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#1673885 - 05/08/11 07:27 PM why do I hate jazz?
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
My taste in music that I love spans many decades and many genres.. I bet some folk would be stunned at some of the music I love..
However, when it comes to jazz, I balk, grow cold and want to have that same injection that my dog had for his very "final" injection.
My brain just seems to reject music that has, what seems to me to be no melody.
I am led to understand it's all very refined and clever, and has great technical merit.
But I still cannot fathom the point in that when you cannot leave humming a tune.
I suppose I am just an old romantic for melodic content.
Or is there a problem with my brain?
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1673889 - 05/08/11 07:32 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1631
Loc: Colorado
Maybe you have a preference for a certain style or era of jazz and not so much for another style or era. It has evolved over the years since Ragtime and Blues, so it has a wide variety of contributors to its evolution, which as well, contributes to its very broad definition. Variety does have a certain spice to it. I find that appealing.

Glen
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

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#1673891 - 05/08/11 07:36 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
It seems to me like you've answered your own question.

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#1673893 - 05/08/11 07:38 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Inlanding]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Glen, are songs like "midnight in moscow" and "tiger rag" jazz? because I do like them.. Thing is I can hum them straight off now if asked... It's the stuff that seems to be like everyone speaking at once without saying anything!
I am fully prepared to except its a problem with my brain, because loads of very musical and sensible folk do like jazz.
I must be missing something, I just dont get it. doh.
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1673896 - 05/08/11 07:44 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1631
Loc: Colorado
The two tunes you mentioned are examples of what would be considered older forms of jazz with a heavier blues influence. Perhaps you like some of the old standards (songs, show tunes) where the melodies are defined and as well the lyrics. Bebop and cooler forms of jazz evolved from that and became more abstract for some folks, but not for others. You have lots of choices to find something you like or not.
_________________________


March piano audio
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#1673903 - 05/08/11 08:04 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Inlanding]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Ahh I think you may have just hit the nail on the head with one word there "abstract"
I am really trying to understand my shortcomings in this genre.
Oh no, just had second thoughts on the abstract part..
some folk thought The velvet underground were abstract and Tangerine dream., yet I didn't and don't.
This is hard, can it be that my brain has a short and hears modern jazz as too abstract a concept?
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1673904 - 05/08/11 08:06 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
You don't like jazz? Here, try this on...

_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1673906 - 05/08/11 08:10 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Roger Ransom Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1226
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
There is nothing wrong with your brain, you just don't like that kind if jazz. It's a personal taste thing. I like it but there's no reason for everyone to like it. Don't try to analyze it why you don't, you just don't.

I can't stand Bach or Mozart, they bore me and I can't listen to them long. I get ridiculed for that by people who think everyone has to like the same things they do. Absurd!

Nope, you're just fine, there's LOTS of music to listen to. Just listen to what you like.

It's all good.
_________________________
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#1673913 - 05/08/11 08:32 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Roger Ransom]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Jazzyprof...
I listened to the Nat king cole, if thats "jazz" then it isn't the sort of jazz I meant...
When I fall in love had a nice melodic line, and the backing was restrained to a memorable rythmic plucking sort of sound, almost like a glen miller band on a valium day.. nice.
The sort of "jazz" I meant is the hectic -not - going - home humming - any - melody type...
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1673915 - 05/08/11 08:34 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2398
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Interesting conversation!!
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Carl


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#1673919 - 05/08/11 08:42 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3539
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
I am fully prepared to except its a problem with my brain, because loads of very musical and sensible folk do like jazz.
I must be missing something, I just dont get it. doh.


Oh, but I somehow suspect that you do get it...and you're just trying to "pull our chains" to get a lively and perhaps heated discussion going just to break the all-pervasive boredom that some are claiming has settled in like a wet blanket over the Forums lately...Nah, you wouldn't do that...or would you?

