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#1675357 - 05/10/11 11:19 PM Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana NEARLY OVER!!!
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
It has been over a year that I have been searching for a new DP, and I want to thank the many thoughtful contributors who have taken the time to share their experiences and thoughts.

Several times I thought I had found the right DP, and then news of a new one would break, and then another. I was very excited by the development of Roland's SN piano sounds; and several other manufacturers came out with promising hardware: then just as it seemed that the ground was fertile with fine contenders, each one was toppled from its throne.

The Yamaha CP5 seemed not to excite many members of this forum, and left me unfazed when I finally got to try it out. The RD700NX, which I tried last week, didn't excite me, though it is certainly a very useful tool with a great action. I haven't been able to find either a Kawai MP10 or a Nord Piano to try out. (I was in LA 2 weeks ago, London the week before that, and could absolutely kick myself for not making the time to visit a couple of music shops).

The Kawai sounds interesting but I haven't been able to find one to test; and I've really enjoyed the samples that folks from this forum have posted of the Nord Piano (thanks for that). Now it appears that there are issues with all of these boards (except the CP5): keyboard inconsistency on the Kawai, cut off notes on the RD, and keyboard longevity issues on the Nord. Thanks, Zac for keeping us posted about yours - I am very keen to know what Nord does for you about this. It would also be great to know if any other Nord Piano owners have this experience.

At this point, I'm too confused to think, so I'm asking members of the pianoworld community for your thoughts on these issues.

Many thanks for your input,
Jonathan


Edited by 10fingers (05/25/11 07:23 PM)
Edit Reason: new information

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#1675371 - 05/10/11 11:55 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 854
Loc: Lakewood, CA
You will not likely find a perfect digital paino. They all have flaws no matter what brand you look at or how much money you spend. The same can be said about an acoustic piano. All pianos whether digital or acoustic will require maintenance on the action. Some sooner, some later. Therefore, it is important to realize that perfection is subjective. What's right for one won't be right for another. Where digital pianos are concerned perfection is usually a compromise.

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#1675409 - 05/11/11 01:59 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
James Pun Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/11
Posts: 113
I am in a similar situation. Coming from the internet industry in which amazing things happen every day, I am disappointed that all the new technologies did not translate into solid advancement of DPs. The latest Yamahas and Rolands did not meet my expectations. The Kawai MP sounds interesting but with their poor distribution I haven't been able to try one.

Perhaps you will not find a perfect piano at your price range, have you looked at the V-Piano or Yamaha Avant Grand? I believe at a higher price range there's enough resources to do the action properly and implement the acoustics similar to real pianos.

I recently got the Nord Piano as I am looking for portability and good sound, so the Nord worked for me.
_________________________
Nord Piano | Yamaha S90ES | Yamaha MOX 8 | Neumann U87 | Metric Halo 2882

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#1675412 - 05/11/11 02:26 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: James Pun]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA

Thanks for your responses, guys.
Originally Posted By: James Pun
I recently got the Nord Piano as I am looking for portability and good sound, so the Nord worked for me.

James, are you enjoying your Nord as much as Zach seems to enjoy his? And what of the action?
Originally Posted By: James Pun
have you looked at the V-Piano or Yamaha Avant Grand?
I really appreciated the connection between the action of the V and the sound more than in any other piano I've tried. Liked the Avant Grand action, but didn't feel the same connection between keyboard and sound as with the V-piano. They're both out of my price range, unfortunately.

Galaxy, I used the word 'nirvana' because with all the hype over the recent new arrivals, I was expecting to get a bit more excited. I wasn't really expecting perfection smile

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#1675451 - 05/11/11 06:03 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5279
What's nirvana to one is something else to another, as the great Gautama would say grin.

After extensive auditions, I settled on the V-Piano, which I've been playing now for over a year, and love it more than ever (especially since I don't have to fiddle with its dials and knobs anymore). But though it's miles better than all other DPs and most of the uprights (and some grands) I've had to endure over the past decades, it's definitely still not perfection in any way. It doesn't give me the spine-tingling experience of presiding over a 9 1/2 ft Bösendorfer Imperial (costing 35 times as much...), but until I become a millionnaire and can afford one (and a mansion to put it in), the V-Piano will do nicely.

