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#1664083 - 04/21/11 09:28 AM Digital piano and neighbours
Tar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 296
Loc: Munich, Germany
Some months ago my lovely Roland HP-207 managed to set off my neighbour because I was playing it very late at night with my headphones on. However, the clicking sound carried through the wooden floor and both the music and her annoyance seemed to reach its respective climax simultaneously. Not a fun experience to be shouted at for fives minutes in incomprehensible German, and when she realised that she wasn't getting through (well, I could sense her feeling in every booming syllable), abusive English ensued!

Anyway, in attempt to solve the problem I got myself a tiling array of anti-noise-anti-vibration washing machine pads. It helped, she said, but not nearly enough.

The thing is I get home really late in the evening so the only time I get to play is usually past 10 pm. Does anybody have other suggestions? I happen to be moving to a new apartment soon (same story, wooden floor) and would like a more amicable relationship between my neighbour and my piano.

Thanks so much!

Tar
_________________________
Tar Viturawong
Amateur composer and pianist
Known on YouTube as pianoinspiration
verbis defectis musica incipit

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#1664084 - 04/21/11 09:35 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
kurtie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 207
Angry neighbours and acoustic pianos are (sadly) associated sometimes, but having problems with neighbours with a digital piano when using headphones, is a novelty for me.

I would suggest some kind of rubber mat under the stand where your keyboard rests to avoid vibrations going through the floor. Structural transmission of sound is hard to avoid with a massive acoustic piano, but it should be a lot easier to achieve in your case.

Edit: Have you checked the sound that your neighbour can hear? May be a case of oversensitive neighbour?


Edited by kurtie (04/21/11 09:37 AM)

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#1664085 - 04/21/11 09:39 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Wow! I always thought German homes were so well constructed - such thick stone\cement\brick walls.

You could switch to an acoustic piano for a week, give her the full treatment, and then switch back to the digital. smile

Is your piano located over her bedroom? Could you relocate your piano to another room?

This is an amazing story.
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#1664095 - 04/21/11 10:24 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Michael Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 361
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
That's hilarious!!!! My wife complain about the exact same thin with my electric! My electric is in a room directly above the master bedroom. I would practice late at night (with headphones) but she could her the keys. She said it sounds like I'm hitting something with a hammer......I don't think I'm that bad!

The room with the electric has carpet! I remedied the situation by backing the keyboard away from the wall and playing a touch lighter. You could try putting additional rubber pads between the keyboard and stand AND pads between the keyboard and floor. I'd make sure that no part of the keyboard or stand touches a wall. If you are playing directly over her bed, move the keyboard to another spot!

Good luck!
_________________________
Piano obsession started November 2010.
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#1664099 - 04/21/11 10:38 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Saul Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 743
Loc: Banned
The only complaint I get from my neighbours is why I don't play more often...
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http://www.musicalpaintings.net

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#1664310 - 04/21/11 05:12 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Tar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 296
Loc: Munich, Germany
Generally if there's any specific material than can really do the job I would love to grab hold of it. A generic "mat" doesn't seem to work.

@kurtie: I already have pads that are supposed to reduce noise from the washing machine underneath my piano (I don't know what this says about my playing... will this turn into another musician's joke? "Q: What's the difference between a digital piano and a washing machine? A: You can turn down the washing machine.") Apparently she's one of these people who "listen to the silence" so I guess her hearing must be exceptionally keen. But I think deafer ears than hers would hear it, too. I found this out the other day because when I was recording a video the clicking noise ended up a lot more audible than the music.

@Dave: If I did that I probably would have got thrown out of the building for good wink (With the current level of resentment I was already threatened a tip-off to the landlord!) It is unfortunately right above her bedroom... but I have no idea about the new place I'm moving into. I guess best would be to check out the flat below me and try out a mutual-exclusion policy.

@Michael: Alas I am aware that I'm a rather heavy-handed pianist (have always been) I can even point out the very music that set her off: this video from 4:55. (Of course this time she didn't complain otherwise I wouldn't've finished recording!)

@Saul: A mark of a fine musician smile
_________________________
Tar Viturawong
Amateur composer and pianist
Known on YouTube as pianoinspiration
verbis defectis musica incipit

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#1664317 - 04/21/11 05:22 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7133
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Tar
Some months ago my lovely Roland HP-207 managed to set off my neighbour because I was playing it very late at night with my headphones on. However, the clicking sound carried through the wooden floor and both the music and her annoyance seemed to reach its respective climax simultaneously.
Tar


Tar,

My experience with Rolands is a thumping rather than clicking sound. I think the only way you'd get clicking is if you play with a lot of finger curl and long fingernails.

