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#1669144 - 04/30/11 06:12 PM headphones
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I didn't want to further hijack Auver's thread regarding headphones and his Nord.

This has been a most interesting week. I ordered a pair of AKG 240 MKII's based on a thread here at PianoWorld. I was immediately disappointed with the rather strong, in my opinion, emphasis of the upper bass region. These headphones are really only for my N3 and C5 and I've gotten very accustomed to how I think they, especially the N3, should sound.

Well, I've had the new headphones for four days or so and the flaws I initially heard are fading away, not entirely, but I'm getting accustomed to the new sound of my piano.

What's interesting, I've used a pair of Sony MDR V600's for almost 20 years and always thought they were really good. I remember the first time I listened to a CD with them and was just blown away. I was a happy camper all those years.

When I now listen to my N3 with the Sony headphones, I cringe. They sound thin and bright, just the opposite of the AKG's. What happened?

I know some folks think that headphones and speakers need to be ... burned in. You see, after ... burning in, the sound of the headphones will change ... and always improve; interestingly enough, they'll never get worse, only better.

My Sony's are almost 20 years old and I'm pretty certain they haven't changed in the last week but they really sound a lot different to me now then they did a week ago.

What happened? Did either set of headphones change ... or did my perception change?

What I've learned is this, when you try a new piece of equipment, give it more than several days to become accustomed to the new sound. I'm going to keep trying more headphones but the AKG's are sounding better and better. Sometimes I'll play the N3 and forget that I'm using headphones and am just listening to the piano.

... an interesting week ... and I never would have guessed this would have happened.

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#1669157 - 04/30/11 06:36 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Auver Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 196
Loc: Norway
I was actually very happy that you took your time posting in my thread, but oh well. wink

I think that this 'burned in' thing doesn't exist, or it doesn't matter as much as people want it to. I guess you could test that by getting two set of head the same headphones, using one of them til it's burned in, and check if there's any difference. As you say, I think it's our ear that adjusts.

It's a good sign I guess, that you sometimes forget that you're using an headset. Your ears must be adjusting to the K240's now. smile What I don't get, is how a recording of the N3 sounded nice a few days ago and the N3 itself didn't through the headphones, before you were adjusted to the headphones??

Please keep reporting on the K240's, be it in this thread or my thread. I'm really interested in hearing your opinion. At the moment they seem to fulfill my headphone criterias.
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#1669160 - 04/30/11 06:40 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2219
Loc: Sydney, Australia
My guess (for the second time) is that it is indeed your perception.

I notice this kind of thing all the time. E.g, if I play a very mellow electric piano for a long time, and then switch to an acoustic piano sound, the AP sound will sound very bright - brighter than it would normally. Keep playing the AP, and it wears off though.

Greg.

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#1669163 - 04/30/11 06:59 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
What I don't get, is how a recording of the N3 sounded nice a few days ago and the N3 itself didn't through the headphones, before you were adjusted to the headphones??

Listening to something passively is different than listening to something you're creating with an expected sound. I was expecting to hear the sound I've always heard and when I didn't hear it, I thought something was wrong.

Listening to a recording is different than hearing something where you know what it should sound like.
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#1669165 - 04/30/11 07:02 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Lefty Chev Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 377
Loc: NY
I have a pair of $40 ear canal type headphones. They're great for an MP3 player and they're also comepletly isolating so I can even mow the lawn and listen to music. I was pretty happy with them until I got my AKG 240 MKII's. Now they sound duller and muddy. The thing is that I use the cheaper phones more than I use my AKG 240's. The 240's just aren't practical to wear when I'm doing work outside in the yard or when I'm at work. The fact that I use the cheaper phones more hasn't changed the perception that I like the 240's better though. They are more articulate and more open and I'm never going to not see that when I use the cheaper ones.

I think you're right in that some of it is what you get used to, but I also think that another aspect is that "good" is relative. Up until that point, the Sony's were the best you'd used so they were great. But they're only great until you try something better. Once you do that, you see all the shortcomings that weren't apparent before. I'm sure it will be the same if/when you try something that's twice the price of the AKG 240's.

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#1669187 - 04/30/11 07:46 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
James Q Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 54
Loc: Vancouver Canada
Dave, the two model you mentioned in your post are two different types of headphone, the AKG K240 Mark II is a HI-FI headphone. The Sony MDR-V600 is a studio monitor headphone.