I find it helpful to write down in order of priority what your needs are in looking for a DP. Some people can't do without lots of gizmos and knobs and dials; others just want an instrument with great sound to play on. Nirvana will be different to those groups.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1675456 - 05/11/11 06:18 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
10fingers, you know, you can buy a piano you like best from all the ones you've played and then turn around and sell it in three years and buy something new and perhaps better. In another three years you simply repeat the process.

I don't have a love affair with my pianos, I play them and when the time is right, sell them and buy something newer and better.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1675461 - 05/11/11 06:34 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I don't have a love affair with my pianos, I play them and when the time is right, sell them and buy something newer and better.


Isn't that the definition of a love affair? wink

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1675484 - 05/11/11 07:52 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: Kawai James]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I don't have a love affair with my pianos, I play them and when the time is right, sell them and buy something newer and better.


Isn't that the definition of a love affair? wink

James
x


laugh
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1675531 - 05/11/11 09:35 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3294
I've played just about all the contenders. My personal preference is that the Roland FP-7F feels the best to play, the Bosendorfer ("Grand Imperial") sample in the Nord is the best sounding. But so much of this is personal preference, you really need to determine what feels and sounds best to you.

Here's one more wrinkle, though. I prefer the Nord Stage 2 as the vehicle of choice for that piano sample, because of its "long release" option. If you can get by with 73 keys, the new Electro 3 HP (which I haven't tried yet) also has long release, though it can't make use of the very best version of the Bosendorfer sample (with the full resonance features and the greatest number of samples). The Nord Piano does support all the functionality of the best sample, but doesn't have the long release control. And the tricky thing about trying these out in a store is that the display models probably don't have the best samples loaded into them! That said, you can tell a lot from what they do have, with whatever version of Grand Imperial is in them. But on the NE3-HP and Stage 2, do check the front panel and try it with and without the Long Release to see the difference.

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#1675884 - 05/11/11 10:18 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: bennevis]
James Pun Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/11
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: bennevis
After extensive auditions, I settled on the V-Piano, which I've been playing now for over a year, and love it more than ever


bennevis what is your speaker setup for the V-Piano?
_________________________
Nord Piano | Yamaha S90ES | Yamaha MOX 8 | Neumann U87 | Metric Halo 2882

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#1675900 - 05/11/11 10:42 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
James Pun Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/11
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Originally Posted By: James Pun
I recently got the Nord Piano as I am looking for portability and good sound, so the Nord worked for me.

James, are you enjoying your Nord as much as Zach seems to enjoy his? And what of the action?


I am lucky to know a prolific producer in Hong Kong. His works has piano parts from the Nord Stage EX and his chart toppers / piano riffs keep playing on Hong Kong radio/TV every day. He is also the producer of some tracks for my band's 2 albums, so how happy I am and how convenient it is to have the same piano sound in such portable format.

The current wave of modeled pianos (Roland SN and Yamaha CP5) are in my opinion taking a step backwards. Perhaps modeling is the long term solution, but the current modeling implementation cannot beat a good set of samples. I am a fan of Yamaha because of its overall keyboard action but the latest S90XS and CP's did not impress me. And I am puzzled why the RD700NX sounded horrible (boxy) when I auditioned it on a Roland KC 550 amp in the music store. On headphones the sound was too resonant and busy.

The Nord action on its own is not anything to rave about, but it connects to the sound well and I am quickly adjusted to it (I expect every hardware DP to have good key-sound connection anyways) I just hope the keys won't break on me. Perhaps the NP88 action does lack ppp, that's ok playing on stage and with a band. In the studio you may edit the midi to get to ppp. To be honest, modern music production has very little dynamic range so the NP88 is not a problem here.

