I have been looking at DP for a while and really wanted to buy the CL35. But lack of key cover and apparently only having 3 levels of touch sensitivity made me hesitate. Now I see the KDP-80 has been released...basically the same DP, but with key cover!
My question is about the touch sensitivity...is it better in the KDP-80 or the same? No one can tell me...hence posting on a forum. Maybe the better question is...is there really such a thing as touch sensitivity levels??? (the faster you strike a key, the louder the sound becomes)- 3 levels would mean you can only get for instance a p, mp and f out of the keys.

Does a DP really only have about 1 to 6 levels or are there infinite levels??

Im confused....somebody?! (It is still early...maybe more coffee would help? )

Stella

Yes and no. You can always get a range of dynamics ppp - fff depending on the capability of the keyboard action, the detection system, touch response and tone generators.

The sensitivity levels allow you to vary how hard or fast you press a key to produce the same level of dynamic. So a light touch response would play quite loud and it might be harder to play soft, and a heavy touch response might play quite soft and be harder to play loud.

In a DP this is based on how fast the key moves, the sensors detect the key velocity, and software can assign a different level of loudness to different velocities. This is usually called the velocity curve, or response curve or touch curve. Some DP's have 100 variations, some allow you to define your own, some as you say have 3, mine a Kawai CN33 has 5.

I've not heard of a KDP-80?

Instead of worrying about the touch sensitivity at this stage, choose some DP's within your budget, with hammer action, then read reviews, then go and play them for yourself. Feel the response and how they sound.

Hello Stella, welcome to the forum.

The KDP-80 and CL35 share many of the same specifications (keyboard action, no. of sounds, maximum polyphony, built-in lessons etc.), however the CL35 utilises 88-key piano sampling technology and therefore delivers a more authentic piano sound.

Regarding touch sensitivity levels, both instruments offer four 'Touch Curve' settings (Normal, Light, Heavy, and Constant) which allows you to increase or decrease the sensitivity of the keyboard. Furthermore, both instruments also utilise Harmonic Imaging allowing a much smoother and broader dynamic range than simply p, mp, and f.

May I ask if you have considered the Kawai CN23? The cabinet shares many similarities with the KDP-80, yet offers greatly improved 'Progressive Harmonic Imaging' sound technology and the new 'Responsive Hammer' keyboard action with Ivory Touch key surfaces. The CN23 is obviously more expensive than either the KDP80 or CL35, however I believe the extra investment contributes to an overall more realistic piano playing experience.

I hope this information is useful - good luck with your DP search.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thanks for the good answers everyone.
Just about what you said Kawai James...what technique does kawai employ then with the kdp-80 if it is not the standard 88-key sampling one? Hmm. Why change a good method?

And as for CN23, I did not want to get it exactly because of the "ivory touch keys". In my opinion it is just extra nonsense to inflate the price. Hehe...not too bold a statement I hope. No offense to anyone
Sooo, I would just have to go to the shop and see for myself. Just wanted to get some FACTS before I go to the shop and face the SALESMAN.

THANKS
Stella

Stella,



The KDP80 is a cost-reduced model that utilises Kawai's older sound technology (i.e. before the advent of 88-key piano sampling).



While I can understand your scepticism, I believe your opinion may change once you play-test an instrument with the newer action and Ivory Touch key surfaces. Aside from the improved stability of the new action, the appearance and feel is far last 'plastic-y' than previous generation keyboards.

Kind regards,
James
x

The CN33 has the 'ivory touch' feel. It is a nicer surface, by touch and visually, than a smooth polished plastic surface. I can't say at my level it improves my playing though.

I was for a very short stop in a shop today and it had the Clavia Nord models (FATAR action), Yamaha CP5 & CP50, the Roland FP7 (not -F), some Korg models (with RH3) , Some AURUS piano's and some USB keyboards - among them the new M-Audio Oxygen88.

I really felt the keybed on my Kawai MP6 is way better than the ones I mentioned above. I think in a certain price range the RH + Ivory touch keys of the Kawai's are really the best you can get, unless you're willing to go up way in price and start to compare it to Roland PHAIII and alike.

In other words - depending on your budget, I would certainly suggest to go for a RH + PHI based instruments (or better) and skip the cheaper models.

Cheers, J

Yes, this is a little bit confusing.

Usually there are 127 levels of loudness depending from finger touch velocity supported.
Most quality pianos should do this, but older and cheaper keyboards are known to have gaps - they dont reproduce all these steps.