You'd better read the relative articles on the Wikipedia for better understanding these two different terms.

Basically, for the playback. HIFI(high-fidelity) headphone will "render" the original sources somehow to make it sounds nice/good, while the studio headphone is designed to reproduce the sound as it is recorded(uncolored).

All the sound engineers will adjust the recording before release CD to the market, therefore when you use your sony studio headphone you won't feel the sound is rare or hard to accept. However if you put a high end headphone such as AKG701 or HD650 you will certainly feel the difference. Although a lot people say the sound is a personal preference, a large percentage of hifi enthusiasts agree that HIFI headphone will deliver a better and comfortable feeling than the studio monitor headphone in most case.

The Yamaha digital piano, both CLP and Avant grand, should be played with HIFI headphone, such as the Sennheiser HD650. I try a few studio monitor headphone on my Avant grand the sound just feel thin and bright, the same feeling as you have. I guess it is because the build-in samples are linear, without any effect, so we need to use hifi headphone to "trimmed" or "colored".

Each brand of HI-FI headphone has their own sound, like I mentioned above, sound is a personal preference, therefore each brand has solid followers. Sennheiser is well known as classical music headphone, google the internet you will find most headphone forums and communities will recommend Sennheiser for classical music. Other brands have other advantages, BOSE love to specialized the product for bass, so a lot of young people prefer to use it listening to the Rock, so is Monster. Some headphones are designed to give a balance performance on all style of music.




Edited by James Q (05/01/11 07:57 AM)
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#1669213 - 04/30/11 08:51 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
egallego Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 138
Loc: Spain
Hi Dave, from my own limited experience with my AKG K-701 I can say yes, the sound changes drastically with the use (burn in).

The reason is that any speaker membrane needs some time to gain the design flexibility. Think of untrained muscles, it is roughly the same.

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#1669343 - 05/01/11 04:47 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Wat de boer niet kent, dat moet hij niet.

In general terms, we tend to like that which we are familiar with in a wide range of areas.
Our perceptions change based on previous exposure to alternatives.

At the same time, I wholeheartedly recommend the HD600 or HD650 Sennheisers for digital piano playing.
Wonderful sound. Great comfort. They also sound much better after one year of use.

My HD600s are the real competition with my RX-2 in bringing the sound to life coming out of my HP307.
And, they are incredibly durable well on their way into their second decade of use.

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#1669527 - 05/01/11 02:36 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
the Journey, I see the Sennheiser HD650 is 300 ohms. Would the N3 or any typical electric piano be able to drive it loud enough?
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#1669546 - 05/01/11 03:31 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
mucci Offline
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Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Dave, all DPs I have tested (including the N3) have enough power to drive all of those low sensitivity headphones with ease.
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#1669549 - 05/01/11 03:37 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
egallego Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 138
Loc: Spain
Kawai CA-93 have indeed a small head amp (that you can adjust) and will work OK with the HD650.

Yamaha doesn't tell nothing about headphones out in their use manual. Piano sound is not very demanding so if the N3 has a decent output buffer it will drive the HD650 Ok. I don't know if it has it though.

For others types of music you will surely want a head amp.

Yamaha recommends the HPE-160 for the N3, they have 100dB/ mW and 42 Ohms, so we cannot infer 300 Ohm behaviour from that.

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#1669554 - 05/01/11 03:53 PM Re: headphones [Re: mucci]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: mucci
Dave, all DPs I have tested (including the N3) have enough power to drive all of those low sensitivity headphones with ease.


My AKG's have a 50 or 55 ohm impedance which is greater than the Sony's and I can hear the difference. (The Sony's might be 30 ohms or so.) If I use the Sony's and then use the AKG's, I have to turn up the volume control to match levels.

I've maxed out the volume control on the N3 testing the AKG's. If they're 50 or 55 ohms, I'm guessing a set of headphones that are 300 ohms could not be made extremely loud or perhaps even loud enough with the N3 without a headphone amplifier.
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#1669643 - 05/01/11 06:47 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
James Q Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 54
Loc: Vancouver Canada
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
the Journey, I see the Sennheiser HD650 is 300 ohms. Would the N3 or any typical electric piano be able to drive it loud enough?


