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I see that someone mentioned that there was no "Just for those totally committed to Bach" thread. I thought, "Shouldn't there be?"
So here ya go.
Recently Anthony Tommasini listed his top 10 Western classical composers in a NY Times article. Bach was number 1, as he probably would be on a great many people's lists. Someone commented on the article with an opinion that Beethoven is the greatest human composer, though, because Bach had to be something more than human, and Mozart must have had some alien ancestry at least.
In a novel by Greg Bear, the fabric of the local universe is coming apart, and it is repaired by Mozart, who improvises music that puts everything back into harmony and literary saves the world. That body of music becomes the works of JS Bach, who in that story had never really existed; the new reality is adjusted to include him, so that after the repairs he's part of history.
Well, I can't give a much better explanation for Bach than that.
Though to most of us Bach is the beginning of something great, it is said that composers from an era prior to that of Bach's did some amazing things as well with polyphony that even Bach might've found difficult to fathom. I'm not a music major but I heard this from one who goes to a reputed music school, so I'm assuming there is some truth to it. So while we know only of Bach from that period as being as influential as he's been, there seems to be a wealth of music that we have little access to or is little known to people.
Bach is even to me a greater Composer than Beethoven. And I love Beethoven, if you didn't know. Bach, however was unpopular in his time for using the uncommon fugue. I feel he could fathom the depth of the previous Gregorian composers in the sense that his Art of Fugue, used motif's and compositional techniques similar to that of his previous generation.
Actually to revise my previous statement, they are in my heart, equals.
Working On: Beethoven-32 Variations in C minor Beethoven- Opus 109
Mark C, I didn't actually say that I was totally committed to Bach myself, only that I thought there should be a thread just for him! (In fact, I never even claimed to be "totally" devoted to the other one, though I am exceedingly devoted to him indeed. That was Kathleen's phrase!) I might be more committed to him if I were better at playing his music. I could echo that "If I could play Bach, I would." I do try sometimes, of course.
(What's "big o' me" is more that I pursue my devotion to That Other Composer year after year while sticking with my husband, who sometimes feels a little left out, poor guy.)
Liszt85, yes, of course there was marvelous polyphonic music before Bach, and as a Renaissance-not-Baroque lutenist I've spent a lot of time with fine examples of it. Bach didn't appear out of a vacuum-- though I do like that alternate-world theory.*
Josh P, I'm not sure what you mean by "Bach, however was unpopular in his time for using the uncommon fugue." Anybody got enlightenment about that? I can't imagine fugues being uncommon at that time. All I know is that I've read that Bach was considered old-fashioned toward the end of his life when the trends were moving toward the Classical style. Yet Bach wrote some new-fangled Rococo-type stuff too.
I really don't know enough about Bach to hold forth further, so I will shut up now and hope to learn from others.
Elene
*and I can't help thinking, whimsically, that if Bach was from another world, he got a good start on a breeding program with humans....
Not only am I totally committed to Bach, I'm totally de-committed to almost every other Baroque composer. It's as if each period were allotted a certain amount of greatness, and Bach sucked it all up.
By the way, for anyone interested in exploring the incredible universe of the 200+ Cantatas, I discovered some great resources. This is all you need:
2. An opinionated grading of the Cantatas with commentary: http://www.classical.net/~music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/rateindx.php
3. The fantastic Suzuki recording of the complete Cantatas is available from naxos.com; for $20/year you get streaming access to all 47 disks (as well as 1000's of other recordings, of course): http://www.naxos.com/
You know, I've read some of the Chopin thread but it is so long and I'm so new I have always felt I could never "catch up".... so I've hesitated to join in. (of course the fact that I can't play ANYTHING other than the most simplified versions of Chopin just adds to this feeling of .....do not enter )
But Bach! I adore Bach - and bless his soul, when he wrote for his students he really did write things that early learners can play! I was introduced to Bach in high school when our concert band played Fugue à la Gigue in G major and Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring. I fell in love with the intertwining threads of the Fugue and Jesu was one of the first pieces to really give me a profound sense of being one with music.
I'm delighted that I can slide in at the start up of this thread and participate in this "Bachanalia" !
18 ABF Recitals, Order of the Red Dot European Piano Parties - Brussels, Lisbon, Lucern, Milan, Malaga, St. Goar Themed recitals: Grieg and Great American Songbook
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
Bach, however was unpopular in his time for using the uncommon fugue.
Is that right? The uncommon fugue...that's a new one on me. Perhaps I'll look that up (you may want to open a book or two while you're at it as well...just sayin').
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
The Greg Bear novel: It started out as two books, The Infinity Concerto and The Serpent Mage. An evil mage created a world full of magical beings, but that world is now falling apart, threatening our own. A young man with special abilities is recruited to save the day. Meanwhile, a group of humans, having been ripped away from our world, have been living in the other one, and these include Mozart and Mahler (time is different there). Music is the force that saves the universe in the end.
