but you can still recognize it. Best is Roland with their SN technology series where the note release is produced not using samples but using specific algorithms.
None of the current hardware DP has full length samples.
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#1656775 - 04/08/11 10:38 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: Dave Horne]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4338
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
For me - and I'm not siding with Yamaha - if you can't hear the looping even if you can measure it, does it exist?

Cause and effect are reversed here - so this is something of a straw man argument. The purpose of viewing samples spectrally is to identify, confirm, and quantify things we can hear, not to contrive and complain about things that we can't hear. I wouldn't bother with DP testing (it's a fair amount of unpaid work) if I and others couldn't hear serious problems with the way the sound is reproduced.

Even if the looping was implemented well enough to the point where you couldn't hear it (exceedingly rare) if you were somehow able to compare the hacked-up looped version to the original full sample, I'm certain you would be able to hear a difference - and I'm certain that in most cases you would prefer the full sample. We unfortunately never get a chance to do this sort of listening experiment, but if we could I believe there would be more generalized dissatisfaction with looping.

That said, I think there is a confounding subtext to this issue that generally goes unspoken. On one hand there are those who use their DPs playing out as a strong hobby or for a living, and on the other there are those who need their DP to be as realistic an AP substitute as possible. The needs and wants of these two groups tend to be quite different, often at odds, creating friction when the two meet in fora such as this.
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#1656809 - 04/08/11 12:00 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
egallego Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 138
Loc: Spain
I guess talking (really beating the dead horse again) about the CLP-300 series in a post that is titled "The new Clavinova range" leads to confusion. Guys, can you keep you anti-looping crusade controlled?

I'm very happy with my CA-93, but eager to try the new CLP-400 series. For one I support healthy competition in the DP scene. CLP-300 was a disappointment for me.

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#1656817 - 04/08/11 12:12 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: egallego]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: egallego
I guess talking (really beating the dead horse again) about the CLP-300 series in a post that is titled "The new Clavinova range" leads to confusion. Guys, can you keep you anti-looping crusade controlled?

I'm very happy with my CA-93, but eager to try the new CLP-400 series. For one I support healthy competition in the DP scene. CLP-300 was a disappointment for me.


??

I was just responding to the thread opener who quoted an interesting piece of the new marketing talk about the CLP-4xx series:

Quote:
"Clavinova produces deep resonances by using piano sounds that have been accurately sampling for their entire length."


He assumed that the new Clavinova has full length samples in it. My answer to him just was that I highly doubt this because Yamaha claimed this also for the old series, as you can see in my quotation.

So no, it's not beating a dead horse, just learning from past experience.

And yes, I'm also very interested in the new series, and it would be great if they would really release a greatly improved model. But even then I wouldn't buy it because I cannot afford buying a new DP every year or so.
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#1656854 - 04/08/11 01:09 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: mucci]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: mucci
.
Am I mistaken somehow with my English or what... They claim they have samples in their Clavinovas that have full length (right from the beginning until just before the sound fully disappears). For me there is no doubt of what they are saying,


There is still room for doubt. The term "just before" in not precise. Is it a millisecond before or 10 seconds before?

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#1656861 - 04/08/11 01:20 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: ChrisA]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Originally Posted By: mucci
.
Am I mistaken somehow with my English or what... They claim they have samples in their Clavinovas that have full length (right from the beginning until just before the sound fully disappears). For me there is no doubt of what they are saying,


There is still room for doubt. The term "just before" in not precise. Is it a millisecond before or 10 seconds before?


It's in fact more like 20 seconds before... If that's "just" before then I'm completely fine with it. wink
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#1656897 - 04/08/11 02:51 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Indeed....well, 20 seconds before the end of a football match is "just before" the end. 20 seconds before the end of a 30 second piano note is "just after the beginning".

Maybe they've changed things on the 400 series - we'll have to wait and see. But I too remember they made a similar claim for the 300 series - which is pretty insulting given what they actually did.

I can hear the looping in my AvantGrand. The decay initially swells and beats and then three or four seconds in it gives way to a very static, dead fade out with what sounds like very very short loops. In principle it bothers me but the rewards with the AG are plentiful and I can just about forgive the looping.

I think for those that say looping is little or no issue they haven't really listened and compared looped/unlooped...once you have identified and tuned in to looping it is pretty hard to miss and is a very unmusical phenomenon. The Nord loops are much longer and at least have a bit of life within the looped segment - perhaps Kawai also has a longer loop. But the Yamaha loop is a very fast cycle.

Steve
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#1656928 - 04/08/11 04:16 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4338
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I can hear the looping in my AvantGrand. The decay initially swells and beats and then three or four seconds in it gives way to a very static, dead fade out with what sounds like very very short loops. In principle it bothers me but the rewards with the AG are plentiful and I can just about forgive the looping.

I think for those that say looping is little or no issue they haven't really listened and compared looped/unlooped...once you have identified and tuned in to looping it is pretty hard to miss and is a very unmusical phenomenon. The Nord loops are much longer and at least have a bit of life within the looped segment - perhaps Kawai also has a longer loop. But the Yamaha loop is a very fast cycle.


- Kawai MP10 -
Attack sample lengths: 2.5,3.0,2.2,1.8,1.7,1.5,1.1,?
Loop sample lengths: 1.4,1.3,0.66,0.83,0.65,0.75,0.65,?

- Nord Piano Grand Lady D (large 78.6 MB) -
Attack sample lengths: 3.0,3.5,3.2,2.3,2.1,1.0,?,?
Loop sample lengths: 2.2,1.9,2.2,2.1,2.2,1.5,?,?

- Yamaha AvantGrand N3 -
Attack sample lengths: 4.4,4.3,3.9,3.5,3.0,2.1,?,?
Loop sample lengths: 0.7,0.67,0.67,0.67,0.56,0.43,?,?