To size up the thump, play your 207 with the power off (no headphones of course). See what you think.

Altering touch on a digital is nothing more than changing the volume setting. You could play around with that. The higher the volume level selected, the less thump you'd probably make as you adjust your touch to fit the sound level you're comfortable with. If you try it out wearing your cans, you'd want a second person to listen for the thump.

I agree with Kurtie's assessment of the structural transmission of sound. Make sure the console is not touching the wall and put thick chunks of rubber under all points that it comes in contact with the floor.
_________________________
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The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1664334 - 04/21/11 05:40 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: turandot]
Tar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 296
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: turandot


My experience with Rolands is a thumping rather than clicking sound. I think the only way you'd get clicking is if you play with a lot of finger curl and long fingernails.



Actually, you're absolutely right! It's a thumping sound. That word just slipped from my mind...

Quote:

Altering touch on a digital is nothing more than changing the volume setting. You could play around with that. The higher the volume level selected, the less thump you'd probably make as you adjust your touch to fit the sound level you're comfortable with.


The thing is that volume compensation does not compensate for momentum. The sound a real piano (and the Roland) made with a faster stricken "thump" is qualitatively different than that from a gentler touch. Also, forcing myself to play with gentler touch also interferes with the momentum of the arms that follow natural gravity when landing on the key, so loud-and-fast octave passages are hard played like this. I had already done the very experiment you suggested, it sounded ghastly!!
[/quote]

Quote:

I agree with Kurtie's assessment of the structural transmission of sound. Make sure the console is not touching the wall and put thick chunks of rubber under all points that it comes in contact with the floor.

Right now it's standing around two inches from the wall and the pad (I'm not sure if it's all rubber but it must have a large percentage of) is around 1.5 cm thick. Apparently this hasn't worked. I don't want to mount my piano on a six inch rubber block though ... I would need a higher stool for a start! :S
_________________________
Tar Viturawong
Amateur composer and pianist
Known on YouTube as pianoinspiration
verbis defectis musica incipit

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#1664365 - 04/21/11 06:17 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
HwyStar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 323
How about turning on a fan at full blast to drown out the sound? Place the fan on the floor right over her head. The louder the better! Start it up when you get home so she gets used to hearing the "white noise" before you start playing. I use a fan every night to help me sleep. She will get used to it as well and eventually will want a fan of her own.

You are wearing headphones so you won't care and because it will be getting warmer soon... smile

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#1664366 - 04/21/11 06:20 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
For about €500 I know a guy who can permanently solve your problem, if you know what I mean. smile
_________________________
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#1664386 - 04/21/11 06:51 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Saul Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 743
Loc: Banned
Thank you, Tar! smile
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http://www.musicalpaintings.net

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#1664390 - 04/21/11 06:54 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7133
Loc: torrance, CA
Quote:
I don't want to mount my piano on a six inch rubber block though


laugh

Not 6 inches! Just a half inch of solid rubber, not the spongy stuff.

Maybe you should have a meeting with your neighbors to discuss your need for mucial momentum. smile
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1664402 - 04/21/11 07:21 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Jonahan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 28
Loc: Central Texas
The situation sounds utterly ridiculous to me. Are you foot tapping without knowing it? Are you slamming the pedals?

Once I had my computer blaring music as loud as I could take it in my headphones, jamming away, before I realized that the speakers were on TOO... It wouldn't have been so embarrassing, except that I'd been listening to Barry Manilow.

Anyway, it just makes me wonder if you're doing something outside of just pressing the keys that's making the noise she's complaining about.

If not, then seriously, I'd just learn a few key words in German and share them with her the next time she yells at you!
_________________________
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1988 Yamaha G2 (5'7")
2010 Casio Privia PX-130

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#1664450 - 04/21/11 09:07 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3506
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Tar, I listened to your video - great playing and composition! Have a listen to it folks if you haven't already: Tar's Video starts slow but really gets going. smile

I don't think rubber pads are going to make enough difference to solve your problem entirely. It seems it's a combination of mechanical transmission and actual noise. You would probably need a really large, dense rubberised mat covering most of your room to help that. Very expensive.

Do you find the noise of the keys is caused when you press on them, or when you let go of the key and it springs up? If it's on release, you could probably modify your piano with some absorbent foam where the red/green felt is above the keys. If it's when you press down, I don't think there's anything you can do.