But on the small chance that you're serious then you can be cured of your affliction by listening to the works of the contemorary (or smooth) jazz group Fourplay - especially when they play their signature piece "Foreplay" laugh

Trap
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

As good at piano as I am at golf - very high handicap!

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#1673921 - 05/08/11 08:46 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Roger Ransom]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3539
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
I can't stand Bach or Mozart, they bore me and I can't listen to them long.


Bach I can almost understand - but the only people who say they don't like Mozart are those who have never heard Mozart...

Trap
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

As good at piano as I am at golf - very high handicap!

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#1673923 - 05/08/11 08:55 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
gahdzila Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 175
Rostosky - I know EXACTLY what you mean. I love and enjoy listening to a very wide variety of music - from Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt and Chopin to Scott Joplin to Muddy Waters to Metallica and Slipknot and Spineshank. I can appreciate the beauty in an even larger body of music (like country and bluegrass and modern pop) even if I don't particularly enjoy listening to it.

But modern jazz.....I just don't get it. The abstract, dischordant, spontaneous stuff that follows no perceivable pattern. The stuff that is played live in bars full of silent Frenchmen smoking long cigarettes and wearing scarfs in the summer and sunglasses at night. The stuff that sounds like each band member is just tooting out a note once in a while to make his presence known. That stuff.

I'm with ya, bro. I don't get it either.


Edited by gahdzila (05/08/11 08:57 PM)

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#1673925 - 05/08/11 09:03 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: TrapperJohn]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
TrapperJohn....
I am being deadly serious, and am not pulling chains..absolutely not..... I am not bored either...
Look here is a link to the sort of jazz i mean, I just went to Youtube and found it, It has nothing to do with the group of musicians who are playing it...it could be anybody (and often is)
This is the sort of thing that I hear in supermarket isles and on films when there is 1970's cocktail party .
I am just trying to get an angle on what must be happening in my mind when i accidentally hear it...
for example, if you gave me a free ticket to a concert that featured this sort of music, I would happily pay £25.00 for someone to take the ticket off me.
Thats how much it actually "jars" in my brain.
The experimental music of tangerine dream and pink floyd as well as the velvet underground never had that effect upon me.
I have never heard Eric Saties vexations in their full "repeat 800 times" entirety, but I would rather than this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HN3nS5rUNs
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1673929 - 05/08/11 09:09 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5277
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Once upon a time I thought I didn't like jazz. But then someone gave me Bill Evans' Waltz for Debbie, and Miles Davis Kind of Blue.

There's all kinds of jazz, just like there's all kinds of "classical". Some of it I like, some of it I don't. I don't, for instance, gasp, "get" Coltrane. Yikes! But the 4-year-old daughter of a poster on another forum I'm in, when asked what she wanted to hear as background music for breakfast, tossed her hair and said, "how about a little Coltrane." We're all different, I guess laugh

Cathy
_________________________

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#1673930 - 05/08/11 09:10 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1631
Loc: Colorado
The statements you make about jazz applies to any genre of music that's been around for awhile. Some Rock and Roll over its lifespan is pretty lousy, some is great. Same with Metal, same with, Blues, same with Country, same with "classical", etc.

You are not required to understand or even like every form of jazz, classical, rock, blues, country, blue grass. They all have their ups and downs over their lifespan.

Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion and if you are open to learning about more abstract forms, how it is constructed, etc, then you would have a more informed opinion. It matters not, really - whatever you like is fine and what you don't like you can, <<Click --->Next

Maybe you meant to say you "hate some specific aspects/genres of jazz". Hate all of it? I think you don't.

Glen
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1673936 - 05/08/11 09:19 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5277
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Thats how much it actually "jars" in my brain.
The experimental music of tangerine dream and pink floyd as well as the velvet underground never had that effect upon me.
I have never heard Eric Saties vexations in their full "repeat 800 times" entirety, but I would rather than this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HN3nS5rUNs



<snort> Now see, I liked that laugh

Guess there's no accounting for taste, said the old lady as she kissed a cow. . .