I plug my HD650 directly on my N2, no problem on driving it.
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#1669848 - 05/02/11 05:15 AM Re: headphones [Re: James Q]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: James Q
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
the Journey, I see the Sennheiser HD650 is 300 ohms. Would the N3 or any typical electric piano be able to drive it loud enough?


I plug my HD650 directly on my N2, no problem on driving it.


James, are you forced to max out the volume control or do you still have some control even if you would want it louder?
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#1669854 - 05/02/11 05:25 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I've maxed out the volume control on the N3 testing the AKG's. If they're 50 or 55 ohms, I'm guessing a set of headphones that are 300 ohms could not be made extremely loud or perhaps even loud enough with the N3 without a headphone amplifier.



Impedance has not necessarily an impact on headphone sensitivity. Examples:

Sennheiser HD 650, high Impedance, medium sensitivity, not too loud:
Impedance: 300 Ohm
Sensitivity: 103 dB/V at 1mW

AKG K 701, medium Impedace, high sensitivity, should be quite loud:
Impedance: 62 Ohm
Sensitivity: 105 dB/V

Beyerdynamic DT 880
low impedance, low sensitivity, should be low volume:
Impedance: 32 Ohm
Sensitivity: 96 dB/V
or
high impedance, low sensitivity, should be difficult to drive
Impedance: 600 Ohm
Sensitivity: 96 dB/V

Shure SE535 (Inears):
Low impedance, high sensitivity, very loud:
Impedance: 20 Ohm
Sensitivity: 107dB/V

Conclusion: The lower the impedance and the higher the sensitivity, the louder is the headphone output.
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#1669861 - 05/02/11 06:45 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
James Q Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 54
Loc: Vancouver Canada
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Originally Posted By: James Q
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
the Journey, I see the Sennheiser HD650 is 300 ohms. Would the N3 or any typical electric piano be able to drive it loud enough?


I plug my HD650 directly on my N2, no problem on driving it.


James, are you forced to max out the volume control or do you still have some control even if you would want it louder?


I feel the sound of HD650 is loud enough when volume controller is at around 2 o'clock position. This is enough for me. I won't turn the volume controller beyond 3 o'clock.


Edited by James Q (05/02/11 08:45 AM)
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#1669907 - 05/02/11 09:10 AM Re: headphones [Re: mucci]
Lefty Chev Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 377
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: mucci
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I've maxed out the volume control on the N3 testing the AKG's. If they're 50 or 55 ohms, I'm guessing a set of headphones that are 300 ohms could not be made extremely loud or perhaps even loud enough with the N3 without a headphone amplifier.



Impedance has not necessarily an impact on headphone sensitivity. Examples:

Sennheiser HD 650, high Impedance, medium sensitivity, not too loud:
Impedance: 300 Ohm
Sensitivity: 103 dB/V at 1mW

AKG K 701, medium Impedace, high sensitivity, should be quite loud:
Impedance: 62 Ohm
Sensitivity: 105 dB/V

Beyerdynamic DT 880
low impedance, low sensitivity, should be low volume:
Impedance: 32 Ohm
Sensitivity: 96 dB/V
or
high impedance, low sensitivity, should be difficult to drive
Impedance: 600 Ohm
Sensitivity: 96 dB/V

Shure SE535 (Inears):
Low impedance, high sensitivity, very loud:
Impedance: 20 Ohm
Sensitivity: 107dB/V

Conclusion: The lower the impedance and the higher the sensitivity, the louder is the headphone output.


You have to be careful with those sensitivity numbers and be sure you know what they're measuring. Most times you'll see speaker sensitivity measured in dB per 1mW @ 1 foot. The issue is that a higher impedance will make it harder to draw that 1mW. The numbers above are measuring dB per 1V of power, and I'm assuming that it's not at 1 foot. This means that regardless of how much current is drawn due to the impedance of the headphones, the drivers will put out that SPL given a volt of power. The one number that doesn't make sense though is the HD 650's. "Sensitivity: 103 dB/V at 1mW" should either be dB/V or dB/mW. I'm guessing it's a typo.

If you look at the AKG 240's, they list both measurements - Sensitivity 91 dB/mW, 104 dB/V

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#1669922 - 05/02/11 09:40 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Ovidiu M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Romania
Loudness has almost nothing to do with the ability of driving headphones like HD650 and K701. Even my Nokia N70 pulled acceptable volume levels out of my K701. But when i plugged them into a dedicated headphone amp...another world.