I must say that when you first try the RD700NX action it does have a high quality and genuine feel. Roland needs to put more work into it in order to translate that into better sound and overall playing experience. And I do hope the NP88 comes with a Yamaha action, but the NP88 action in itself does not have anything jarring that takes away from the overall enjoyable playing experience.



Edited by James Pun (05/11/11 10:45 PM)
_________________________
Nord Piano | Yamaha S90ES | Yamaha MOX 8 | Neumann U87 | Metric Halo 2882

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#1675999 - 05/12/11 03:57 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: James Pun]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5279
Originally Posted By: James Pun
Originally Posted By: bennevis
After extensive auditions, I settled on the V-Piano, which I've been playing now for over a year, and love it more than ever


bennevis what is your speaker setup for the V-Piano?


I don't have speakers for my V-Piano: I use headphones (AKG K271 MkII) exclusively, because I am boxed in by neighbors 270 deg horizontally (and vertically) in my small apartment.

When I auditioned the DPs in various showrooms, I quickly discovered that some DPs with built-in speakers sounded cr*p on headphones, and also vice versa; so I never trusted any speaker set-up that dealers attached to the slab/stage DPs. And indeed, if I'd only heard the V-Piano through my dealer's speaker system, I probably wouldn't have ended up buying it - there was obvious distortion when I laid in with my full power (he probably didn't expect any customer to play Rachmaninoff on his DPs... grin).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1676072 - 05/12/11 07:34 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: James Pun]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3294
Originally Posted By: James Pun
And I am puzzled why the RD700NX sounded horrible (boxy) when I auditioned it on a Roland KC 550 amp in the music store. On headphones the sound was too resonant and busy.

Roland's KC amps generally sound pretty poor.

I haven't played the RD700NX, but I did play the FP-7N which I think has a similar (perhaps identical?) action and piano sound... and I also found it buzzy with headphones.

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#1676539 - 05/12/11 08:18 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: anotherscott]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: James Pun
And I am puzzled why the RD700NX sounded horrible (boxy) when I auditioned it on a Roland KC 550 amp in the music store. On headphones the sound was too resonant and busy.

Roland's KC amps generally sound pretty poor.

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. The time I spent with the RD700NX it was hooked up to a KC880 (which I had previously liked), and which had sounded good with a V-Piano. It seems that I should go back with my headphones and give the RD another chance.

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#1676694 - 05/13/11 01:01 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
10fingers,

I know it's frustrating trying to find the perfect DP, but unfortunately there isn't one, only a best set of compromises. My ultimate DP would be my NP88 with either the PHA III Ivory Feel of the Roland, RM3 Wooden Keys of the Kawai, or NW Stage of the Yamaha inside. I have to say I've become utterly spoiled with my NP88's level of flexibility and diversity of sounds. Plus the sounds are just killer. From the Bosendorfer to the C7 grands, to the Petrof and Schimmel uprights, to the killer selection of EPs. If you haven't played the NP88, definitely make an effort to.

As for my action, Nord is replacing the entire key bed. Their customer service is FIRST CLASS. I've been very impressed with our U.S. tech support guy for Nord, Pablo Mastodon. He's prompt, polite, and really cares about getting the job done. Nord actually awarded him and his company an Achievement Award.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1676708 - 05/13/11 01:28 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: PianoZac]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Plus the sounds are just killer. From the Bosendorfer to the C7 grands, to the Petrof and Schimmel uprights, to the killer selection of EPs. If you haven't played the NP88, definitely make an effort to.

As for my action, Nord is replacing the entire key bed. Their customer service is FIRST CLASS. I've been very impressed with our U.S. tech support guy for Nord, Pablo Mastodon. He's prompt, polite, and really cares about getting the job done. Nord actually awarded him and his company an Achievement Award.

Thanks for your thoughts Zachary: it has been largely your posts and the many fine recordings that have me interested in the Nord (you should be on commission)

Great news about Nord's response to your action issues - I'm keen to know whether it turns out this was just an anomaly, or what? The Fatar 1100 I once owned was undistinguished in its performance, but reliable for the several years I abused it.

