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Then everything must be funny to you because you use the smile and haha endlessly. Often to laugh at your own jokes.

You just continued it. Your comments were the ones that caused the thread to derail long ago. And you continued making them after Gorden asked you to stop. You seem to have forgotten what he said to you earlier in the thread. It makes my comments look like a slap onthe wrist.

Like I said, this is how you were supposed to reply. Totally expected. This is characteristic of this particular malady. Why don't you say something useful instead of continuing a pointless discussion on posting rates (and instead of bringing it up in the first place)? You did make some useful comments and I even agreed with you on a couple of those. Gorden and Mark both came to terms with all that and all seemed well, UNTIL you did what you did. Why don't you start a thread called "Mark_C's posting rate vs my posting rate" and post there whenever you feel the need to vent? I suggest this because this has soured many a past thread and will continue souring future ones. So its best you have your own thread where you could do this.

It stops being speculation when there is empirical evidence of the presence of whatever you accuse people of "speculating" on. If we had a better search function, I would have dug up all those posts I'm referring to just to show you what I mean (though I suspect you already know).

P.S: Stop with the preaching already. I can assure you that most people here think you've derailed the discussion more than anybody else here did (I'm guilty of contributing to that as well by responding to you but sometimes, I just can't refrain from responding to what I think is nonsense). While Mark stayed on topic, you've begun discussing irrelevant stuff like posting rates. Mark's only folly (perceived by people) was that he continued talking about competition politics when the OP clearly didn't enjoy an extended discussion of it, so people felt that discussion was suited for a different thread while maintaining that Mark had useful insights about the subject. However, I'm pretty confident that nobody is interested in the discussion that you've initiated about your posting rate vs Mark's, not in this thread, not in a different thread. Your posting rate is not as important to us as it is to you, you see? Like somebody else mentioned here, you sometimes preach to others about respect. Why don't you start by following some of your own advice?

There's anecdotes, and then there's anecdotes.
IMO the accumulated evidence on flexibility of rhythm in the mazurkas is undeniable, part of it being that we know the mazurkas were played in that way (uniformly, I think) by the great pianists who grew up shortly after Chopin's time, and I don't think they made it up.


Well taken. It can be awful when someone tries to do it and it doesn't work -- although of course that's subjective. You feel Gorden's approaches in this regard didn't necessarily work, I think they worked wonderfully. And BTW, I wouldn't say that one should try to "imitate" Chopin but rather to "get" the style and do what works for him/her -- but I know that this isn't necessarily different than what you meant.


I love how we're seeing discussion of the three different dances that are found in the Chopin "mazurkas." That's quite rare. The only time I've ever seen or heard it before was when I've talked about it in my recitals.

And as far as I know, what you said is right. But, as I'm sure you know, these mazurkas aren't exactly dances, they're stylized dances -- which of course doesn't prove that we should be flexible with the rhythm, but it does mean that the absence of such flexibility in the actual dances doesn't automatically apply to the Chopin pieces. You're right, though, that we can't look to the actual dances for support for the flexibility.


I didn't "fix" it that badly! I'm not talking about having played it in strict rhythm. In fact I think there's a good chance that the rhythms of my mazurkas at that event would be to your liking. It just so happened that those judges leaned toward the more flexible approach that I like also (when I'm not being blinded by trying to be 'good').

P.S. About your post below this one: I think I agree about the mazurka within the polonaise, and maybe that's also part of why the judges didn't find the same problem with my playing of it. I don't want to go through it now in the detail that you mentioned because I'm getting ready to perform it again and that kind of discussion could bollix me up....

Where would you want any more than very subtle fluctuations in the mazurka in the middle of Op.44? Apart from the first beats of bars 169, 173, 228, and 232, which seem natural moments of hesitation, I think a fairly steady rhythm with only slight fluctuations works beautifully. Unless someone told me that I "ought to" play with more rubato, the thought would never occur to me. My take is that it is very beautifully understated music, where the restlessness lies beneath the surface and stays beneath the surface, until m.245.

If someone has seven posts about same thing, that means there is some problem with that poster, something they "don't like about themselves" causing them to repeat this?

Using that criteria, almost every PW poster would have some hidden problem.

When its a personal attack launched against another PW member, and when the issue is something that the other 54,999 PW members are not bothered about and haven't felt the need to raise, yes, it hints at a hidden problem. If you want to continue this silly exchange, feel free to shoot me a PM. Spare these good people, shall we?

So why didn't you PM me? Why did you continue the silly exchange? Why didn't you spare these good people?(Feel free to PM me.)