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#1669924 - 05/02/11 09:43 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Quote:
ImpedanceHeadphones are available with low or high impedance measured at 1 kHz. Low-impedance headphones are in the range 75 to 150 ohms and high impedance headphones are about 600 ohms.[4] High impedance headphones have been popular among tube amplifier aficionados,[citation needed] and in classroom or studio situations requiring many headphones connected in parallel to the same source. Low impedance headphones yield a louder sound from a standard headphone jack, and require less voltage to achieve a target sound pressure level—an important consideration for portable electronics.[4]

[edit] SensitivitySensitivity is a measure of a transducer's output when driven with a specific reference input. Headphone manufacturers often loosely use the term "efficiency" where sensitivity should be used. Headphone efficiency (power in/power out) is a type of sensitivity, but efficiency is usually not an important characteristic to measure for headphones (see Efficiency vs Sensitivity).

Common "units" for headphone sensitivity are "dB/mW" and "dB/mV". This notation is an inappropriate simplification,[5] but what these mean are dB SPL (sound pressure level) measured in a standard ear for a 1 kHz sinusoidal headphone input of either 1 milliwatt or one millivolt. Technical notation would be "dB ref. 20μPa/mW" or "dB ref. 20μPa/mV". One can convert between these two references if the impedance is known.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headphones
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#1669942 - 05/02/11 10:22 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2219
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I'm sorry, but loudness can be a VERY BIG factor.

My Casio PX-330 can't drive my AKG K601s quite loud enough for me.
It can drive my Sennheiser HD570 JUST loud enough.

It can VERY EASILY drive my Creative in-ear buds - the volume control is WAY WAY down, and it is plenty loud enough.

Greg.

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#1670129 - 05/02/11 04:35 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
gqchynaboy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 21
Loc: Bay Area
Would you guys recommend using the Roland RH-A30? Dealer said he would just sell it at wholesale price - http://www.jr.com/roland/pe/ROL_RHA30/

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#1670154 - 05/02/11 05:08 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
If you want to purchase something in this price range, I would watch out for something from the "big three":

AKG (e.g. K 701)
Beyerdynamic (e.g. DT770 or DT880)
Sennheiser (e.g. HD595, HD600, HD650)

Or, my hot budget tip, something from Superlux (HD681?)
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#1670225 - 05/02/11 07:26 PM Re: headphones [Re: gqchynaboy]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: gqchynaboy
Would you guys recommend using the Roland RH-A30? Dealer said he would just sell it at wholesale price - http://www.jr.com/roland/pe/ROL_RHA30/


I'm guessing that's not really made by Roland but by Sony.

I've seen other headphones in the past under the name of Roland that were duplicates for Sony's ... no baloney.
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#1670366 - 05/03/11 12:35 AM Re: headphones [Re: mucci]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: mucci
If you want to purchase something in this price range, I would watch out for something from the "big three":

AKG (e.g. K 701)
Beyerdynamic (e.g. DT770 or DT880)
Sennheiser (e.g. HD595, HD600, HD650)


Originally Posted By: theJourney
At the same time, I wholeheartedly recommend the HD600 or HD650 Sennheisers for digital piano playing.
Wonderful sound. Great comfort. They also sound much better after one year of use.
My HD600s are the real competition with my RX-2 in bringing the sound to life coming out of my HP307.
And, they are incredibly durable well on their way into their second decade of use.


Headphone guys-
I've used the Beyer 880s before and felt they were a step up from my 240s. How do the 880s compare with the Beyer 990s ? I don't think I want the totally closed sound of the 770s.

And like wise where/how do the Senns fit in there ? They're more dough then the Beyers I see. Most of the accolades I've read on the Senns are coming from users listening to Classical music, not musicians playing a DP through them. Is there a difference between the 600s & 650s ? Would the Senns be superior to the Beyers for DP use or would that full under the category of taste ? smile cool

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#1670417 - 05/03/11 04:25 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
I favor the Beyers for Piano playing, because of the more pronounced highs which is in my opinion beneficial for the piano sound. Generally I think that DP headphones don't necessarily need to be the best hifi headphones since the DP sound is not so demanding as a complete orchestral work or stuff like that. I would prefer headphones with a more brilliant sound signature.
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#1670457 - 05/03/11 07:30 AM Re: headphones [Re: mucci]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: mucci
Generally I think that DP headphones don't necessarily need to be the best hifi headphones since the DP sound is not so demanding as a complete orchestral work or stuff like that.