Anyhow I will not buy another DP until I have checked out the Nord. I'm not looking for perfection, (though I wouldn't refuse it if it came along) - it's mostly the connection between key and sound that makes such a difference to me.

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#1677203 - 05/13/11 08:09 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Plus the sounds are just killer. From the Bosendorfer to the C7 grands, to the Petrof and Schimmel uprights, to the killer selection of EPs. If you haven't played the NP88, definitely make an effort to.

As for my action, Nord is replacing the entire key bed. Their customer service is FIRST CLASS. I've been very impressed with our U.S. tech support guy for Nord, Pablo Mastodon. He's prompt, polite, and really cares about getting the job done. Nord actually awarded him and his company an Achievement Award.

Thanks for your thoughts Zachary: it has been largely your posts and the many fine recordings that have me interested in the Nord (you should be on commission)

Great news about Nord's response to your action issues - I'm keen to know whether it turns out this was just an anomaly, or what? The Fatar 1100 I once owned was undistinguished in its performance, but reliable for the several years I abused it.

Anyhow I will not buy another DP until I have checked out the Nord. I'm not looking for perfection, (though I wouldn't refuse it if it came along) - it's mostly the connection between key and sound that makes such a difference to me.


Can I quote you and send it to Nord!? smile It's my pleasure helping out in any way I can. I had a lot of help from other forum members here when I was looking at the NP88. I think the Nord is a unique instrument in that it's sum is much greater than its parts. Although the action isn't as good as the Roland, Yamaha, Kawai DPs, it connects every bit as well and because of the splendid sounds plus dynamic pedal and string resonance modeling, the NP88 feels like am organic piece of gear. It certainly has its weaknesses, but the positive:negative ratio is probably 20:1. I won't be parting from my NP88 anytime soon. I look forward to your thoughts after you get a chance to play one.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1677632 - 05/14/11 03:42 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Zach, I had almost given up on finding an MP10 to try out, but after your latest post about the CA93/MP6 I'll just have to make it happen. How would you compare the MP6 with the NP88? And have you played the CA63?

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#1684558 - 05/25/11 07:29 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
So today I bit the bullet and spent over an hour on each of the CP5 and the RD700NX today, this time with my own headphones, and liked them both considerably more than the last time I investigated them through the store's sound system. The CP5's headphone preamp was not able to drive my cans to my preferred volume (something comparable to playing a real piano), so it was a slightly uneven contest.

I was much more impressed with the CP5 than on my first outing. The cans provided a far better sound than the (cheap) monitors the store was using. Whilst the action was light, I still found it very playable, and easy to get the nuance I sought. The operating system drove me bonkers, but obviously you would read the manual if you bought it. Intuitive it wasn't! It may sound silly, but I liked having the sequencer on board - it makes it so simple to record something, rather than firing up the computer. Unfortunately, whist I liked the AP sounds, it just wasn't loud enough in my cans to really listen to in depth, especially the lower velocity layers.

The RD700NX was infinitely improved through the headphones, compared to the amp it was put through last time I auditioned it. Why shops would even bother to set up a flagship DP these days with a mono speaker system beats me. Anyhow, I liked it a lot. Pianos were warm or not, as I chose. I spent more time tinkering with the parameters, and found the way the sympathetic resonance was implemented to be a little unnatural. But it seemed that with some effort one could figure out a great sound. Also, nice to have all the other sounds to play around with (don't you love the scat singing voices?). The other thing is, I realized that the action is very important to me, and the action of the RD is really excellent. It needs a more positive touch than the Yamaha, but that is better for my technique.

I would like to have tried out the competition, but as Dave Horne said, I can always sell up in a couple of years if I ever get my hands on either an MP10 or an NP and fall in love.

Now I'm just wondering whether the FP7-F has as much ability to change parameters as the RD - does anyone here know?

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#1684738 - 05/26/11 02:25 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
Aidan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Now I'm just wondering whether the FP7-F has as much ability to change parameters as the RD - does anyone here know?