Cathy
_________________________

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#1673938 - 05/08/11 09:19 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
gahdzila... YES, thats it, thats what I meant that stuff...
Like six people all talking at once, out loud different stories at different speeds .
My brain warns me if I dont get it out of earshot it WILL grow a tumour.
I was trying to understand why, like you my musical apreciation spans many genres, The only thing that bores me (apart from the "J" word)is if I am at someones house and they have "every record" that blah did, or blah band and nothing else.
If they have Liszt,siouxsie and the banshees,fairport convention,Lou read, beethoven, Be-bop-deluxe, Tchaikovsky, Amy whinehouse even... amongst many others, then I am interested,because they have a diverse love of music, and not a restricted one.
At least my brain is in a minority of two now! lol.

But I wish I understood whats missing in my brain that other folk have working in theirs.
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1673940 - 05/08/11 09:22 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1631
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Rostosky

But I wish I understood whats missing in my brain that other folk have working in theirs.



That sums it up. You're not alone with that one. Join the human race, as it were. wink
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1673942 - 05/08/11 09:23 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5277
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Oh, and jazzprof, that Nat Kind Cole was the tops.

Cathy
_________________________

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#1673945 - 05/08/11 09:26 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Look here is a link to the sort of jazz i mean, I just went to Youtube and found it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HN3nS5rUNs


Hmmm, this is pretty tame I'd say smile. I'm curious, do you find that they don't sound like they are together or does it seem to fit together but just sounds random to you? I'd like to try to help you figure out what it is and maybe even give some tips on how to hear it differently. Of course, no offense if you're just not interested. I will say that I once didn't get this kind of stuff either, but now I'm into things way more "out there" than the MJQ. I just knew there had to be something there that people liked and that's what I wanted to understand... long story short, I ended up with a masters in jazz piano laugh.

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#1673949 - 05/08/11 09:37 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Scott Coletta]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Glen, If I understood the more abstract form I would be better informed opinion wise??
Is that the same as If I had the recipe for my mums shepherd pie it would suddenly stop tasting like catfood?

I am totally informed about motorcycle accidents, having worked in a motorcycle shop..but I still dont like them.

I dont see how mentally disseminating what my brain finds unacceptably abstract ( as in the link example) will allow my ears to enjoy it.
I admit I didn't know Nat king cole and tiger rag , midnight in moscow was all classed as jazz. so indeed I do like somethings that come under the heading Jazz... its the stuff in the link's ilk I think is called modern jazz that I dont seem to be able to get on with. My mind wants a piece of music to have a melody, I need to find out why this is so.
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1673953 - 05/08/11 09:44 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: Rostosky

I have never heard Eric Saties vexations in their full "repeat 800 times" entirety, but I would rather than this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HN3nS5rUNs



To appreciate this kind of jazz you have to try to understand the structure. You had mentioned earlier that you hate jazz that doesn't have a melody. This one actually does have a melody. The tune is called "Django" and is a tribute to the great gypsy guitarist Django Reinhardt. The piece starts with a statement of the theme (also known as "the head"). This is played by the vibes, with some accompaniment by the others, between 0:44 and 1:24. See if you can identify and hum the melody.

After the statement of the "head" the vibist launches into an improvisation. It is not free improvisation but one that follows the harmonic structure of the piece. You can hear the pianist playing the chords that underlie the piece, along with some embellishments. After the vibist plays his solo the pianist takes his turn at improvisation. It's like a theme and variations.