I tend to disagree here; my past experience with many types of headphones is that the solo piano attack transient is one of the more difficult sounds for cans to master. By the way, my Sennheiser HD595's (and CyberGene's last time I heard) are currently doing an excellent job. smile
HD650's have also been reported to perform great with a CA93 (a link to the review is available in the first post of my CA93/CA63 custom settings thread).
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#1670468 - 05/03/11 07:46 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
I tested Beyer DT770 pro, AKG K301, Superlux HD681, and all threee have very good quality with the CA63.

I would rate them
1. AKG K301 (old model, 50 Euro)
2. Superlux HD681 (cheap model, 20 Euro)
3. Beyer DT770pro (140 Euro)

As you can see, no relation to the money I paid for them. First two models are open heaphones which is also quite important for a nice stage feeling.

I made the experience that even expensive Inear monitors are not as good as those full size headphones. I tested Ultimate Ears TF10, UE5 pro, UE700, Shure SE530, and other cheap models.
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#1670563 - 05/03/11 10:54 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I was in a store Saturday and they procured a Sennheiser HD598 from their other location for me to try. I picked them up today. They are also 50 ohms but are more efficient than the AKG 240's.

The sound from the HD598 is really quite similar to the 240MKII. I'm switching back and forth between them and constantly have to readjust the volume setting.

If the HD598 is better than the 240MKII it is only extremely slightly better.

This isn't easy. At the moment I think I'll keep my AKG's and return the Sennheiser but I will give them a few more days to test. I can keep them for a week. I thought I was going to get the HD650's but that could have been a misunderstanding. The selling price for the Sennheiser HD598 is €199.
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#1670736 - 05/03/11 03:47 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I sent a friend of mine who is an electrical engineer the following message. I also sent a PM to an individual asking similar information. Feel free to comment.

Here's what I wrote:

I would like to compare two different headphones based on their specifications. My primary concern is if my electric piano can drive the one set of headphones loud enough.

At the moment I’m using a set of AKG 240 MKII - 91 dB/mW, 104 dB/V … 55 ohms impedance My electric piano’s volume control for these headphones is past 12 o’clock (it goes to 3’oclock). I can even crank the piano wide open and play. In other words, these headphones are just efficient enough for my use. I would prefer to be able to crank the volume more but this combination is adequate.

The headphones I’m thinking of buying are the Sennheiser HD 650’s. What information I can get from Sennheiser is this, 103 dB (1 Vrms) … 300 ohms.

I don’t know the output of the headphone amp for the piano. Can you deduce from what I’ve given if you think the HD 650’s could be driven loud enough by the piano? If they were both 55 ohms I would think the Sennheiser would be possibly slightly louder, one dB, but it is 300 ohms, I’m concerned … and I don’t feel like buying a headphone amp. In that case I ‘d just keep the AKG’s and be done with it.

(I wrote 3 o'clock, but the volume control for the N3 is really from 7 to 5 like most pots. At any rate the AKG's are more towards the 12 to 5 area.)
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#1670753 - 05/03/11 04:17 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Lefty Chev Offline
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Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 377
Loc: NY
I'm long removed from physics classes and working with circuits, but what I think the number that matters for practical purposes is the "dB/V".

Given 1 volt of output, the 240's will be driven to produce 104 dB.
Given 1 volt of output, the 650's will be driven to produce 103 dB.


The 650's will draw less current due to their higher impedance, but they're able to produce 1dB less due to what I'm guessing is more efficient drivers.

This is all to the best of my recollection and I wouldn't make any decision solely based on my opinion.

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#1670891 - 05/03/11 07:37 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
My electrical engineer friend quoted some from Wiki and then added the following ...

So, to get maximum power transfer your source impedance (piano's amplifier output) must equal the load impedance (headphones). However, your existing headphones have a much lower impedance than the anticipated new headphones which probably means that you will see better efficiency (and higher perceived volume) from the new headphones since it takes less current to drive a 300 ohm load than a 55 ohm load.

Hope this helps.
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#1670909 - 05/03/11 08:07 PM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Lefty Chev Offline
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Registered: 04/19/11
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Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
it takes less current to drive a 300 ohm load than a 55 ohm load.



I think he reversed what he was trying to say.

