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I didn't want to further hijack Auver's thread regarding headphones and his Nord.

This has been a most interesting week. I ordered a pair of AKG 240 MKII's based on a thread here at PianoWorld. I was immediately disappointed with the rather strong, in my opinion, emphasis of the upper bass region. These headphones are really only for my N3 and C5 and I've gotten very accustomed to how I think they, especially the N3, should sound.

Well, I've had the new headphones for four days or so and the flaws I initially heard are fading away, not entirely, but I'm getting accustomed to the new sound of my piano.

What's interesting, I've used a pair of Sony MDR V600's for almost 20 years and always thought they were really good. I remember the first time I listened to a CD with them and was just blown away. I was a happy camper all those years.

When I now listen to my N3 with the Sony headphones, I cringe. They sound thin and bright, just the opposite of the AKG's. What happened?

I know some folks think that headphones and speakers need to be ... burned in. You see, after ... burning in, the sound of the headphones will change ... and always improve; interestingly enough, they'll never get worse, only better.

My Sony's are almost 20 years old and I'm pretty certain they haven't changed in the last week but they really sound a lot different to me now then they did a week ago.

What happened? Did either set of headphones change ... or did my perception change?

What I've learned is this, when you try a new piece of equipment, give it more than several days to become accustomed to the new sound. I'm going to keep trying more headphones but the AKG's are sounding better and better. Sometimes I'll play the N3 and forget that I'm using headphones and am just listening to the piano.

... an interesting week ... and I never would have guessed this would have happened.

I was actually very happy that you took your time posting in my thread, but oh well.

I think that this 'burned in' thing doesn't exist, or it doesn't matter as much as people want it to. I guess you could test that by getting two set of head the same headphones, using one of them til it's burned in, and check if there's any difference. As you say, I think it's our ear that adjusts.

It's a good sign I guess, that you sometimes forget that you're using an headset. Your ears must be adjusting to the K240's now. What I don't get, is how a recording of the N3 sounded nice a few days ago and the N3 itself didn't through the headphones, before you were adjusted to the headphones??

Please keep reporting on the K240's, be it in this thread or my thread. I'm really interested in hearing your opinion. At the moment they seem to fulfill my headphone criterias.

My guess (for the second time) is that it is indeed your perception.

I notice this kind of thing all the time. E.g, if I play a very mellow electric piano for a long time, and then switch to an acoustic piano sound, the AP sound will sound very bright - brighter than it would normally. Keep playing the AP, and it wears off though.

Greg.

What I don't get, is how a recording of the N3 sounded nice a few days ago and the N3 itself didn't through the headphones, before you were adjusted to the headphones??

Listening to something passively is different than listening to something you're creating with an expected sound. I was expecting to hear the sound I've always heard and when I didn't hear it, I thought something was wrong.

Listening to a recording is different than hearing something where you know what it should sound like.

I have a pair of $40 ear canal type headphones. They're great for an MP3 player and they're also comepletly isolating so I can even mow the lawn and listen to music. I was pretty happy with them until I got my AKG 240 MKII's. Now they sound duller and muddy. The thing is that I use the cheaper phones more than I use my AKG 240's. The 240's just aren't practical to wear when I'm doing work outside in the yard or when I'm at work. The fact that I use the cheaper phones more hasn't changed the perception that I like the 240's better though. They are more articulate and more open and I'm never going to not see that when I use the cheaper ones.

I think you're right in that some of it is what you get used to, but I also think that another aspect is that "good" is relative. Up until that point, the Sony's were the best you'd used so they were great. But they're only great until you try something better. Once you do that, you see all the shortcomings that weren't apparent before. I'm sure it will be the same if/when you try something that's twice the price of the AKG 240's.

Dave, the two model you mentioned in your post are two different types of headphone, the AKG K240 Mark II is a HI-FI headphone. The Sony MDR-V600 is a studio monitor headphone.

You'd better read the relative articles on the Wikipedia for better understanding these two different terms.

Basically, for the playback. HIFI(high-fidelity) headphone will "render" the original sources somehow to make it sounds nice/good, while the studio headphone is designed to reproduce the sound as it is recorded(uncolored).

All the sound engineers will adjust the recording before release CD to the market, therefore when you use your sony studio headphone you won't feel the sound is rare or hard to accept. However if you put a high end headphone such as AKG701 or HD650 you will certainly feel the difference. Although a lot people say the sound is a personal preference, a large percentage of hifi enthusiasts agree that HIFI headphone will deliver a better and comfortable feeling than the studio monitor headphone in most case.

The Yamaha digital piano, both CLP and Avant grand, should be played with HIFI headphone, such as the Sennheiser HD650. I try a few studio monitor headphone on my Avant grand the sound just feel thin and bright, the same feeling as you have. I guess it is because the build-in samples are linear, without any effect, so we need to use hifi headphone to "trimmed" or "colored".