A while back, these two volumes were melded into one and reissued. I looked through the new version and could not find that reference to Bach, which had intrigued me so much on my first experience of this story. Maybe Bear decided it was silly and took it out. Maybe I dreamed the whole thing-- though I am so unimaginative about fiction writing that this seems extremely unlikely! Or maybe I simply failed to find the right bit while skimming through.
Anyway, Mozart saving the world through the power of his music to organize reality-- I like it. Mozart spontaneously inventing the music of Bach-- not so much!
(Bear has been responsible for a lot of solid, "hard" science fiction, but this work is sophisticated fantasy, more sophisticated than I've made it sound here.)
The Greg Bear novel: It started out as two books, The Infinity Concerto and The Serpent Mage. An evil mage created a world full of magical beings, Elene
I've read most of Greg Bear's books and didn't know he wrote fantasy. I prefer the hard SciFi.
I hope this thread takes off. I tried to start one a while ago and it withered away.
I'm currently polishing F# prelude and fugue WTC book 1. My teacher is helping me really hear all the voices, (play 2 at once, sing one, etc.) and he's allowing me to decide how to weave them. I'm starting to get that blissful feeling when it begins to come together. My last hurdle is sustaining those trills while striking other notes with the same hand and still bringing out the subject. I'm trying to add trills in all the appropriate places for consistency. There are a few really trickly ones.
Did I mention I adore Bach? The music is so interesting and emotionally satisfying.
Not only am I totally committed to Bach, I'm totally de-committed to almost every other Baroque composer. It's as if each period were allotted a certain amount of greatness, and Bach sucked it all up.
Hmmm... interesting. I wouldn't say Bach sucked it all up, but pretty damn close. I love a lot of Baroque music -Vivaldi's sacred choral works are incredible, especially if you only know the gazillion concertos- but to me, all those composers are mere foothills next to Bach.
That said, Handel's oratorios can really pack a whollop of genius, though I cannot say that I've ever been attracted to the operas. Beethoven held Handel in higher esteem than Bach -if history reports this correctly- and it would be interesting to know Beethoven's reasons. I certainly wouldn't want to argue the point with him.
I'm currently polishing F# prelude and fugue WTC book 1. My teacher is helping me really hear all the voices, (play 2 at once, sing one, etc.) and he's allowing me to decide how to weave them. I'm starting to get that blissful feeling when it begins to come together. My last hurdle is sustaining those trills while striking other notes with the same hand and still bringing out the subject. I'm trying to add trills in all the appropriate places for consistency. There are a few really trickly ones.
As soon as someone mentions this fugue, the first thing I think of is: there are those trills with other notes in the same hand. In Beethoven I think you can get away with "incorporating" those extra notes into the trill, so that the extra note is struck instead of one of the trill notes. Is that what you're doing here?
-J
p.s. I've been recently thinking that my next Bach will be C# major and C# minor, Book I.
Not only am I totally committed to Bach, I'm totally de-committed to almost every other Baroque composer. It's as if each period were allotted a certain amount of greatness, and Bach sucked it all up.
Hmmm... interesting. I wouldn't say Bach sucked it all up, but pretty damn close. I love a lot of Baroque music -Vivaldi's sacred choral works are incredible, especially if you only know the gazillion concertos.... That said, Handel's oratorios can really pack a whollop of genius....
And let us also not forget (quoting from Harold Schonberg's "The Great Pianists"), as perhaps a lesson on how people can be wrong in their own time, at least according to us, that Bach "was known in Germany as the greatest of organists, the most brilliant of clavierists, and a composer second only to the mighty Telemann."
I'm currently polishing F# prelude and fugue WTC book 1. My teacher is helping me really hear all the voices, (play 2 at once, sing one, etc.) and he's allowing me to decide how to weave them. I'm starting to get that blissful feeling when it begins to come together. My last hurdle is sustaining those trills while striking other notes with the same hand and still bringing out the subject. I'm trying to add trills in all the appropriate places for consistency. There are a few really trickly ones.
As soon as someone mentions this fugue, the first thing I think of is: there are those trills with other notes in the same hand. In Beethoven I think you can get away with "incorporating" those extra notes into the trill, so that the extra note is struck instead of one of the trill notes. Is that what you're doing here? -J
No. I'm working with a Henle urtext and am attempting to play it exactly as written: trill, then while continuing to trill, add the note. If you practice it very slowly, it works. I just have to be careful that I bring out only the subject right after adding that note. I don't have the score here at work, but the hardest one for me is near the end because the fingering is tricky.
Not only am I totally committed to Bach, I'm totally de-committed to almost every other Baroque composer. It's as if each period were allotted a certain amount of greatness, and Bach sucked it all up.
Scarlatti and Handel will appear in your nightmares from now on...
There are oodles of other composers in the Baroque Period who are awesome, too: Telemann, Purcell, Vivaldi, Corelli, Rameau...
This comment comes from someone who thinks J.S. Bach is the greatest composer of all time.
There are oodles of other composers in the Baroque Period who are awesome, too: Telemann, Purcell, Vivaldi, Corelli, Rameau...
Hmmmm... Telemann "awesome"? Please give some examples. And (from the other thread)... some of Chopin's preludes "just plain awful"? Please give one example.