This has to do with binary representation of MIDI data, more than 0-127 is not possible.
There is a newer revision of MIDI and Yamaha Diskklavier and the top end CVPs are supposed to support this specification and to support more than 127 velocity levels..
Other pianos might support more than this in their internal sound engine.

The human ear is supposed to recognise 3 dB steps and if the range of a piano is 60 dB then 20 steps of loudness should be enough /if the velocity curve is optimally layed out/. The latter, however is normally not the case, because the dependency between touch strength (aka touch velocity) and sound volume and timbre is highly nonlinear in a real piano and also in a digital piano that is supposed to emulate the real thing. Therefore more than 20 levels are necessary. Also to adapt third party sound sources which probably use another velocity philosophy requires more levels in order to avoid abrupt timbre variations.

A piano changes its timbre with loudness. Most quality pianos support 3 or more levels of timbre variation. The better pianos interpolate the timbre and so there are effectively 127 steps of timbre too -more or less well done-.

What you cite as "levels" is something different.
If it is given that a piano has 6 levels of sensitivity then this does /not/ mean, there are only 6 levels of loudness and timbre variation. This would be very very poor for a modern DP ;-) These 6 levels mean in this case that the touch sensitivity can be adjusted in 6 steps. But, whatever of these 6 sensitivity you choose, you should always get 127 levels of loudness and timbre if the piano is a quality product.

(My english is not so very good, I hope you unstand it in the same way as I meant it, and not word by word as I literally wrote it ;-)

HTH,

Peter

Have to agree with the other posters about Ivory Touch -- don't dismiss it until you try it for yourself. Then you can say with certainty.

The fact that it was less "plasticky" than the other surfaces was one of the reasons I bought a CN23.

Ok...so thanks for everyones input. hpeterh...it's beginning to make more sense.
Hmm. I went to the shop today and played a bit on the CN23...I don't know, don't the keys feel a bit...clunky? Hehe. I used to play on an acoustic upright for years but it was very old and I think the keys were too...light to the touch. Don't know how to put it...I barely touched it and it made a sound. Maybe that is why this piano feels a bit clunky. When I let go of the key it kind of jumps upward. Is this normal?

Well, it feels better than the yamaha models in any case. Ok,..will have to think about it. And save some money. Really need a piano..it's been ages since ive played. My piano lives on a different continent than me now

Cheers everyone

I have limited experience with the newer DPs, but I really like my new Casio Celviano 620. I got a demo model for about 600 USD. I would give a big thumbs up to the ivory touch keys. They are great. The dynamic range on my Celviano is actually better than on my old acoustic piano. The bouncing you feel on the keys is normal for lots of DPs, and you get used to it. I haven't played a good acoustic piano for quite a while, but my old one doesn't feel good any more. Try to test play a Celviano 620.

CN23 RH - clunky; I don't know ...could be the specific unit you tried. Perhaps there's a cheaper and more expensive incarnation of RH (?!) . At least the keys on my MP6 don't feel clunky , but very solid. Especially compared to some of the other keybeds I tried. There's better out there of course, but again it also depends on your budget.

Concerning the remark on dB's ; I thought that the human ear could recognize 1dB steps - that's where the whole dB scale came from after all ;-) Haven't dug into it recently anymore, but the 3dB's I recall from very dusty memory, could be more about panning (l/r) and or relative loudness differences that the actual distinguishing of a difference at all. Still...if 127 steps is what's available and you start from a noise floor of about 20dB , then the MIDI resolution should be enough theoretically (!). But it is well known that changing volumes digitally in steps with this resolution produces zipper noise, hence most digital equipment has a much higher resolution. Don't know if that's also valid for reproducing samples sounds in a DP, but I think an internal higher resolution wouldn't be bad at all and is probably used in many cases...

As for the Casio - they are great in the price range they represent, but in my experience the Kawai's are more solid then the Casio machines in both touch and sound. It's a matter of taste of course.

Take whatever you like best - you have to try it first for yourself anyway.

J

Hi. I am a brand new member. After playing guitar for around 40 years and having plateaued in skill quite a while ago I've picked up piano at last. It's something I've always wanted to do; and, as a guitar player, could already pick out the odd major and minor triad on a keyboard. So, after much deliberation I bought a Kawai KDP80 on the weekend. (And spent more than my original budget. In fact, I wouldn't have spent the same amount on a guitar - and I can play that). Anyway, FWIW I'm pleased with it. Sufficiently realistic piano tone and good feel (much better than the Privia models I was considering.