Ranked by attack sample lengths (long to short):
1. Yamaha AG N3
2. NP GLD
3. Kawai MP10

Ranked by loop sample lengths (long to short):
1. NP GLD
2. Kawai MP10
3. Yamaha AG N3

Yamaha seems to have given up on longer loops ever since they started processing them to the point where they sound somewhat static and lifeless. Kawai is almost as bad. IMO loops need to be at least 2 seconds long to have a shot at sounding realistic. The longer the better, with no looping (or some unobtrusive looping once the decay gets reasonably near the noise floor) the obvious goal.

Sorry to be a bore, but if we as consumers don't crab and generally raise awareness about this stuff it will never improve.

</anti-looping crusade>
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#1656952 - 04/08/11 05:15 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 713
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Truth is not that simple. Roland are not using any audible loops yet their samples are not full length. They are either doing it by some clever randomization algorithm or by modeling. There are people though, including me, who think the SN sustain is somehow metallic and lifeless. Of course the reason for that could be other than the usage of non full-length samples. It could be the Roland engineers' taste for sound signature and its corresponding audio processing. In any case full length samples would be better than looped ones and I believe everybody should agree with that. I think the real problem for DP manufacturers is not whether memory is cheap enough for storing full length samples but rather the consequences of that, for example half-pedaling, repedaling, etc.


Edited by CyberGene (04/08/11 05:20 PM)
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#1669958 - 05/02/11 10:48 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: MacMacMac]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
For me - and I'm not siding with Yamaha - if you can't hear the looping even if you can measure it, does it exist?
Precisely.
What you hear is all that matters.
What the machine "hears" matters not.


It seems there are more people on this forum who do claim to hear the shortcomings than those that don't. However, even for those that don't, what we are conscious of hearing is much, much less than we actually hear. Our conscious experience is constructed from a barrage of unconscious sensory input and pre-processing. There are also many people who claim they can't tell the difference between a 128 bit MP3 and a SACD, yet I am convinced that their listening experience is much less satisfying whether they know why or not.

Just because you can't directly pin your finger on something, does not mean that it is not there.

Originally Posted By: CyberGene
In any case full length samples would be better than looped ones and I believe everybody should agree with that. I think the real problem for DP manufacturers is not whether memory is cheap enough for storing full length samples but rather the consequences of that, for example half-pedaling, repedaling, etc.


I think that this observation is right on the money.
The magic of the piano is not 88 sets of strings doing their own thing but the magical blend created in the moment of everything coming together. Not an easy thing to emulate and certainly not made easier by huge samples.

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#1669980 - 05/02/11 11:19 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
In any case full length samples would be better than looped ones and I believe everybody should agree with that. I think the real problem for DP manufacturers is not whether memory is cheap enough for storing full length samples but rather the consequences of that, for example half-pedaling, repedaling, etc.


I think that this observation is right on the money.
The magic of the piano is not 88 sets of strings doing their own thing but the magical blend created in the moment of everything coming together. Not an easy thing to emulate and certainly not made easier by huge samples.


Right! This was often also my observation in the past: I tested several full-length piano sample sets, and striking single keys sounded really great, but then right when I started playing around, it sounded somehow "wrong". It was a real pity, but something was always wrong with all the great software sample libraries. I know most DPs are very limited in sample memory, but I like to play most DPs, whether it's Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, they somehow all sound quite "good enough" to me and playable. That was mostly not the case with almost all software pianos.
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#1685875 - 05/28/11 03:46 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
Maramice Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 1
Has anyone tried these new clavinovas?
I'm interested in the action and sound on the CLP 470/480.
And if someone has also tried kawais, it would be interesting to know how their (470/480) action/sound are compared to CA 63/93?

Thanks smile

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#1685885 - 05/28/11 04:31 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
I'd suggest marked difference with the new sample set but I'll wait for DPBSD results before claiming that the 400 series is unlooped. Yamaha god bless their little heads do some very strange things from time to time.
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#1685916 - 05/28/11 07:17 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: dewster]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3786
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: dewster
Sorry to be a bore, but if we as consumers don't crab and generally raise awareness about this stuff it will never improve. </anti-looping crusade>
Raising awareness will help only if the right people are aware. A Piano World "crusade" won't do it. No one on this board can set or influence Yamaha's direction. You'd need to take this to Yamaha. I'm not sure how to do that. Do you?

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#1685930 - 05/28/11 08:10 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: Dave Horne]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
For me - and I'm not siding with Yamaha - if you can't hear the looping even if you can measure it, does it exist?


It is an error to think there can be a piano without measurable looping.
Of course it exists. Even acoustic pianos have some measurable amount of looping.

Sound is always periodic, that unavoidable.
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#1685933 - 05/28/11 08:13 AM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: jve]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8862
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Welcome back Peter!

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1686048 - 05/28/11 12:29 PM Re: The new Clavinova range [Re: hpeterh]
jve Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 52
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
Sound is always periodic, that unavoidable.

Sure, pitched sound is periodic by definition, but that doesn't mean that every new period has to be an exact copy of the previous one. For acoustically produced sound it never is, that's the beauty of nature.

-joachim (sorry to be such a bore, the EE in me had me do this :))

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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Questioning the Wisdom of Heavy Actions
by Dwscamel
Today at 12:52 PM
What do you think made you passionate about music/piano?
by Spuds
Today at 11:45 AM
Tune lab question
by RonTuner
Today at 11:32 AM
What IS this song? (And yes, I mean "song"!)
by TwoSnowflakes
Today at 09:35 AM
Kawai Cp200 repair needed
by Walks
Today at 08:52 AM
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