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#1674017 - 05/08/11 11:06 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
steveMac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 154
Loc: El Paso, TX
I know exactly how Rostosky feels. All the voices talking at once is a good analogy. It certainly causes a very strange emotion unlike any other music i have experienced. I too have a wide interest in different types of music but modern jazz, though maybe not all of it, leaves me feeling like screaming. It is akin to having toothache. It really is bizarre.

It just seems to go on and on without ever resolving.
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#1674018 - 05/08/11 11:06 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
TX-Dennis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 4126
Loc: Texas
Well, I like SOME jazz. I don't think that makes me more or less intelligent than some one who hates it, though. I do not like what I consider to be the more atonal and almost non musical forms of jazz. I do like MJQ. I really don't think they were "abstract" or atonal at all. Ornette Coleman and the like, though, I can really do without. That is what I would consider as abstract music. I am also not fond of Joe Sample and most other so-called "smooth jazz" artists. I find them overly repetitive and somewhat boring. Maybe there is something wrong with me?

Please discard the idea that there is something wrong with you, Rostosky. That certainly isn't the case. You, like me, just know what you like.
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#1674023 - 05/08/11 11:12 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Its getting hard to try and answer everyone but here goes....Jazzyprof, (its 4 am in here in the UK!) I will check out the sheet music in the morafternoon tommorrow!
The chords are not very familier with me so I will need to do quite some work....but will try to see just why I find the whole thing distastefull soundwise.
I will get back to you tommorrow night after trying to disect it some. FormerFF that ornette is not so much "dancing in your head " If given the choice I would prefer a running two stroke chainsaw be surgically implanted in my head then hear that ever again.
"Noise" was a very fine attempt at definition Sir, but a whole new word needs to be invented for that particular sound, if God sent an angel to visitate upon me and the angel said "that is played in Hades 24/7"
(a.) I wouldn't be surprised
(b.) I would take a vow of celibacy and become a nun.

Scott , thanks look forward to it.


Edited by Rostosky (05/08/11 11:15 PM)
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#1674036 - 05/08/11 11:31 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: FormerFF]
Lefty Chev Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 377
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: FormerFF

I agree, I thought that MJQ piece was quite pleasant. There is some jazz i rather like, and there is some, say like Ornette Coleman, I just don't get.



To me, this sounds like noise.


This is the stuff that I just don't like. The one above was pleasant, but I personally found it boring. I didn't hate it though.

What I really really love though is jazz with other genres like blues and rock. I'm talking about things like Stevie Ray Vaughn's Rivera Paradise or Lenny or anything by the band Morphine. I wish there was more music like that.

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#1674041 - 05/08/11 11:39 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: Rostosky

The chords are not very familier with me so I will need to do quite some work....but will try to see just why I find the whole thing distastefull soundwise.

Don't worry about the chords then. Just play the bass note, i.e. if you see a chord symbol G7 for example, just play a low G. If you follow along with the solo this way while counting the rhythm you'll be able to make sense of the cacophony...um, improvisation.

Here's another cool version of Django: Grant Green
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#1674111 - 05/09/11 02:52 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Rostosky -- it seems to me that you're not really saying you don't like jazz, you're saying that you don't like the kind of jazz that you don't like. But isn't that true for everybody?

Anyhow, what does it matter what kind of music you like? It's not like there isn't a lifetime's supply of music in just about every genre.

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#1674136 - 05/09/11 04:26 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
cruiser Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 1171
Loc: Cornwall, England
Rostosky, as others have posted, I also know exactly where you're coming from.

In recent months I've tried very hard to "learn" to appreciate the more "purist" kind of Jazz, for want of a better description. I've even spent quite a lot of money on several albums by Bill Evans, Ahmad Jamal, Thelonius Monk, Bud Powell etc. I even bought the de rigeur jazz Mile Davis album, "Kind of Blue". Most of what I've listened to does nothing for me at all, except bore me.

Jazz has so many sub-genres that I don't think one can generalise and say that they "hate jazz" per se. For example, one of my favourite recent discoverys is Keith Jarrett's "Köln Concert".

However, my time and money was not wasted. The process has been illuminating and has clarified for me the kind of music that really moves me, and that is mostly but by no means only, "classical".