Almost certainly not. For one thing, they are really aimed at two different markets. For another, V-Piano aside, Roland view the NX as basically the flagship of the stage piano range (certainly the one that will see most high-end pro and backline sales) so will protect it as such, feature-wise.
_________________________
Yamaha CP40 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361

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#1684741 - 05/26/11 02:33 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Now I'm just wondering whether the FP7-F has as much ability to change parameters as the RD - does anyone here know?


If you really want to change "parameters" (on a piano) spend the money to get the V-Piano. As it would be the best choice of all, no contest.

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#1684744 - 05/26/11 02:56 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: pv88]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Aidan
Almost certainly not. For one thing, they are really aimed at two different markets.

Thanks, Aidan - I take your point. I suppose the only thing that matters is, could I still tweak the parameters that make a difference to me? For instance, I love the string resonance on the nord piano, and was trying to replicate that today on the RD, with limited success.

Originally Posted By: pv88
If you really want to change "parameters" (on a piano) spend the money to get the V-Piano.

pv88 if money were no object I would get a v-piano because I really like it. However, in virtually any gig where I would notice much difference between that and a good rompler, I would likely be playing a real AP (and a good one at that), so the issue is a moot one.

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#1684747 - 05/26/11 03:09 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Hi 10fingers,

Yes, the "V" is quite expensive, although I am now making a valiant attempt to get one by saving back as much money as possible, on a monthly basis.

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#1685190 - 05/26/11 07:33 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: pv88]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: pv88
Yes, the "V" is quite expensive, although I am now making a valiant attempt to get one by saving back as much money as possible, on a monthly basis. Have found a very nice layaway deal with an online seller that is willing to work with me, until it is payed off. Will also be trying to sell one of my current digitals as well as use $1,500 in three EE savings bonds (which can be cashed in this August), so that I might have the V-Piano as early as December, 2011.

That is, if all goes as planned. If not, I continue saving into 2012.



Well, good for you for really going for it, pv88. I'm impressed any time someone waits to buy a toy until they can afford it (not something I'm good at). What happens to the money you've 'laid away' in the (unlikely) event you change your mind? Could you get a refund of all monies, or would you just have to apply it to some other product at the same merchant? I only ask because technology could have moved on - i.e. a new implementation of the modeling tech, and tastes can change too. Are you planning on gigging with the V?

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#1685194 - 05/26/11 07:40 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
Lefty Chev Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 377
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: 10fingers

Well, good for you for really going for it, pv88. I'm impressed any time someone waits to buy a toy until they can afford it (not something I'm good at). What happens to the money you've 'laid away' in the (unlikely) event you change your mind? Could you get a refund of all monies, or would you just have to apply it to some other product at the same merchant? I only ask because technology could have moved on - i.e. a new implementation of the modeling tech, and tastes can change too. Are you planning on gigging with the V?


That was my thought too. Why not just save the money yourself and buy one when you have it. There could be something better out or you could find a sale at the time when you have the cash. I don't see the advantage of giving someone else your money now for something you won't have until later.

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#1685327 - 05/27/11 01:19 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
marknz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 61
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
10fingers. I've owned the RD700NX now for 2 months and now know for sure I chose the right DP. I bought it without ever trying it on the basis of my history with Roland Stage pianos and with what I had read and heard online. Roland do themselves no favors with their almost non existent marketing when a new product like the 700NX is released. They certainly can learn from the other makers in this area.
Anyways I bought it with all the reported faults such as key top wear issues (hasn't happened) and note cutoffs (now a non issue)
At first I loved it, only finding the surface of the keys dry and the action a little hard at the bottom. These things I don't notice now. Then I was struggling to get the supernatural piano/electric piano sounds to sound as I wanted them too, I almost gave up and took it back. I have found after all the supernatural tweaking available , that the EQ settings are as vital to get the overall clarity or depth of bass needed to give you an awesome sound. The piano sounds aren't sampled off well known grands but all the same you can come up with something special. This board I'll have for a long while, I love it, but there is a learning curve involved and of allowing time to get
familiar with the way you can personalise the main sounds.
Hope this helps.
_________________________
Roland RD700NX, Korg SV1 88.