We might be on different aesthetic planes, at least in some respects.
Not only am I totally committed to Bach, I'm totally de-committed to almost every other Baroque composer. It's as if each period were allotted a certain amount of greatness, and Bach sucked it all up.
Hmmm... interesting. I wouldn't say Bach sucked it all up, but pretty damn close. I love a lot of Baroque music -Vivaldi's sacred choral works are incredible, especially if you only know the gazillion concertos- but to me, all those composers are mere foothills next to Bach.
That said, Handel's oratorios can really pack a whollop of genius, though I cannot say that I've ever been attracted to the operas. Beethoven held Handel in higher esteem than Bach -if history reports this correctly- and it would be interesting to know Beethoven's reasons. I certainly wouldn't want to argue the point with him.
Beethoven admired Handel for he effects he achieved. I suspect Beethoven did not know many, if any, of JSB's greatest choral works, such as the Mass in b, or the St. Matthew Passion. Mendelssohn had to revive many of these.
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
Yeah...I'm not so sure about "awesome", but he WAS the better known (and more popular) composer during their lifetimes. I completely agree, by the way, that the Chopin comment(s) were absolutely ridiculous.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
Not to take anything away from Bach (not that you could anyway) but there's so much Baroque music to love. An all-time love of mine is Heinrich Biber. The string music particularly, because he was a violinist. The immensely imaginative and affecting string sonatas, the "Battalia," the "Pauernkirchfahrt," the Requiem. Definitely worth more than just a listen, if you don't know his music already.
(I don't know as much about JS as I should, but I have PDQ's biography pretty much memorized. You're so lucky I'm not there with you in person because I wouldn't be able to stop myself from recounting one music history gag after another.)
I LOVE singing Handel and I don't think Bach sucked away any of his greatness.
Not only am I totally committed to Bach, I'm totally de-committed to almost every other Baroque composer. It's as if each period were allotted a certain amount of greatness, and Bach sucked it all up.
Scarlatti and Handel will appear in your nightmares from now on...
There are oodles of other composers in the Baroque Period who are awesome, too: Telemann, Purcell, Vivaldi, Corelli, Rameau...
This comment comes from someone who thinks J.S. Bach is the greatest composer of all time.
Just want to mention Zelenka in this regard - his music is some of the most interesting of his time. I believe Bach was an admirer of it, too.
Here's a little sample - the harmonic movement takes some unpredictable directions...
Beethoven admired Handel for he effects he achieved.
Which stifled the efforts of English composers right up to the end of the 19th century.
Quote
I suspect Beethoven did not know many, if any, of JSB's greatest choral works, such as the Mass in b, or the St. Matthew Passion. Mendelssohn had to revive many of these.
Beethoven would certainly have known the WTC, and I suspect he may have at least examined some of the scores of Bach's larger choral works.
Mendelssohn's revival was certainly a labour of love, though it was primarily the general public which benefited. Prominent musicians before Mendelssohn had always known and appreciated the worth of the Bach choral works (to varying degrees of course), but that was about the extent of it. We owe Mendelssohn quite a debt of gratitude.
Many years ago when I was more enthusiastic about pipe organs than I was about the piano, one of the organists taught us the following words to the tune of the well known chorale predude "Wachet Auf, Ruft uns die Stimme". It does contain quite a number of organist jokes and references.
(to the countermelody) We all can play the organ, organ Every so clean and brightly We play the six sonatas, natas Ever so clean and sprightly We do not employ the swell expression shades To do so is of course forbidden We use as foundations Our flutes and mutations And this we hee-ee-eed To play the cantus fermus on a ree-ee-eed (da da da etc imitating a very nasal reed stop)
(to the chorale tune itself) J S Bach we do adore thee We hope our playing does not bore thee We take these things so seriously We practice every day In the appointed way V..e..r..y... s..l..o..w..l..y Don't use the box like Virgil Fox We take these things so seriously
Seems appropriate to contribute this ditty to this thread.
Anyone care to make up a corresponding one for pianists?
A perennially hopeful amateur! Pianos: Boston GP178, Currently attempting: Bach: WTC I/1,5;II/12; Chopin Polonaise in A; Etude 10/5; Brahms Op 118 No 2 Intermezzo in D; Scarlatti Sonata L23.
I've always loved Bach, even before I knew anything about him or about music.
I did my doctoral project on the last two Bach cello suites (lecture recital and dissertation), and I'm currently working my way through the WTC, learning and memorizing one set at a time and then recording it (progress so far is on my blog).
Wow, that's an impressive project, to learn and record the whole WTC, especially to memorize it. And especially for someone whose first instrument was not the piano.
(That question about why Bach had so many kids... it was the alien breeding project, I already told you!)
Joking, how could I not be? Though I do know quite a few conspiracy theorists who might go for it....
Bach's skeleton was exhumed in the last few years-- I don't understand why they did that-- and he appeared to be quite human.
Today's Performance Today had an interview with Murray Perahia, who discussed Bach, Chopin, and the connections between them, and gave some stunning performances.