If I have a hidden problem, maybe I should find a shrink in NYC to help me find it, preferably a person I could relate to with a common interest like piano?

When you say "we know", I am guessing you must mean we know from actual recordings, in which case the pianists involved must at best have been pupils of pupils of Chopin. My understanding is that by 1880 lots of myths and distortions had already set in, and a tradition of Chopin performance had never really been established. Just isolated people like Dubois and Czartoryska, and a couple of pupils in conservatoires doing their best to spread the word. The one guy in a position to exert a big influence was Mikuli, in his collected Chopin edition of 1879-1880, and in his introductory remarks he said:

...Chopin the pianist has remained almost unknown; what is worse, an entirely false impression of him ... has been generally circulated.
...
A virile, noble energy -- energy without rawness -- lent an overwhelming effect to the appropriate passages, just as elsewhere he could enrapture the listener through the tenderness -- tenderness without affectation -- of his soulful renditions. With all his intense personal warmth, his playing was nevertheless always moderate, chaste, refined, and occasionally even austerely reserved.

Unfortunately, in the trend of modern pianism, these fine distinctions, like so many others belonging to an ideal art movement, are thrown into the attic of "superseded ideas" that hinder progress, and a naked display of strength, not considering the capacity of the instrument, not even striving for the beauty of the sound to be shaped, today passes for large tone and energetic expression!

Admittedly he doesn't touch on rubato specifically there, but he still says to me overall, between the lines, "Nearly all of you are playing Chopin wrong nowadays! Stop screwing with my beloved master's music!" A frustrated voice in the wilderness.

My impression of the generation of 1880-1910 was that it was a lot about progress and grandeur and ego and believing that humanity had almost reached the peak of civilization, had barely anything new to learn from science, and was invincible (hence the severe shock of the great Titanic sinking in 1912 - invincible, not). The performer was more important than the music most of the time, and very early recordings reflect that tremendous freedom (in many cases I'd say indulgence!) was the order of the day (with happy exceptions such as the relatively chaste Saint-Säens and Hofmann, and freer but still balanced souls like Rachmaninoff and Paderewski). With none of Chopin's pupils achieving lasting careers to be heard widely beyond his death, and with so much time having passed, and accelerating change in every aspect of society including the arts, I think Chopin performance tradition would have been swamped along the way. If decent quality recording had existed in 1870 and had captured Czartoryska or Dubois playing Chopin, well, that would really be something.

In short, sure I believe Chopin played with distinctive rubato, perhaps especially in some of his mazurkas, but I do not believe that golden era recordings of pupils of pupils reveal very much if anything of the "real Chopin".


Oh, sorry! Yes. And - confession time - I am still annoyed that around 24 years ago an examiner marked down my Chopin Op.64 #3 for not having flexible enough rhythm!

Actually it has occurred to me on more than one occasion that you and our favorite NYC psychiatrist should get together for coffee and have a nice chat !!

Those post numbers really gnaw at you don't they? Get a hobby.

Honestly, why do you care? Maybe he really IS a loon and is laughing constantly at what he reads here and at that which he has to say...SO WHAT??? How, exactly, does that affect you? It doesn't in any way, shape, or form and why doesn't it affect you? Because there's an IGNORE BUTTON. Learn to use it, if you don't like what's presented.

Why do you care that I care?

Never answer a question with a question (unless, of course, you have no sound answer).

Never not answer a question(unless, of course, you have no answer)

Edward Albee might understand the conversation as it has evolved here over the last page or so ....

...or Luigi Pirandello!

Where is this IGNORE button? I can't see it anywhere.

You have to go to a person's profile and click on "Ignore this user"...

It's also reminded me of Elliott Carter. Different clusters of instruments talking to each other within the cluster, without apparent global coordination....

-J

Not just "pupils or pupils of Chopin," but pupils of those who were around at Chopin's time; and moreover, I don't think it depends on who they studied with, because they absorbed what was "in the air" at the time, which is my main point about them. But that's just 'details'; my main answer to what you said is:

TRUE. As I said, it's "part of the 'evidence.'" If it weren't for what you just said, which I realized....

-- It wouldn't be just part of the "evidence," it would be total and slam-dunk, in itself. And....

-- I wouldn't have put "evidence" in quotes.

P.S. To the member or two who wondered: Yes indeed, I find just about everything amusing -- both here and in the world.
Of course there are some things that are extremely serious, and no smiling- or laughing-matter at all. I could hardly be in my field if I didn't think so.
But just about everything else I find a hoot.

P.P.S. to Slatter: Funny that you and I are the only ones who are still on-topic.