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Page 18 of 93 < 1 2 ... 16 17 18 19 20 ... 92 93 >
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#1649208 - 03/27/11 10:39 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23
Thank you very much Knotty for the names of the secret standards behind 1 JOI 1-13! By the way, I learned about JOI indirectly from you, when you favorited one of Dave Frank's YouTube videos and I then looked at his site; that was a wonderful discovery for me. So thank you very much for that, too.

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#1649216 - 03/27/11 11:17 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
Hi 2 Shlow
Welcome to this thread and I hope you will have a cool time hanging out with us.
Similarly, I got onto JOI when everyone was complimenting Knotty, at the same time lots of people in the Non Classical forum were getting JOI, so I didn't want to miss out.

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#1649256 - 03/28/11 12:53 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
Hi Ten
Well done on A Froggy Day.
This was a difficult song and much harder than the Lesson 1 and 2 songs. Although it is primarily in Bb maj, you will have noticed the modulations into C min and Eb maj. And the syncopation was not easy but you handled it well.
You are playing at a fast tempo for Lesson 3. Did you feel relaxed doing it ? Or did you find that you could swing even better at a slightly slower tempo ?

I agree with Knotty that it doesn't matter if you are reading the notes in the chords. Your brain will still absorb the sounds fine. A chord exists in the context of a progression, and you will internalise the nice ii V I voicings in the JOI tunes.

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#1649377 - 03/28/11 07:47 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> By the way, I learned about JOI indirectly from you, when you favorited one of Dave Frank's YouTube videos

How about that?!

Welcome to the thread! If you'd had the patience to read through the thread, you probably know that the idea is to do a few lessons, up a 5 or so, before digging into other things.

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#1649469 - 03/28/11 11:23 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Hi Ten
Well done on A Froggy Day.
This was a difficult song and much harder than the Lesson 1 and 2 songs. Although it is primarily in Bb maj, you will have noticed the modulations into C min and Eb maj. And the syncopation was not easy but you handled it well.
You are playing at a fast tempo for Lesson 3. Did you feel relaxed doing it ? Or did you find that you could swing even better at a slightly slower tempo ?

I agree with Knotty that it doesn't matter if you are reading the notes in the chords. Your brain will still absorb the sounds fine. A chord exists in the context of a progression, and you will internalise the nice ii V I voicings in the JOI tunes.


Thanks custard, I just found froggy day much more enjoyable than anything so far. I mean I really fell in love with it, while listening to the CD. Not sure about the tempo, I think I probably play it according to how I feel at the time. I'll try slower perhaps and see if the swing is any different. I don't find the syncopation difficult.

I'll just keep going with voicings. What I notice is I'm not totally aware of what chord I'm playing on piano. Compared to guitar where the mental process is:
"F7. OK, where's F? Not that F, use the other F. OK, found F. Now, F what?"
... and by the time I've got there I'm totally sure about what I'm playing.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1649498 - 03/28/11 12:19 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: knotty
>> If you'd had the patience to read through the thread, you probably know that the idea is to do a few lessons, up a 5 or so, before digging into other things.


I have not carefully read the whole thread, but just skimmed most of it and have now gone back to the start to read it all; in any event, I honestly do not know what you mean by "digging into other things" here. As I understand it, I am trying to just do what the text of JOI says to do as I understand it, and have some questions on details that are not clear to me from it.

Another question is that I see that there are a few (not many!) typos in the text, such as such as the 3rd line on page 23 of 1 JOI, which has a b6 instead of a 5th like the parallel passages. Is there an official "errata sheet" somewhere?

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#1649685 - 03/28/11 04:56 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> have some questions on details that are not clear to me from it.
Ask away.

>>Another question is that I see that there are a few (not many!) typos in the text, such as such as the 3rd line on page 23 of 1 JOI, which has a b6 instead of a 5th like the parallel passages. Is there an official "errata sheet" somewhere?
I found one or two in the books, but overall it seemed very accurate.

>> I honestly do not know what you mean by "digging into other things" here
The lessons in JOI give you all you need to start feeling good about improv. By the time you've played and sung all the tunes from lesson 1 to 12, you can start other exercises not described in the books, such as composition and improvisation.

I've told myself that I will try and index this thread so it's easier to navigate for all. I haven't had much time to get to it.


Edited by knotty (03/29/11 12:26 AM)

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#1649688 - 03/28/11 04:59 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>I'll just keep going with voicings. What I notice is I'm not totally aware of what chord I'm playing on piano. Compared to guitar where the mental process is:
"F7. OK, where's F? Not that F, use the other F. OK, found F. Now, F what?"

Ten, playing chords is very much about shapes to me. Also about sounds. So simply doing the voicings exercises as described in the book will help.
Playing a variety of voicings along to the tunes will help you also.

It's really when you break things down to simple concepts that they register. That's why playing the tunes will help you with the composition, and composition will help you a lot with improv. A couple more weeks I think before compositions.