It sounds like you aren't able to move your piano to another room. Is that because you are in a shared flat? Maybe you could switch rooms? Maybe you'll have to move! You are obviously really into your music so you need a proper solution. It's very hard to practise when you are worried all the time.

Hope you work it out. Best of luck!

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#1664880 - 04/22/11 01:50 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3449
I have heard this problem before. As suggested above, make sure the piano does not touch floor or wall. Maybe you can put the piano on a floating floor, with some soft foam inbetween? You could test it by putting the piano on your matrass and ask the neighbours if that works.
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#1666666 - 04/26/11 03:12 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Dave Horne]
Tar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 296
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
For about €500 I know a guy who can permanently solve your problem, if you know what I mean. smile

And then I get 30 years. Naaah, I have too many pieces to write and I'm not sure my inmates would be as tolerant as my neighbour smile

Thank you guys! Lots of helpful advice (and entertaining reading) here! I'll be looking into denser material for the pad to stays under my piano. This seems to be the major component. And a nice word or two to my new neighbour would probably be good too.

Meanwhile, though, I got myself a T-shirt saying I've got a piano, and I'm not afraid to use it. I thought I'd flash this in front of my old neighbour just before I go wink
_________________________
Tar Viturawong
Amateur composer and pianist
Known on YouTube as pianoinspiration
verbis defectis musica incipit

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#1666739 - 04/26/11 08:45 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: wouter79]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: wouter79
put the piano on a floating floor,


This is the correct advice.
You need a floating platform floor that will decouple the mechanical noise transmission.

Google this and you should be able to build your own in a weekend or find a firm to do so. This could become your little stage at home.

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#1666749 - 04/26/11 09:05 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
mikewu99 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 314
Loc: Audubon, PA
Originally Posted By: Tar
Anyway, in attempt to solve the problem I got myself a tiling array of anti-noise-anti-vibration washing machine pads. It helped, she said, but not nearly enough.
The problem may be that isolation pads designed for a washing machine (which is likely much heavier than your digital piano) are too stiff to effectively dampen the vibrations from your piano. You may want to try something a bit softer - maybe a couple of layers of carpet pad (the foam padding put underneath carpets) or one of the chef's gel mats which seem to be getting popular in the US.

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#1666757 - 04/26/11 09:21 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
peterd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/11
Posts: 35
Loc: New York
Just checked out your video inner lion. I can't fix your problem with the neighbors but if I could play like that I gladly get thrown out of anyplace.

Maybe you should play without the headphones the music is great. I'd rather hear that then the thumping.

Good luck
Peter
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Peter

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#1666799 - 04/26/11 10:36 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
I've had this problem and also attempted to solve it. It seems easy to solve until you actually try it.

Think of it this way: A pianist at a DP playing Chopin's Scherzo Op31 is expending the same amount of energy as a pianist sitting at a concert grand in a large concert hall playing the same composition.

The pianist at the AC is generating enough sound energy to fill the hall with no amplification - some considerable amount of energy.

Where is the energy going that the digital pianist is generating? A tiny and negligible fraction is triggering the sensors in the DP which produce a very small electrical signal which is then amplified a very small amount for the headphones (the lady can't hear the sound from the headphones because this sound energy is very, very small.)

Essentially all of the energy produces vibrations in the body of the DP - which are nicely transferred to the floor (some of the energy radiates into the room where the piano is, but much goes into the floor). Wood framed floors make really effective soundboards, and this is a problem that architects and structural engineers face on a daily basis as footsteps, voices, etc are heard by the occupants below (I'm a structural engineer by profession). Any solution effective enough to solve the problem is likely going to cost as much as the digital piano.

There are two practical solutions:

1) relocate the DP to another room where hopefully the vibrations won't transmit to the room where the lady sleeps,

2) relocate your residence to the lowest floor.

G

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#1666817 - 04/26/11 11:12 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
I don't know what they use in Germany, but in the US, bars use a thick honeycomb type rubber mat behind the bar. Try that.
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#1666824 - 04/26/11 11:24 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
KurtZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 851
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
The thing about trying to de-couple the vibrations from the floor is that the material has to be loaded properly. The material has to be elastic enough that the material flexes enough to turn the vibrations into heat via friction. If the materials is too dense or over squashed it doesn't flex enough to accomplish the goal. The amplitude and the frequency of the vibrations are going to factor into it as well but that's physics and way to much for my left handed drummers brain. You're probably going to have to do some experimenting. Don't overlook using plywood over whatever decoupling material you use. It will spread the load and keep the resilient material from being over compressed where the legs are.