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#1674214 - 05/09/11 08:28 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: cruiser]
Cobra1365 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 261
I'm OK with a lot of the Jazz music (some of it can be a bit chaotic to me). But, I feel like you do about Ragtime. It just doesn't do anything for me and I have no interest in playing it.
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#1674227 - 05/09/11 08:43 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: jotur]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2402
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: jotur
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Thats how much it actually "jars" in my brain.
The experimental music of tangerine dream and pink floyd as well as the velvet underground never had that effect upon me.
I have never heard Eric Saties vexations in their full "repeat 800 times" entirety, but I would rather than this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HN3nS5rUNs



<snort> Now see, I liked that laugh

Guess there's no accounting for taste, said the old lady as she kissed a cow. . .

Cathy



I loved it! I just bought one of their albums (MJQ) a few months ago. I love jazz, but can't play it.
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#1674240 - 05/09/11 09:05 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: TrapperJohn]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1227
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Originally Posted By: TrapperJohn
Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
I can't stand Bach or Mozart, they bore me and I can't listen to them long.


Bach I can almost understand - but the only people who say they don't like Mozart are those who have never heard Mozart...

Trap


I have listened to and played plenty of Mozart. Still bores me. I really don't think it's necessary to understand why, I just don't like it.

You obviously do like it and that's fine too.
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#1674256 - 05/09/11 09:33 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: kevinb]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Rostosky -- it seems to me that you're not really saying you don't like jazz, you're saying that you don't like the kind of jazz that you don't like. But isn't that true for everybody?

Anyhow, what does it matter what kind of music you like? It's not like there isn't a lifetime's supply of music in just about every genre.


+1.

OP's statement that he doesn't like jazz because it doesn't provide a hummable tune is interesting to me. It put me in mind of a quote I saw on the quote-of-the-day page the other day:

"Classical music is the kind we keep thinking will turn into a tune."
Kin Hubbard (1868 - 1930)

Just goes to show... different strokes for different folks.
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#1674265 - 05/09/11 09:48 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Glen, If I understood the more abstract form I would be better informed opinion wise??
Is that the same as If I had the recipe for my mums shepherd pie it would suddenly stop tasting like catfood?



That's the best analogy I've heard in quite some time. thumb
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#1674269 - 05/09/11 09:52 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Sparky McBiff]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1636
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Glen, If I understood the more abstract form I would be better informed opinion wise??
Is that the same as If I had the recipe for my mums shepherd pie it would suddenly stop tasting like catfood?



That's the best analogy I've heard in quite some time. thumb


Being informed about something often has little to do with whether it will be favored or not. If anything, it might work the other way around.

That analogy does not address my comment. I only offered forth an idea that might help the OP better understand his perspective. I really don't care if the OP embraces jazz or not. Some of it I don't care for either. It matters not.
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#1674285 - 05/09/11 10:15 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
How can this not put a smile on your face, can you really dislike something like this?

"Oh! Good Grief" by Vince Guaraldi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfo2rgq4u10
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Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#1674312 - 05/09/11 10:54 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Ok, here goes! First off, I decided that Django isn't the best example for trying to do this mainly just because of it having sections where there is no composed melody, just improvisation over set chord changes. Best to save that for later.

So I chose Autumn Leaves which if you don't know it already, has a very beautiful melody. Here's a "non-jazz" version sung by Nat King Cole:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kP8jPa1wCg

Now we'll look at the same tune as played by Joe Henderson on tenor sax, Wynton Kelly on piano, Paul Chambers on bass, and Jimmy Cobb on drums. This was recorded live in 1968 and would be considered by most to be fairly mainstream, straight ahead jazz. It's an interesting example because the melody is never played outright. But nevertheless, the form is adhered to strictly. It starts with an 8 bar vamp on G minor and then goes right into the chord changes. What I've done here is record the melody over the entire tune. This way, hopefully, you can hear how the improvisation is always connected to the melody by the underlying harmonic sequence, which they have in common. It may still seem random at first, but if you listen long enough it should start to jump out at you. This tune is nice and long so you'll have plenty of time to listen. smile

http://www.box.net/shared/bs7yfdmu47

Also, here is the lead sheet, which notates the melody and basic chord changes. This is the framework for how a jazz musician thinks. Melodic and harmonic improvisation is then applied to this based on theoretical relationships. The goal is to create something spontaneous, that is connected to the original form by it's shared harmonic and melodic traits without deviating from the pulse set by the original melody and harmony. I would suggest reading along with this while you listen.

http://www.box.net/shared/qtxa9ubu5f

See what you think and let me know.