Wow, that's an impressive project, to learn and record the whole WTC, especially to memorize it. And especially for someone whose first instrument was not the piano. Elene
Actually, my first instrument was the piano -- I have come back to it after many years of not playing.
Something I find unique to Bach's works is that despite feeling awkward, they are pretty much the only thing that helps me to keep my accuracy up. If Bach is not a part of my current repertoire then I usually run into issues. Anyone else feel this way?
I'm going to do my best to help keep this thread alive. If Chopin lovers can do it, so can we!
I just had my lesson and my teacher was pleased overall with the F# major fugue. There are still some nuances to work out such as bringing out more of the bass voices and better phrasing in the left hand. A few places need more legato in the RH - difficult because of my small hand size. There are also two or three notes that slipped my notice and I am letting go of them too soon. The trills are coming along but still not smooth when up to tempo. My final tempo on the fugue is about 96 MM and that is going well except for those awkward trills. (Prelude is 104).
New idea for me: trills don't have to be played fast to sound good. I'm slowing them down and playing with more relaxation and the results are more pleasing. Studying each trill so it matches the others was a new idea for me. Exactly 7 notes per trill.
New idea for me: trills don't have to be played fast to sound good. I'm slowing them down and playing with more relaxation and the results are more pleasing. Studying each trill so it matches the others was a new idea for me. Exactly 7 notes per trill.
I agree with this...a lot of the speed of the trill has to do with the tempo of the piece. A really fast trill for a moderate or slow tempo doesn't work. I'm not familiar with that particular Fugue though and if that concept applies there. Is that what you're talking about with the trills?
The reason I started my WTC project was in lieu of playing etudes -- I figured that at the least I would get a physical workout and in the process learn some great music. It definitely has helped my technique.
The thing about Bach is that you can always refine your performance, and there are infinite ways to play each piece. My goal for each P&F set has been to get the point where I can play it fluently from memory and record it without any major glitches. At that point, I move on, even though it's certainly not a definitive interpretation.
There are some I learned but didn't record, and I want to go back and redo those at some point. It will be interesting to see how quickly they come back compared with how long it takes me to learn one from scratch (averaging about 6 months for the latter process these days).
I also haven't tried learning more than one at the same time, which might be interesting -- though perhaps confusing.
I mentioned this in another thread somewhere, but it fits well here, too. i had a wonderful piano theacher when i was much younger and she said that in addition to whatever other pieces I was playing I should alwyas have a Bach piece going. I think she also thought there should be one modern piece, and then whatever else to keep yourself balanced, but Bach was a constant.
I agree with this...a lot of the speed of the trill has to do with the tempo of the piece.
My teacher said my trill sounded lke a doorbell. That did it!
Quote
A really fast trill for a moderate or slow tempo doesn't work... Is that what you're talking about with the trills?
As far as trill speed is concerned, yes. But, as I mentioned above, there are additional notes to play with the trilling hand, after the trill is started. That's hard to do but I'm making progress.
Originally Posted by leemax
...I had a wonderful piano teacher when i was much younger and she said that in addition to whatever other pieces I was playing I should alwyas have a Bach piece going.
New idea for me: trills don't have to be played fast to sound good.
That's right. The key is to make them musical. So often with Bach ornaments are simply an extension of the line itself rather than ornamentation. I once had a very famous pianist/teacher tell me in a masterclass that my ornaments were the most musical she'd ever heard and used me as an example in regard to listening/playing ornaments musically. Granted, she was clearly full of it, but the point is to think of them in a natural, musical way, which far too many with Bach don't seem to do.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
BTW....since I never felt really happy doing Bach ornaments, I got this real big BOOK on ornamentation, by Frederick Neumann ("Ornamentation in Baroque and Post-Baroque Music, with Special Emphasis on J.S. Bach"). I read it.
When my students are ready, I make sure they get a steady diet of Bach. They play at least one Bach piece per year.
once a year???? Is this may be a typo? if so, what composers do your students play then or, how many pieces a year?
I am never without a Bach piece to work on.. In fact I think all of my teacher's students suffer the same, no matter what age or level. It has done marvels to my technique. It took me a while to adapt to this teacher's style: sing the left hand or individual voices and wherever indicated, legatississimo sans pedal until the piece is nearly performance ready. It is NOT easy to do, but, I think, it has done me a lot of good. Plus I really enjoy the music. Each piece is like a treasure chest no matter how humble.
When my students are ready, I make sure they get a steady diet of Bach. ....
In fact I think all of my teacher's students suffer the same, no matter what age or level.
It think it is important to consider the student and their maturity before assigning Bach. It shouldn't be automatically crammed down the throat of every student. I was introduced to Bach through the 2 part inventions when I was a girl and I really hated them. I thought they were boring. As a result, I avoided Bach for decades. It wasn't until I was introduced to WTC and the Italian Concerto as an adult that I began to appreciate what Bach had to offer. I'm head over heels in love with Bach now.
It think it is important to consider the student and their maturity before assigning Bach. It shouldn't be automatically crammed down the throat of every student. I was introduced to Bach through the 2 part inventions when I was a girl and I really hated them. I thought they were boring. As a result, I avoided Bach for decades. It wasn't until I was introduced to WTC and the Italian Concerto as an adult that I began to appreciate what Bach had to offer. I'm head over heels in love with Bach now.