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#1649764 - 03/28/11 06:44 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
Ten
How about writing the chord structure underneath the voicing ? So for the G7 you mentioned earlier, you could write 3 #5 7 b9.
Or as Knotty said, chords are a lot about shapes and altered shapes. You could write down an alternative name for the chord, one that you might find easier for identifying the pattern. The G7 above can be heard as Fmin7 b5.

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#1649767 - 03/28/11 06:50 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
Hi 2 shlow
You mentioned an error in the JOI Solo Pattern. If you are short of time, you can go straight onto Exercise 2 Jazz Hanon, bypassing the JOI Solo Pattern.

I'm on Lesson 24 and like Knotty, I think I've only come across one error.

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#1649952 - 03/29/11 01:08 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23
I certainly agree that there are not lots of errors, but I noticed not just the b6 instead of 5 at page 23 of 1 JOI, but also a consistent error in the third voicings in Lessons 40, 41, and 42 where the 1 3 11 7 9 voicings are actually 1 3 5 7 9. While these errors are easy to spot at my beginner's level, I fear there may be errors I cannot see, especially in the Blues and Tunes, for which there is no objective standard. If others see few errors, too, I guess I should just not worry, though.

I still think it would be good for Dave Frank to put an errata list on his site.

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#1649957 - 03/29/11 01:17 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23
In Lesson 1, unlike the others I have seen, the Blues is in Bb and the JOI Line seems to be in G minor, the relative minor of Bb. Is this oddity on purpose, or is Leaf Line in some sense to be seen as in Bb? (As I recall, the preface says that the Blues and Tunes in each lesson are in the same key.)

I also note that in Lesson 1 Leaf Line ends all 4 8 bar sections on the 5th of Gm, which is like some European folk music as used by Bartok. Is that at all common in jazz? I am used to songs ending on the tonic or 9th.

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#1649989 - 03/29/11 03:33 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: 2Shlow]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
Hi 2Shlow and welcome to the JOI joint. I think the important point is to focus on playing the music and training your ear. I also used to overanalyze everything with my "classical" mindset but it didnt help me to become a better jazz player.

There are many success stories of people having been through this method and there are definitely "objectives standards" when it comes to jazz theory. I wouldnt spend to much time trying to find minor typing errors.

The Jazz tune immitates the chord changes of the famous standard Autumn Leaves. The origianl tune switches from Bb mayor to tis relative minor which explains wjhy the line is in Gmin. I guess the reason is the choice of the composer.

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#1650001 - 03/29/11 04:00 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
custard and knotty: I think what I'll do is write out my own lead sheets for these standards - no music, just words and chords. I'll type big, then pencil in the voicings, and try playing from that. I'm not overly worried about not instantly being able to come up with all voicings I want - but I do see working through this book as an opportunity to get all sorts of things done - getting to know the common standards, reading chords quickly on piano and guitar. So I'd rather do it as I go along.

2Shlow - Autumn Leaves is commonly played in Emin/G and Gmin/Bb. Also Bb is frequenly used in jazz, presumably for the horn's benefit. So there is no particular reason why Autumn Leaves shouldn't be found here in Gmin, though, like you, I'm more familiar with Emin.

With my proof-reader's hat on, I've also noticed some little mistakes in the book, though nothing I couldn't instantly work out. I'm happy to give Dave some feedback if there's to be a reprint/2nd edition.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1650088 - 03/29/11 08:29 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
2Shlow,

>>While these errors are easy to spot at my beginner's level, I fear there may be errors I cannot see, especially in the Blues and Tunes, for which there is no objective standard.
Honestly, I think it doesn't matter. You're right, the error on lesson 40 is obvious. I seem to remember an error in one of the tunes, too. But it doesn't matter. It's just not a big deal. What you're trying to get out of the tunes is to train your ear for how improvised jazz lines may sound like. If you look back in this thread, I've posted my own compositions for several of the tunes. They would be valid, other than not being as good as Dave's. Dave could come up with a new compositions on the spot. So see those tunes are samples. If you think a line would sound better another way, then that is your own preference, and that will come out sooner or later. Look at the phrasing, how lines respond to each other, etc...

Autumn Leaves, I like to play in Bb myself, but the realbook has is in G, so it's probably why it's often played in that key.
In records, it's mostly in Bb.

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#1650740 - 03/30/11 03:35 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23

Thank you to those who have responded to my questions. A further question:

In the sing with masters' solos exercise I find that a typical 3 minute recording has so much material to memorize that I am (at least at this stage of my studies) not really up to remembering the whole thing to sing along by heart (I tend to mix up rifs in different choruses). Perhaps the idea is that we take a chorus or two to learn as a mantra instead of a whole song recording (some recordings are LONG, such as 9:25 for So What on Kind of Blue!)? So meantime, I use Transcribe! to break the songs up into 1-chorus mp3s for study. Am I on the right track in that?