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#1674316 - 05/09/11 11:08 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Scott Coletta]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1636
Loc: Colorado
Well said, well done, Scott!
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#1674367 - 05/09/11 01:04 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Scott Coletta]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Ok, here goes! First off, I decided that Django isn't the best example for trying to do this mainly just because of it having sections where there is no composed melody, just improvisation over set chord changes. Best to save that for later. . . . . . .

Well written Scott!
+1
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#1674397 - 05/09/11 02:01 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Scott, this is just the sort of explanation of jazz I needed a few years ago. I did work it out in the end. But it was awful difficult to get jazzers to make any kind of sense to me.

To the OP: some kinds of jazz make me nauseous, like car sickness.
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#1674494 - 05/09/11 05:06 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Scott Coletta]
MaryBee Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 1187
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Scott, that's great. I, too, am one of those people who don't understand jazz. What a nice introduction you provided! After listening to your version with the melody overlay, I wanted to hear it without. I found this one, which is not quite as long as yours. Do you have a link for another that might be good to listen to?
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#1674542 - 05/09/11 06:34 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Scott, back now after a sleep.
I thought we were going with django? I should have said I had a chord book to refresh on unfamilier chords like Bbm6/f and Eb7b9 ... anyways I just got back from checking those chords and the goal posts moved to Nat King Cole again!... but not before you mentioned "sections where there is no composed melody" in django.
For me to keep up we have to stick to something...
and django was an example of the type of jazz I cannot abide.

But I went with you onto Autumn leaves....
I was intently listening to Nat singing, hoping that something would happen and it did , it happened at 1min 30 seconds in exactly, Nat stops singing , but more importantly the strings start to play, I listened to the strings and my brain shouted the words "oh wonderfull world, a passing dream, just flight of fancy"
I tried to ignore that but couldn't, and a quick replay of the string section had me routing through my albums like a lunatic....
Something was telling me I had heard a variation on the string theme with added call and answers from something about 35 years ago.
It turned out I had leant the album to a friend, so I phoned him, he emailed me the track in question, I created a youtube account and uploaded it which took ages... it's not jazz, but it seems to have a relation to the string "theme" in Nat king cole...
You have gone to a lot of trouble to explain things, so I went to a lot to show I was listening....
So it's ten mins long, but the Autumn leaves Jazz piece that you were kind enough to play the melodic line on was thirteen minits and I listened to all of that..more on that later.
If you would listen to my link just to let me know If there is a relation between the string theme in autumn leaves and the piece I have given a link to? I guess you will not like it as music, but this is just a theoretical question.
It was written by a band called the Enid, to express fear over nuclear anihilation that spoilt our teenage years in the seventies!

Anyways back to the second link you gave me....
I found myself trying (unsuccessfully ) to tune out the horrendous saxaphone, I just wanted it to stop, so I could only hear the piano and bass. I could do this,but the more I did it, the more the sax annoyed me.
For me this is a classic example of "if there is no melody written , playing what sounds like 'just anything' will not do." And for me the sax sounded like it was just playing "anything" not just like it should be in a different song altogether, but that it should be in a different town altogther.
I do not have problems with the sax per-se , in fact I reckon one of the best solos ever was done by saxophonist wesley magoogan, who tragically will never play again.

my link for autumn leaves string theme comparison......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26dB_5BATNI


And for Saxophonic bliss, this could repeat for ever, and I would never tire..........from "will you" Hazel o conner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMakuuEK30M
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1674584 - 05/09/11 08:11 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Rostosky... don't sweat it, we tried! Joe Henderson's playing is a bit intense there at times smile. Just in case you feel like trying a little more, here's a version of Autumn Leaves that's a little easier on the ears, especially when Miles plays. Just try to keep the melody in mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPHtQn1t1n4

I listened to the track by the Enid. The melody when the lyric is "a passing dream" is the same as the opening fragment of the melody of Autumn Leaves. That's some good hearing on your part! Also, the sax playing from "Will You" is well done. That's improvised... while it's not in a jazz style, it's the same idea as far as playing something connected to an underlying harmonic sequence.

Also, to everyone else who's benefited from the Autumn Leaves recording and explanation... I'm glad I could help!

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#1674617 - 05/09/11 08:45 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Scott Coletta]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Scott... I see a cunning plan here, hammer my ears into bleeding with Joe henderson, and then while I am stupified get me to listen to Miles Davis's version knowing that as it isn't "as bad" my brain will tell me that it may be good, using the principal that anything at all can't be as bad as Joe henderson! lol.. I agree,it is easier on the ears..