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#1685332 - 05/27/11 02:03 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Hi 10fingers,

I doubt that I would change plans in regards to getting a V-Piano, and the layaway gives me a goal to keep until it is paid for, unlike just saving money on your own and having temptation to dip into those funds for something else, and never reaching the original goal, etc.

As for gigging with the V-Piano, no, as it will be for home use only.

Would also like to see "V" technology reach other models.

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#1685337 - 05/27/11 02:15 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: marknz]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Hi marknz,

Looks like you had found a way to alter your settings to find just the right kind of sounds for what you play, etc. I believe that the Roland V-Piano also has a learning curve, as well.

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#1685365 - 05/27/11 05:13 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: pv88]
marknz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 61
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
PV88. Yes I'm very happy with the 700NX. I can't totally remove the metallic sound on the concert grand sound but it's only there when I'm playing ff or louder. At softer volumes it is very warm, rich and expressive sounding.

I'm of the opinion that the Roland V piano is the ultimate digital piano to date and that one day it will be a collector's item much like an old Fender Rhodes is today. Why? Because it is a model that Roland hasn't compromised on. It gives you the very best in technology and mechanics that they can come up with. It is the purist's digital piano but not for everyone.

The learning curve on the V is greater than the 700 NX because there is so much more you can do to change/enhance the sound, to personalise it to how you would like it to be. It may take a couple of months before you finally decide - Hey I've got it.
_________________________
Roland RD700NX, Korg SV1 88.

Thank God for the gift of Music

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#1685469 - 05/27/11 10:41 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
pv88, I've got a lot of respect for you for the way you are going about buying the V-Piano. You're doing it the old school way...err the correct way!

I once had a banker (who owned the bank) tell me when I was 17 trying to get my first car loan, "if you can't pay for it in cash, you can't afford it." My wife and I are good about paying off debt quickly, but I'm not the most patient man when it comes to wanting something...especially music related!

Good luck pv88! I hope like heck you're able to get your V-Piano sooner than later.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1685531 - 05/27/11 12:30 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: PianoZac]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 540
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Plus the sounds are just killer. From the Bosendorfer to the C7 grands, to the Petrof and Schimmel uprights, to the killer selection of EPs. If you haven't played the NP88, definitely make an effort to.

As for my action, Nord is replacing the entire key bed. Their customer service is FIRST CLASS. I've been very impressed with our U.S. tech support guy for Nord, Pablo Mastodon. He's prompt, polite, and really cares about getting the job done. Nord actually awarded him and his company an Achievement Award.

Thanks for your thoughts Zachary: it has been largely your posts and the many fine recordings that have me interested in the Nord (you should be on commission)

Great news about Nord's response to your action issues - I'm keen to know whether it turns out this was just an anomaly, or what? The Fatar 1100 I once owned was undistinguished in its performance, but reliable for the several years I abused it.

Anyhow I will not buy another DP until I have checked out the Nord. I'm not looking for perfection, (though I wouldn't refuse it if it came along) - it's mostly the connection between key and sound that makes such a difference to me.


Can I quote you and send it to Nord!? smile It's my pleasure helping out in any way I can. I had a lot of help from other forum members here when I was looking at the NP88. I think the Nord is a unique instrument in that it's sum is much greater than its parts. Although the action isn't as good as the Roland, Yamaha, Kawai DPs, it connects every bit as well and because of the splendid sounds plus dynamic pedal and string resonance modeling, the NP88 feels like am organic piece of gear. It certainly has its weaknesses, but the positive:negative ratio is probably 20:1. I won't be parting from my NP88 anytime soon. I look forward to your thoughts after you get a chance to play one.


Zach- do you feel like you are giving something up by not having the "long release" available in the Nord Stage 2 but not on the NP88. I could care less about organs and synths and it seems stupid to pay 1500 bucks more for "long release"- UNLESS it takes the sound- particularly for recording- to a much higher level. thoughts?
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1685534 - 05/27/11 12:39 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: marknz]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 540
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: marknz

The learning curve on the V is greater than the 700 NX because there is so much more you can do to change/enhance the sound, to personalise it to how you would like it to be. It may take a couple of months before you finally decide - Hey I've got it.