There is plenty of Bach music that precedes the inventions in terms of complexity: the Anna Magdalena notebook, the short preludes and some other pieces that I don't recall any longer. I am not a pedagogue, so I can't comment on what to do if a kid does not like Bach.. I was not given a choice and I frankly think that Bach is a pillar of classical music training and education, and thus unavoidable. But I could be biased by my own experiences: I always had to do an Etude, a Bach piece and one or 2 romantic or later pieces, of difficulties commensurate with my progress/level.
BTW....since I never felt really happy doing Bach ornaments, I got this real big BOOK on ornamentation, by Frederick Neumann ("Ornamentation in Baroque and Post-Baroque Music, with Special Emphasis on J.S. Bach"). I read it.
It didn't help.
Really? I just wanted to buy it the next time I go to Sydney. Why do you think it didn't help?
I also, at this point in my musical career, always have a Bach piece that I am working on. I think Bach is great, and so my teacher and I both agreed that I should always be playing some Bach (in other words, it was not forced on me, but I just love to play it)!
Working On:
BACH: Invention No. 13 in a min. GRIEG: Notturno Op. 54 No. 4 VILLA-LOBOS: O Polichinelo
....since I never felt really happy doing Bach ornaments, I got this real big BOOK on ornamentation, by Frederick Neumann ("Ornamentation in Baroque and Post-Baroque Music, with Special Emphasis on J.S. Bach"). I read it.
It didn't help.
Really? I just wanted to buy it the next time I go to Sydney. Why do you think it didn't help?
I was just being stupid there.
Sure, it helped, and I think it's an excellent book. But I just meant I still wasn't playing Bach the way I'd like to -- and I don't think we can blame that on the book.
I've loved Bach ever since I can remember. The original idea to take up piano again, in spite of my childhood piano lesson debacle, was in order to experience Bach from the inside, to know his work to the level of detail that a performer experiences.
I was listening to the classical music station in the dark one night, and got caught up in a semi-dream while hearing Angela Hewett play one of the French Suites, and the prospect of having chunks of Bach embedded in my brain and coming out from my fingers felt like the most compelling idea I'd run across in ages.
Please step aside. You're standing in your own way.
I have a major achievement to report. Today I played through my first Prelude and Fugue as a whole piece; the sense of completion is wonderful. I've worked on the 2 parts, and the practise-fragments that make up the 2 parts for a while, but today I decided to play right through at tempo. Such an interesting experience that as soon as I finished the fugue I couldn't resist playing the Prelude again, then fugue, then prelude, fugue... Very addictive!
Not so many years ago, if you had told me that I would be able to play a Bach fugue on the piano I would NEVER have believed it. It's not performance ready yet, but I know my work is straight-forward from here. I AM pleased with myself
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
" I got this real big BOOK on ornamentation, by Frederick Neumann ("Ornamentation in Baroque and Post-Baroque Music, with Special Emphasis on J.S. Bach"). >>>
Good heavens... I can't imagine anyone reading that book for kicks! I studied it in graduate school; as an organist, it was useful to some degree. Neumann was a bit of a rebel in his day, promoting such things as trills that began on the main note, not the upper neighbor.
As I learned from a dear professor, sometimes you just have to let your ears be your guide in Bach ornamentation. If it sounds wrong, it probably is. Sure, analyze the piece and perhaps you will find a voice leading issue, but more often than not, your ears will first tell you if something is amiss.
Perhaps you've heard people play who get everything "historically" correct yet forget to engage their ears. I've personally been tempted to recommend a career in musicology to several a performer after hearing the most gruesomely wooden Bach interpretations that were, in one regard, technically correct. Oh, but I digress!
Last edited by Clavier Ãœbung; 04/15/1111:12 AM.
1941 Steinway A-III 1919 Arnold Dolmetsch Harpsichord
I've loved Bach ever since I can remember....in order to experience Bach from the inside, to know his work to the level of detail that a performer experiences...and the prospect of having chunks of Bach embedded in my brain and coming out from my fingers felt like the most compelling idea I'd run across in ages.
Beautifully said. I'm attempting to learn my P&F with a very high level of detail. It is exhilarating and deeply satisfying.
Originally Posted by Canonie
I have a major achievement to report. Today I played through my first Prelude and Fugue as a whole piece; the sense of completion is wonderful...I finished the fugue I couldn't resist playing the Prelude again, then fugue, then prelude, fugue... Very addictive!
I know exactly what you mean. There is something delicious about succeeding in playing all those intertwined voices and making it work. Bach has so much emotion in it too. I completely identify with the addictiveness. I hope my family doesn't mind the repetition but...well, too bad. Congratulations on the achievement!
I have a major achievement to report. Today I played through my first Prelude and Fugue as a whole piece; the sense of completion is wonderful. I've worked on the 2 parts, and the practise-fragments that make up the 2 parts for a while, but today I decided to play right through at tempo. Such an interesting experience that as soon as I finished the fugue I couldn't resist playing the Prelude again, then fugue, then prelude, fugue... Very addictive!