EDIT: and the impedance matching isn't relevant for speakers or headphones. They use voltage bridging, where your output impedance is very low and your speaker/headphone impedance is very high.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_bridging


Edited by Lefty Chev (05/03/11 08:28 PM)

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#1670944 - 05/03/11 09:17 PM Re: headphones [Re: Lefty Chev]
ChrisA Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Lefty Chev
I'm long removed from physics classes and working with circuits, but what I think the number that matters for practical purposes is the "dB/V".

Given 1 volt of output, the 240's will be driven to produce 104 dB.
Given 1 volt of output, the 650's will be driven to produce 103 dB.


The above is correct but if one headphone is 300 ohms and the other is 50. Then one needs 6 times more current or, because power is volts times current 6 times more power for what is very close to the same volume level.

But most any DP and even an iPod has enough power to drive low impedance headphones.

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#1671002 - 05/03/11 10:10 PM Re: headphones [Re: ChrisA]
Lefty Chev Offline
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Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 377
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: ChrisA

The above is correct but if one headphone is 300 ohms and the other is 50. Then one needs 6 times more current or, because power is volts times current 6 times more power for what is very close to the same volume level.

But most any DP and even an iPod has enough power to drive low impedance headphones.


My assumption is that looking at dB per volt takes that into consideration.

1V into a 300 ohm load would result in 0.00333 amps of current. They're saying that that produces 103dB of sound pressure at whatever the measuring distance is.

1V into a 55 ohm load would result in 0.01818 amps of current. They're saying that that produces 104dB of sound pressure at whatever the measuring distance is.

The explanation for that is that the speakers in the 300 ohm cans are much more efficient and require less current to drive to a similar volume.

At least that's what seems to make sense.

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#1671080 - 05/04/11 02:12 AM Re: headphones [Re: Lefty Chev]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: Lefty Chev

1V into a 300 ohm load would result in 0.00333 amps of current. They're saying that that produces 103dB of sound pressure at whatever the measuring distance is.

1V into a 55 ohm load would result in 0.01818 amps of current. They're saying that that produces 104dB of sound pressure at whatever the measuring distance is.

The explanation for that is that the speakers in the 300 ohm cans are much more efficient and require less current to drive to a similar volume.

At least that's what seems to make sense.


Exactly! So look at these dB/V numbers, they're in most cases provided with your cans (or stated at the technical specs in the internet).
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#1671123 - 05/04/11 04:54 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
So, while the Sennheiser HD 650's will probably be loud enough I should have a return policy in place before I open my wallet.
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#1682033 - 05/21/11 10:51 AM Re: headphones [Re: Dave Horne]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I compared my AKG 240 MKII's to the Sennheiser HD 650 today. I did a real fast comparison and the Sennheiser's were just a tad louder. So while one would expect (all things being equal) that a set of 300 ohm headphones would be quieter than a set of 55 ohm headphones, the Sennheiser's are actually more efficient.

So while I haven't decided to buy them just yet, it's still good to know I won't need to buy a headphone amplifier to use them with my N3.
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#1682066 - 05/21/11 11:51 AM Re: headphones [Re: James Q]
anotherscott Online   content
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3290
Originally Posted By: James Q
Dave, the two model you mentioned in your post are two different types of headphone, the AKG K240 Mark II is a HI-FI headphone. The Sony MDR-V600 is a studio monitor headphone.

I don't know anything about the Sony, but it is interesting about the AKG. Coincidentally, I just discovered the same thing last night. The AKG 240 used to be a studio monitor headphone, but it apparently isn't quite that accurate anymore.

http://wiki.faust3d.com/wiki/index.php?title=AKG_K240_Series

I have the AKG K240DF which is probably the best studio monitor version they ever made.

I think any headphones you like the sound of, "hi-fi" or otherwise, are fine if you're just using them for your own pleasure. But if you're using headphones to record with, or to evaluate the sounds coming out of an instrument, then you want to aim for something neutral, something accurate.

In terms of a moderately priced accurate headphone, I think the AKG of choice these days is the K702, though a Beyer DT-880 might still be a better choice, I'm not sure. Or if you want a closed back design, the Denon AH-D2000, which I just ordered, to complement my K240DF. It looks like they are almost as neutral, and will be handy when I need more volume, or am doing something in a noisy environment where I want to block out other sounds, or for microphone recording where the leakage of an open-back would be a problem.

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