Each brand of HI-FI headphone has their own sound, like I mentioned above, sound is a personal preference, therefore each brand has solid followers. Sennheiser is well known as classical music headphone, google the internet you will find most headphone forums and communities will recommend Sennheiser for classical music. Other brands have other advantages, BOSE love to specialized the product for bass, so a lot of young people prefer to use it listening to the Rock, so is Monster. Some headphones are designed to give a balance performance on all style of music.

Hi Dave, from my own limited experience with my AKG K-701 I can say yes, the sound changes drastically with the use (burn in).

The reason is that any speaker membrane needs some time to gain the design flexibility. Think of untrained muscles, it is roughly the same.

Wat de boer niet kent, dat moet hij niet.

In general terms, we tend to like that which we are familiar with in a wide range of areas.
Our perceptions change based on previous exposure to alternatives.

At the same time, I wholeheartedly recommend the HD600 or HD650 Sennheisers for digital piano playing.
Wonderful sound. Great comfort. They also sound much better after one year of use.

My HD600s are the real competition with my RX-2 in bringing the sound to life coming out of my HP307.
And, they are incredibly durable well on their way into their second decade of use.

the Journey, I see the Sennheiser HD650 is 300 ohms. Would the N3 or any typical electric piano be able to drive it loud enough?

Dave, all DPs I have tested (including the N3) have enough power to drive all of those low sensitivity headphones with ease.

Kawai CA-93 have indeed a small head amp (that you can adjust) and will work OK with the HD650.

Yamaha doesn't tell nothing about headphones out in their use manual. Piano sound is not very demanding so if the N3 has a decent output buffer it will drive the HD650 Ok. I don't know if it has it though.

For others types of music you will surely want a head amp.

Yamaha recommends the HPE-160 for the N3, they have 100dB/ mW and 42 Ohms, so we cannot infer 300 Ohm behaviour from that.

My AKG's have a 50 or 55 ohm impedance which is greater than the Sony's and I can hear the difference. (The Sony's might be 30 ohms or so.) If I use the Sony's and then use the AKG's, I have to turn up the volume control to match levels.

I've maxed out the volume control on the N3 testing the AKG's. If they're 50 or 55 ohms, I'm guessing a set of headphones that are 300 ohms could not be made extremely loud or perhaps even loud enough with the N3 without a headphone amplifier.

I plug my HD650 directly on my N2, no problem on driving it.

James, are you forced to max out the volume control or do you still have some control even if you would want it louder?

Impedance has not necessarily an impact on headphone sensitivity. Examples:

Sennheiser HD 650, high Impedance, medium sensitivity, not too loud:
Impedance: 300 Ohm
Sensitivity: 103 dB/V at 1mW

AKG K 701, medium Impedace, high sensitivity, should be quite loud:
Impedance: 62 Ohm
Sensitivity: 105 dB/V

Beyerdynamic DT 880
low impedance, low sensitivity, should be low volume:
Impedance: 32 Ohm
Sensitivity: 96 dB/V
or
high impedance, low sensitivity, should be difficult to drive
Impedance: 600 Ohm
Sensitivity: 96 dB/V

Shure SE535 (Inears):
Low impedance, high sensitivity, very loud:
Impedance: 20 Ohm
Sensitivity: 107dB/V

Conclusion: The lower the impedance and the higher the sensitivity, the louder is the headphone output.

I feel the sound of HD650 is loud enough when volume controller is at around 2 o'clock position. This is enough for me. I won't turn the volume controller beyond 3 o'clock.

You have to be careful with those sensitivity numbers and be sure you know what they're measuring. Most times you'll see speaker sensitivity measured in dB per 1mW @ 1 foot. The issue is that a higher impedance will make it harder to draw that 1mW. The numbers above are measuring dB per 1V of power, and I'm assuming that it's not at 1 foot. This means that regardless of how much current is drawn due to the impedance of the headphones, the drivers will put out that SPL given a volt of power. The one number that doesn't make sense though is the HD 650's. "Sensitivity: 103 dB/V at 1mW" should either be dB/V or dB/mW. I'm guessing it's a typo.

If you look at the AKG 240's, they list both measurements - Sensitivity 91 dB/mW, 104 dB/V

Loudness has almost nothing to do with the ability of driving headphones like HD650 and K701. Even my Nokia N70 pulled acceptable volume levels out of my K701. But when i plugged them into a dedicated headphone amp...another world.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headphones

I'm sorry, but loudness can be a VERY BIG factor.

My Casio PX-330 can't drive my AKG K601s quite loud enough for me.
It can drive my Sennheiser HD570 JUST loud enough.

It can VERY EASILY drive my Creative in-ear buds - the volume control is WAY WAY down, and it is plenty loud enough.

Greg.