I remember a similar feeling the first time I attempted a sinfonia (c minor). My teacher suggested it, I didn't feel ready and slogged away until one day it occurred to me "Oh, I CAN pull this off!" and it all began to fall into place.
My recent project has been the English suite in F, I've learned the notes to it all and now want to spend two weeks or so going back over the whole thing section by section, practicing it in as many ways as I have time for and experimenting with ornamentation. Then I'd like to make a home recording of it, just to be able to look back on down the road.
I used to be a more romantic pianist and therefore loved Beethoven and Chopin... Only recently did I come to appreciate Bach more and am finishing up the 2nd Partita in C-Minor.
I think it's extremely refreshing to play Bach. Not only does it improve my technique, it clears my mind of a lot of MUDDY music that is typical of the modern age... Bach's use of subtle wit and harmony seems unsurpassed. Each note is specifically placed and has a relationship to other notes... Personally, even I feel that Chopin or Liszt after Bach sometimes is a bit more... well, it's definitely easier.
A romantic piece may just be arpeggios and booming chords but a Bach Fugue... it is difficult in its own right.
I have a major achievement to report. Today I played through my first Prelude and Fugue as a whole piece; the sense of completion is wonderful. I've worked on the 2 parts, and the practise-fragments that make up the 2 parts for a while, but today I decided to play right through at tempo. Such an interesting experience that as soon as I finished the fugue I couldn't resist playing the Prelude again, then fugue, then prelude, fugue... Very addictive!
Not so many years ago, if you had told me that I would be able to play a Bach fugue on the piano I would NEVER have believed it. It's not performance ready yet, but I know my work is straight-forward from here. I AM pleased with myself
Good for you. Congrats.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
Perhaps you've heard people play who get everything "historically" correct yet forget to engage their ears. I've personally been tempted to recommend a career in musicology to several a performer after hearing the most gruesomely wooden Bach interpretations that were, in one regard, technically correct. Oh, but I digress!
Of course, bad performance of Bach isn't limited to people who have taken the trouble to try to play with an awareness of the music's original context.
Thank you gooddog, stores, btb, 1RC It's the Cmin from book one. Who needs finger exercises with a prelude like this! As an adult restarting pianist I'm finding the prelude difficult to get clean enough. I don't know how I'll go getting a piece full of constant passage work like this ready to perform on just the right day. Hope I don't peak 3 days later like last time
I also get to do a 2 part invention and a 3 part (prelude) for the exam - good warm up for the prelude and fugue I hope.
Re addiction to Bach: This morning I've already played my latest favourite invention (13 in Amin) even before my first cup of tea. And if you knew how much I need tea in the morning then you would understand the power of Bach to draw me to the piano while the tea is drawing.
I really really really can't wait to choose another P&Fugue, but I Really have to until after exam, so I'm trying not to even think about it.
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
Top marks Canonie ... congratulations for putting together Bach’s Prelude and Fugue in C minor ... described in my reference book as
“The prelude one of several in toccata style, a good finger exercise for both hands. The fugue, a 3, light, piquant, inviting a toccata touch; a favourite of teachers and students.â€
Here’s how my graphic sees the fugue ... a typical meandering Bach counterpoint between hands.
Regards ... take the day off!! ... and drink more tea.
Hi btb, that graphic must be organ (or harpsichord) - I don't have that sort of coupling option at the end.
Glad to hear that it's good exercise for both hands - that's what I was hoping. Also it happens to be on the syllabus
Didn't take the day off, practised quite a lot today. But I did have plenty of tea hehe.
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
I came across an interesting thought while browsing through C. C. Chang's online book on practicing the piano and thought I'd add it to this thread:
Quote
Remember that we have certain advantages not enjoyed by those past “geniuses†[i.e., Mozart, Beethoven, etc]. They did not have those wonderful Beethoven sonatas, Liszt and Chopin etudes, etc., with which to acquire technique, or those Mozart compositions with which to benefit from the “Mozart effectâ€, or books like this one with an organized list of practice methods. Moreover, there are now hundreds of time-proven methods for using those compositions for acquiring technique (Beethoven often had difficulty playing his own compositions because nobody knew the correct or wrong way to practice them). An intriguing historical aside here is that the only common material available for practice for all of these great pianists was Bach’s compositions. Thus, we are led to the idea that studying Bach may be sufficient for acquiring most basic keyboard skills.
I came across an interesting thought while browsing through C. C. Chang's online book on practicing the piano and thought I'd add it to this thread:
Quote
Remember that we have certain advantages not enjoyed by those past “geniuses†[i.e., Mozart, Beethoven, etc]. They did not have those wonderful Beethoven sonatas, Liszt and Chopin etudes, etc., with which to acquire technique, or those Mozart compositions with which to benefit from the “Mozart effectâ€, or books like this one with an organized list of practice methods. Moreover, there are now hundreds of time-proven methods for using those compositions for acquiring technique (Beethoven often had difficulty playing his own compositions because nobody knew the correct or wrong way to practice them). An intriguing historical aside here is that the only common material available for practice for all of these great pianists was Bach’s compositions. Thus, we are led to the idea that studying Bach may be sufficient for acquiring most basic keyboard skills.