I would look at sorbothane, ensolite and eggcrate foams as underlayments for some type of platform. If you have an outdoors store near you, ensolite is frequently used as camping sleeping pads. It'll be the closed cell foam thats about an inch thick. It has a wonderful progressive resistance that makes it fairly soft but really hard to bottom out.

HTH

Kurt
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#1667129 - 04/26/11 08:12 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: KurtZ]
Amant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/07
Posts: 310
Loc: Southwest
IMO, you handled the situation badly, (very badly):

1) I would have denied (ever) having a piano;
2) I would have said that I was fast asleep, and that I was also awakened by the sounds;
3) I would have then have wondered if there was some sort of mechanical cause for the noise such as utilities in this "cheap building" or perhaps someone else in the building making a racket;
4) I would have then sympathetically commiserated with your neighbor and said that "we" better get to the bottom of this;
5) I would then return to practicing every night at the precise same time so as to blame some sort of electrical timer in the wiring or maybe a leaking water pipe (or something along those lines);
6) I would actively and frequently search out my peeved neighbor to commiserate in the shear agony of disturbed sleep.

smokin cursing

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#1667137 - 04/26/11 08:30 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
ChatNoir Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1471
Loc: Encino, California
This gives new meaning to Schubert's "Ständchen":

Leise fliegen meine Lieder,
durch die Nacht zu Dir.......
_________________________
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#1667146 - 04/26/11 09:03 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Plantmom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 22
Loc: Florida
I like the composition linked above!
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#1667257 - 04/27/11 02:03 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Amant]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Amant
IMO, you handled the situation badly, (very badly):

1) I would have denied (ever) having a piano;
2) I would have said that I was fast asleep, and that I was also awakened by the sounds;
3) I would have then have wondered if there was some sort of mechanical cause for the noise such as utilities in this "cheap building" or perhaps someone else in the building making a racket;
4) I would have then sympathetically commiserated with your neighbor and said that "we" better get to the bottom of this;
5) I would then return to practicing every night at the precise same time so as to blame some sort of electrical timer in the wiring or maybe a leaking water pipe (or something along those lines);
6) I would actively and frequently search out my peeved neighbor to commiserate in the shear agony of disturbed sleep.

smokin cursing


Are you sure you aren't from Amsterdam?

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#1667263 - 04/27/11 02:50 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: theJourney]
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4869
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Amant
IMO, you handled the situation badly, (very badly):

1) I would have denied (ever) having a piano;
2) I would have said that I was fast asleep, and that I was also awakened by the sounds;
3) I would have then have wondered if there was some sort of mechanical cause for the noise such as utilities in this "cheap building" or perhaps someone else in the building making a racket;
4) I would have then sympathetically commiserated with your neighbor and said that "we" better get to the bottom of this;
5) I would then return to practicing every night at the precise same time so as to blame some sort of electrical timer in the wiring or maybe a leaking water pipe (or something along those lines);
6) I would actively and frequently search out my peeved neighbor to commiserate in the shear agony of disturbed sleep.

smokin cursing


Are you sure you aren't from Amsterdam?

No, I think he's from Italy.
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Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#1667476 - 04/27/11 01:32 PM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2320
Loc: UK
A low cost form of the floating floor suggestion has been discussed in the past on the digital piano forum. A sheet of MDF or hardboard with holes cut out about 2/3 the diameter of a tennis ball, then 'float' the platform on several tennis balls.

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#1696982 - 06/17/11 11:11 AM Re: Digital piano and neighbours [Re: Tar]
Tar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 296
Loc: Munich, Germany
Hello all!

I just wanted to give a quick update. So, it's been almost six weeks since I moved in. To my great fortune the flooring is so good that I ended up not needing any sort of material beneath my piano at all (and so my washing machine pads ended up in their rightful place: underneath my new washing machine!) There's a saxophonist living across the corridor so I guess we sympathise with each other. The lady who lived beneath me said she heard nothing so far.

I can feel my arms relaxing! Seriously, playing the piano with dread must have ruined my technique in the past.

A big thank you to all who's given me much advice and information. Should I have to move again I shall bear all of it in my mind smile

Tar
_________________________
Tar Viturawong
Amateur composer and pianist
Known on YouTube as pianoinspiration
verbis defectis musica incipit

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