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#1650742 - 03/30/11 03:43 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: 2Shlow]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: 2Shlow


In the sing with masters' solos exercise I find that a typical 3 minute recording has so much material to memorize that I am (at least at this stage of my studies) not really up to remembering the whole thing to sing along by heart (I tend to mix up rifs in different choruses). Perhaps the idea is that we take a chorus or two to learn as a mantra instead of a whole song recording (some recordings are LONG, such as 9:25 for So What on Kind of Blue!)? So meantime, I use Transcribe! to break the songs up into 1-chorus mp3s for study. Am I on the right track in that?



Hi 2Shlow,

I did exactly as you suggested. So far, I found a 16-bar stretch or so, and concentrated on that. The last one, I took a longer stretch but didn't test myself with memorizing it clean, I just sang along with Transcribe.

Now I'm on Skid dat de dat. And I don't know what to do! Any suggestions?
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1650750 - 03/30/11 04:08 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23
I am a beginner myself and in Lesson 3, but I did already break up that 3:07 min song from Lesson 4 into 4 mp3 chunks: 0:44; 0:42; 0:43; and 0:50 to the end. Of course I cannot say if that worked for me yet, as I have not gotten to it. My hunch is that it may be better to work with whole choruses, and not shorter sections, but I could be wrong about that.

I hope we both can get feedback and advice from the more advanced people in the forum.

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#1650759 - 03/30/11 05:03 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: 2Shlow]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 646
Hi. When singing with the master solos, you don't sing with the whole tune: only the solo from the master:)That will cut it way back. With some Lester young solos or Charlie Parker solos that are longer, it's fine to concentrate on one chorus at a time. So for the Louie solos, for example, you can sing the melody at the beginning if you like, but then only Louie's trumpet solo(s).

The banjo solos are a bit difficult to sing with...but you can't do it without smiling:)

I'm looking forward to sharing the recent Dick Hyman and upcoming Lennie Tristano master classes with you guys..

Blessings and keep swingin

Dave

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#1650794 - 03/30/11 06:43 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: davefrank]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23

Thank you for your comments and suggestions, Dave!

I am sure that all are looking forward to your latest master classes. And speaking of the master classes, I found both yesterday and today I could not get the "Eric Dolphy master class with Dave Frank 6/4/10 06/04/10 05:12PM" at

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7442784

to play (just a black rectangle in the middle of the screen with no button to click on to play it, and I tried in both FireFox and IE8. Has it been taken down, or is there some other problem?

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#1650809 - 03/30/11 07:34 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: 2Shlow]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 646
it's working for me today..

DF

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#1650812 - 03/30/11 07:43 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
2Shlow,

Which solo are you singing along too now ?

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#1650816 - 03/30/11 07:55 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: davefrank]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: davefrank
it's working for me today..

DF


Strange, as I just tried it again and no go. Maybe they are blocking to Israel? Some YouTube videos are not available here.

[later]

I just retried again and found that not only NONE of your videos plays from here, but other people's videos do not play either. I guess it may be another new ban on service to Israel.

I am happy you are using YouTube now, Dave! I did get to see the other 4 master classes on Upstream.TV; just missed Eric Dolphy. :-(



Edited by 2Shlow (03/30/11 08:10 AM)

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#1650818 - 03/30/11 07:58 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23

Originally Posted By: knotty
2Shlow,

Which solo are you singing along too now ?


The 31-second third chorus of "Got No Blues" (Louis Armstrong).

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#1650844 - 03/30/11 08:38 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: 2Shlow]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 646
don't worry - it wasn't that good

DF

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#1650862 - 03/30/11 09:08 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: davefrank]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23

Originally Posted By: davefrank
don't worry - it wasn't that good

DF


Bless you for consoling me, Dave! @:-D

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#1650891 - 03/30/11 09:53 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
question: where do you guys get the louis armstrong tracks from? I am struggeling to get that here in south africa

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#1651000 - 03/30/11 12:20 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: 2Shlow]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: 2Shlow


I guess it may be another new ban on service to Israel.



They're probably quite good. Just not holy enough... wink
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1651001 - 03/30/11 12:21 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: saiman]
2Shlow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 23

Originally Posted By: saiman
question: where do you guys get the louis armstrong tracks from? I am struggeling to get that here in south africa


Fortunaely, you can find them at YouTube, use FireFox and DownloadHelper to save the flv file for video (naturally a 1929 version has just photos, not a real video), play them directly in VLC or jetAudio Players, or generate mp3 from the flv file with the free video to audio converter from http://dvdvideosoft.com/ and then use Transcribe! to listen in any key at any speed you like. Many YouTube videos can also be downloaded as mp4, which can be watched and played with directly in Transcribe!

Only Transcribe! isn't free, and it and Andy (its programmer) are so good you will never regret buying it (http://seventhstring.com and http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/MusicTranscribers/ )
and you can download and try it free to be sure before you buy.

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#1651324 - 03/30/11 10:35 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: 2Shlow]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: 2Shlow

Originally Posted By: davefrank
don't worry - it wasn't that good

DF


Bless you for consoling me, Dave! @:-D




lololol so it's taken you no time to work out that Dave is the biggest joke artist !
When you are next overseas, check out the Eric Dolphy one for a laugh. The bird noises are pretty hilarious.

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