At the end they restate the theme. Can you recognize the theme when it comes back?
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1673955 - 05/08/11 09:48 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Scott Coletta]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Scott I am totally interested.....and confused, I feel confident that with help I could understand the non-melodic abstract stuff as to how its constructed... I just dont think I could like something without a melody. Yes it does sound random, worse, it sounds like if it was words it would be "speaking in tongues"
Lots of folk do love jazz, and I know they are far cleverer than I could be, so I know there must be something that gives enjoyment to so many people, My brain says people love it, my ears say " Q tips please"
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1673965 - 05/08/11 09:59 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Scott I am totally interested.....and confused, I feel confident that with help I could understand the non-melodic abstract stuff as to how its constructed... I just dont think I could like something without a melody. Yes it does sound random, worse, it sounds like if it was words it would be "speaking in tongues"
Lots of folk do love jazz, and I know they are far cleverer than I could be, so I know there must be something that gives enjoyment to so many people, My brain says people love it, my ears say " Q tips please"



Well, glad to hear that you would like to try! For now I'll just say that the melody is always "there" even during the so-called non-melodic parts. Also, what jazzyprof said about the head and chord changes is right. I'm checking out for tonight but I'll put something together with this tune that I think might help and post it tomorrow and we'll go from there.

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#1673972 - 05/08/11 10:11 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Scott Coletta]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Jazzyprof....
To answer your question about the theme.. I had to go and listen to it again... (thanks! lol) seriously, yes there was a melodic theme at the begining , but, then when the (procrastination my ears say) "improvisation" happened any theme just seemed to vanish and I had to listen to it all the way through untill the end when the short melodic theme came back ...
I did this because I have respect for Django and the difficulties he overcame as to physical problems what with the fire , but I only found that out on wickepedia a few moments ago.
At first I mixed him up with the great Paco Pena, whom I could listen to all day....Flamenco is melodic to my ears. .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG9ctrS0xQE
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1673976 - 05/08/11 10:15 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Here's the sheet music. Django
Try playing the theme (head). You'll see what a lovely, haunting melody it is. Note the chord symbols written above the melody. During the solos the players follow the chord structure and may play melodic lines that outline the harmony...what some call "harmelody".

You will notice that in this particular piece, the "A" section is the theme. The "B" and "C" sections do not have a melody but are just a set of chord changes over which the players improvise. If you listen to the improvisation carefully you may be able to tell what the underlying harmony is. Try listening to the improvisation while following the chord changes ("B" and "C" sections) on the sheet music.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1673982 - 05/08/11 10:22 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Scott Coletta]
FormerFF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 476
Loc: Roswell, GA, USA
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Look here is a link to the sort of jazz i mean, I just went to Youtube and found it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HN3nS5rUNs


Hmmm, this is pretty tame I'd say smile. I'm curious, do you find that they don't sound like they are together or does it seem to fit together but just sounds random to you? I'd like to try to help you figure out what it is and maybe even give some tips on how to hear it differently. Of course, no offense if you're just not interested. I will say that I once didn't get this kind of stuff either, but now I'm into things way more "out there" than the MJQ. I just knew there had to be something there that people liked and that's what I wanted to understand... long story short, I ended up with a masters in jazz piano laugh.


I agree, I thought that MJQ piece was quite pleasant. There is some jazz i rather like, and there is some, say like Ornette Coleman, I just don't get.



To me, this sounds like noise.
_________________________
Piano self teaching on and off from 2002-2008. Took piano instruction from Nov 2008- Feb 2011. Took guitar instruction Feb 2011-Jul 2013. Can't play either. Living, breathing proof some people aren't cut out to make music.

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#1673992 - 05/08/11 10:35 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
FormerFF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 476
Loc: Roswell, GA, USA
If you need to get that Ornette Coleman piece out of your head, listen to this much more melodic music:



No need to watch, as it's just a static image, just listen.
_________________________
Piano self teaching on and off from 2002-2008. Took piano instruction from Nov 2008- Feb 2011. Took guitar instruction Feb 2011-Jul 2013. Can't play either. Living, breathing proof some people aren't cut out to make music.

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#1673998 - 05/08/11 10:39 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
findingnemo2010 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 1491
classical>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
_________________________
music to me is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle
i call it the paino because its where i put all my pain

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