[boldface added]
A good example of the bogus logic that clutters that book. It makes me cringe.
Well, yeah, that book needs a major editing job, but the idea that many of the great composers for the piano had in common a keen study of Bach is interesting, isn't it?
Well, yeah, that book needs a major editing job, but the idea that many of the great composers for the piano had in common a keen study of Bach is interesting, isn't it?
It would be interesting if it were true. He doesn't offer any evidence for it at all. As far as I can tell, he just made it up.
The St Matthew Passion was performed here in Melbourne last Sunday, and I attended with some friends. It's 11 years since it was last performed here (in a major concert hall, anyway, with international-standard performers (no offence to the sincere and enthusiastic amateur groups who may have performed it elsewhere around Melb in in the interim)). It really is for me the summit of Western classical music: almost 3 hours of sublime music of constant high emotional intensity. I can think of nothing that comes close to equalling it.
Where would we be without JSB?
A perennially hopeful amateur! Pianos: Boston GP178, Currently attempting: Bach: WTC I/1,5;II/12; Chopin Polonaise in A; Etude 10/5; Brahms Op 118 No 2 Intermezzo in D; Scarlatti Sonata L23.
No, I don't think he made it up. There is historical evidence, for example, that Beethoven studied the WTC extensively. Chopin also practiced Bach and advocated it for his students.
If you give credence to Wikipedia, a few snippets:
Quote
Bach's style went out of favour in the time around his death, and most music in the early Classical period had neither contrapuntal complexity nor a great variety of keys. But, with the maturing of the Classical style in the 1770s, the Well-Tempered Clavier began to influence the course of musical history, with Haydn and Mozart studying the work closely.
and
Quote
Beethoven, who made remote modulations central to his music, was heavily influenced by the Well-Tempered Clavier, since performing it in concerts in his youth was part of his star attraction and reputation.
No, I don't think he made it up. There is historical evidence, for example, that Beethoven studied the WTC extensively. Chopin also practiced Bach and advocated it for his students.
If you give credence to Wikipedia, a few snippets:
Quote
Bach's style went out of favour in the time around his death, and most music in the early Classical period had neither contrapuntal complexity nor a great variety of keys. But, with the maturing of the Classical style in the 1770s, the Well-Tempered Clavier began to influence the course of musical history, with Haydn and Mozart studying the work closely.
and
Quote
Beethoven, who made remote modulations central to his music, was heavily influenced by the Well-Tempered Clavier, since performing it in concerts in his youth was part of his star attraction and reputation.
I realize that many of the greats knew Bach's music. However, Chang's assertion that it was the common source of their technique is simply making things up. Mozart, for example, didn't get to know Bach until late in his career, long after his technique was well-formed. While it is well-known that Liszt was playing the WTC as a kid (I think Czerny had all of his students work on it), I would say that Liszt's technique was far more based on all those endless hours of exercises he did, not on Bach. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Amazing video. I see that the commenters were sniping at each other about whether this was a waste of wood. Can't please anybody. It does support the idea that you can play Bach on pretty much any instrument and it's OK.
Chopin was decidedly grounded in Bach even in childhood; his first teacher loved Bach and made sure he did too. There is an anecdote from later in his life when he is said to have played a long string of WTC preludes and fugues from memory and was asked how in the world he could do it. "You don't forget a thing like that," he replied.
I, on the other hand, cannot remember a thing like that, even assuming that I can manage to play it in the first place. I have a terrible time memorizing music, but especially complex contrapuntal stuff. I suppose to a very able composer Bach's counterpoint must seem so logical and inevitable as to be obvious and easy to remember.
Now Elene, for the question that has been on my mind since this thread started: will anyone communicate with Johann Sebastian??? ( I really mean it in a nice way)
Andromaque, surely somebody has, though I haven't and I doubt I could. Bach did show up a bit in the Rosemary Brown project, but I've only seen one piece representing him, and either I couldn't make sense of it myself or somehow it didn't seem to have come through quite right. Maybe I should take another look at it, as most of the pieces in the Brown repertoire are at least half decent, and many are excellent.
The idea of communicating with Bach kind of terrifies me!
(I would really love to be able to hang out with Rachmaninov.)
Yeah, I know, he must have been able to get along with other human beings, and seems to have been a caring father (from what little I know-- and except for his treatment of poor PDQ! ) I guess he just seems so far beyond anything I can imagine getting in touch with (even Chopin!), just incredibly formidable. That may be a crazy way to look at him, since if he were not so very human, in such a deep way, we could not relate to his music in the way we do.
I think I'll try to get more "on his wavelength" somehow.
I have a patient coming in tomorrow, an organist, who MUST listen to Bach during her treatments in order to relax and heal. She drifts off and has a lovely time. I might have expected that since she plays Bach professionally listening to him would be associated with work and perhaps stress, but no, it's still her great joy.