Thanks for saying good hearing on my part.
So if my ears are OK, its a cranial thing!
Music is so odd we all have ears, we all have brains that process the sound our ears give them yet we all feel differently about it. What a wonderfully complex study it is.
Making connections can be a bugbear sometimes, I cannot help doing it.
Another connection I seem to have made will probably get people angry.....but here goes...

Disregarding personal problems,the media,Hype, and jealousy..
can you here at all any echoes of the great Billy Holiday in Amy whinehouses vocal style?
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1674630 - 05/09/11 09:09 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5284
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Scott - that was great! Thanks so much for taking the time do this - it made a huge difference! Well done.

Cathy
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#1674695 - 05/09/11 10:56 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
gahdzila Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 175
Scott - that was EXTREMELY helpful! Thanks!

It still isn't really my thing, but at least now I can understand it a little more. THANKS!!!!!

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#1674878 - 05/10/11 07:50 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2402
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Thanks EVERYONE for a great discussion! Here is yet another excellent example of the benefit of these forums.

Griffin
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#1675005 - 05/10/11 11:03 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: griffin2417]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
Rostosky. You mention Billie Holiday. If you listen to her, you are listening to some of the very best that have been done in jazz. On that level you have only Charlie Parker and Billie Holiday.
The Davis Cannonball version of Autumn Leaves gets better every time I hear it.

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#1675035 - 05/10/11 11:57 AM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: cubop]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Sorry should have said I have only heard Billie Holidays most popular songs.. But these have a tune, a tune that you can come away singing or humming or whistling like say "summertime"
I admit I didn't realise that jazz had so many 'sub-divisions'within it as a genre, and I have learnt a lot off the folk here in that respect; many thanks to all.
So , In short the type of jazz I hate is the stuff that doesnt have a written melody line for more bars than there are grains of sand in the desert.Or so it sounds like to me. It just screams elevators, shopping isles, and 1970's films where they are trying to portray a 'trendy' party in a large hotel room,where the men wear green flared pants and when a downstairs neighbour comes up to see what all the 'noise' is about, some 'dude' with an afro haircut has a go at the neighbour with the usual words "hey why are you trying to spoil our vibe man"

These pictures jump into my mind whenever I hear that type of jazz it just sounds to me like much "chatter" were there are many conversations in a foreign language.

As to miss whinehouse, I just heard some nuances in her voice and vocal inflections that left me thinking I had heard similar before somewhere, what exactly made the connection to Billie holiday I cannot say.

Other music, classical included, conjures up quite different pictures in my mind and has diffeent affects upon my body, like goose bumps etc.
Jazz that has no discernable melody has a seriously negative affect on me.
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1675042 - 05/10/11 12:07 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
Jazz, like classical, is too broad a category to dismiss as one.

I like some Jazz, especially Blues-based Jazz, such as Jimmy Smith, Jimmy McGriff.

Smooth Jazz, however, cuts cross-grain with me, and makes me want to run in the opposite direction. I think I am pre-programmed to not like Major 7ths!

So does much of "Contemporary Christian" --- not the words, but the music.

ps...I have an acclaimed Jazz singer, Ms. Sybil Gage, performing one of my original compositions on my new CD. Google her if you like.

pm me for CD details.
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#1675056 - 05/10/11 12:26 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: rocket88]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
Rostosky. I cannot think of any better approach to Jazz than listening to Billie Holiday. For the very good reason that you are already at the core and the very heart of Jazz. If you have not heard the tune, you will find "Mandy is two" on Youtube. Charlie Parker will be somewhat more difficult to approach.

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#1675133 - 05/10/11 03:13 PM Re: why do I hate jazz? [Re: Rostosky]
AnonymousInvention Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 142
Loc: Florida
Different people like different music. Pretty much end of story. Doesn't matter if it's the most wonderfully technically composed and performed work. You like it or you don't. I played rock (1960s), then heard Stravinsky and went classical (1970s getting my degree), etc. and it wasn't until about 5 years ago that I became interested in jazz. Now I like all of them and write fusion music borrowing elements from each genre as I think they apply.
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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Noodling board
by Maarkr
04/20/14 10:20 PM
New Movement Composed "To Rule" 4/20/2014
by hsheck
04/20/14 10:17 PM
Understanding Sharps
by imustlearn
04/20/14 08:18 PM
When a beginner is not a beginner anymore?
by Eight Octaves
04/20/14 08:09 PM
DEBUSSY-"Serenade for the Doll" from 'Children's Corner'
by Hal Freedman
04/20/14 07:14 PM
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