Hmm... come to think of it, if you had 20 kids (even, or perhaps especially, if they didn't all survive), how relaxed could you be?? I REALLY don't know how Anna Magdalena managed.
Yes. It's been on the forum a few times. I posted it here .
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
An interesting contemporary of Bach's was a guy named Jan Dismas Zelenka - I think he was Czech but the borders didn't mean then quite what they do now. Anyway, less prolific by far and very different in many ways but, if you're a Bach/Baroque fan you should check this dude out. Some spectacular choral music - personal fave is the Missa Dei Filii, ZWV 20. Not that familiar with his instrumental work but I'm told he's got a fair bit of keyboard stuff. I'm kind of saving that for a rainy day. Of course I've got to get through all of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert, Haydn, Mendelsohn and Schumann first....
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
I gave a listen to the chaconne on youtube and realized I haven't listened to much of Bach's solo string music. My teacher has mentioned a few times how I could benefit from imitating the inflections of a good string player... Does anybody have some recommended recordings?
I can't think of specific recordings of the chaconne, but while you're at it try listening to guitarists as well as violinists play it, to open your ears even more. (I've tried it on guitar but never learned it-- a major project.)
I just got the news that the New Mexico Symphony Orchestra, which had been struggling financially off and on for years, has filed for bankruptcy and canceled the rest of its season, with no real prospect of being saved. As of only a few weeks ago, apparently, things were looking pretty good. Totally in shock.
I just got the news that the New Mexico Symphony Orchestra, which had been struggling financially off and on for years, has filed for bankruptcy and canceled the rest of its season, with no real prospect of being saved. As of only a few weeks ago, apparently, things were looking pretty good. Totally in shock.Elene
I just read that the Philadelphia Orchestra, one of the best in the U.S. just filed for bankruptcy protection. Double shock.
Yes, I had heard about the Philadelphia Orchestra earlier-- I don't know if that says more about the condition of the orchestra itself, orchestras in general, or Pennsylvania. Although NM is relatively poor and has a relatively tiny population, we have not been hit as hard by the recession as a lot of places, and I had thought the orchestra was out of the woods for at least a while. But I thought, "If it could happen in Philadelphia, it could happen anywhere." Yep.
My organist patient, the one I mentioned, said that she thought this had to happen to the NMSO and that it would be for the best eventually because the organization was so poorly run that it could no longer be saved, and we need to just start fresh. I suppose something will rise out of the ashes, but I rather doubt that it will be the same type of thing. I have no idea what to expect. We have such a vibrant community of both musicians and listeners, something's got to happen.
(She also said that as far as she knew Bach was rather a difficult person to get along with. But we figure he must have been terribly frustrated by the inability of almost everyone to understand what he was doing.)
I like JS Bach. The Goldberg Variations! Never will be able to play them, but enjoy listening. And Bach's kids weren't too bad either. I especially like Johann Christian Bach. He spent time with Mozart when Wolfgang and Leopold were in London. Anyway, I would like to listen to more of JS Bach's sacred music. Lesser know pieces but of the same quality.
Something I find unique to Bach's works is that despite feeling awkward, they are pretty much the only thing that helps me to keep my accuracy up. If Bach is not a part of my current repertoire then I usually run into issues. Anyone else feel this way?
I do. And to add to Elene's anecdote, according to Lenz, Chopin never practiced his own compositions, and in order to prepare for performances, he played Bach. The WTC was the only music he brought with him to Majorca, aside from the compositions he was working on.
I think part of the reason I only like Bach and Chopin is that both of them have such idiomatic technique. Chopin's technique has a much wider range because it was actually intended for the piano, and intended to explore the expressive potential of the instrument, but I have always felt like the basis of Chopin's technique is in Bach.
That is only part of why I like those two so exclusively, though. They also share a talent for 1) clean, logical contrapuntal lines, 2) expressive dissonance and original form, and 3) awesome climaxes. I can't decide which I like better. Bach clearly excels with the complex contrapuntal methods, but I think Chopin excels with the emotions.
Originally Posted by Elene
I guess he just seems so far beyond anything I can imagine getting in touch with (even Chopin!), just incredibly formidable. That may be a crazy way to look at him, since if he were not so very human, in such a deep way, we could not relate to his music in the way we do.
I would like to meet both of them if for no other reason than to introduce them to each other.
Originally Posted by Elene
Hmm... come to think of it, if you had 20 kids (even, or perhaps especially, if they didn't all survive), how relaxed could you be?? I REALLY don't know how Anna Magdalena managed.
They say a proper sex life is good for your energy supply. And I imagine the older ones helped with the younger ones.
Don't mind me; I talk too much and know too little.
Piano. The link works, and more important, your interpretation works. I must say that your basic approach to Bach is very good, and the only thing I can say about your playing is that you seem to rush a little sometimes in the first part, and the timing could be more precise in some places. But the performers who play Bach according to my expectations of rhythmic and dynamic perfection are Richter and a couple of others. Fine that people keep the thread going. More than half of my collection of classical music is Bach, so I can say that Bach is very important for me.
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