The learning curve of the V is more like a learning circle- just when you think you got it figured out you realize you are back where you started- at least for non-sound engineer types or non-piano tuners...!

I wish there were a forum site where people who really knew what they were doing moderated it. Like Pianoteq's- and the ability to upload custom settings for other users to download would be a huge plus. but i feel its a pretty small community
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1685542 - 05/27/11 01:00 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: bfb]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: bfb

Zach- do you feel like you are giving something up by not having the "long release" available in the Nord Stage 2 but not on the NP88. I could care less about organs and synths and it seems stupid to pay 1500 bucks more for "long release"- UNLESS it takes the sound- particularly for recording- to a much higher level. thoughts?


Honestly, unless you're doing a lot of recording with your keyboard, the Long Release would probably get lost in a live mix, which is where my NP88 spends most of its time. I hope they do upgrade the NP88 to incorporate the LR feature, but only to keep it as good of a DP as possible.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1685547 - 05/27/11 01:16 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: PianoZac]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 540
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
[/quote]

Honestly, unless you're doing a lot of recording with your keyboard, the Long Release would probably get lost in a live mix, which is where my NP88 spends most of its time. I hope they do upgrade the NP88 to incorporate the LR feature, but only to keep it as good of a DP as possible. [/quote]

But- if your sole purpose WAS to record, are you thinking it would add a lot? i know you are in nashville- i'm in Atlanta (you can't find squat to sit down and play in atlanta- can't find a cp1, can't find a NP88 or Stage 2. its a joke- but i guess that i what internet retailers have done to squash bricks and mortars retailers). If recording were your primary objective, would that change your thinking? but not classical- jazz-influenced arrangements of pop/hymns/ traditional americana stuff.. (probably not as demanding legato-wise as classical...)
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1685572 - 05/27/11 02:01 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: bfb]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Originally Posted By: bfb


But- if your sole purpose WAS to record, are you thinking it would add a lot? i know you are in nashville- i'm in Atlanta (you can't find squat to sit down and play in atlanta- can't find a cp1, can't find a NP88 or Stage 2. its a joke- but i guess that i what internet retailers have done to squash bricks and mortars retailers). If recording were your primary objective, would that change your thinking? but not classical- jazz-influenced arrangements of pop/hymns/ traditional americana stuff.. (probably not as demanding legato-wise as classical...)

Well I think the LR feature would add some to the overall sound, but I've recorded my NP88 twice, once doing my own American Songbook stuff, and the other doing piano parts for a Country artist here, and both times, the engineers were blown away with the sound of my NP88. With or without the LR feature, the NP88 sounds great recorded. I was only saying that really the biggest benefit I see in the LR feature is recording, and like you said, that's mostly advantageous when playing legato. Fact is, who wants to play and record a bunch of classical on the NP88? You can play anything on it, and it responds really well, and connects superbly, but the action isn't fit for that kind of playing IMHO.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1685579 - 05/27/11 02:14 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: bfb]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3294
Originally Posted By: bfb
do you feel like you are giving something up by not having the "long release" available in the Nord Stage 2 but not on the NP88. I could care less about organs and synths and it seems stupid to pay 1500 bucks more for "long release"- UNLESS it takes the sound- particularly for recording- to a much higher level. thoughts?

Personally, from playing the Stage 2, I thought the Long Release was a substantial benefit. Enough so that, if I didn't want to spend the money on a Stage 2, if I could possibly live with 73 keys, I'd be inclined to buy the Electro 3 HP instead of the Nord Piano. Yes, in that case, you lose a different feature, you don't get the enhanced string resonance features, but if I had to choose, that's the trade-off I'd pick. I think the long release makes a more noticeable difference... at least it comes into play more often.

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#1685632 - 05/27/11 04:21 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: anotherscott]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 540
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
anotherscott, thanks for your response. i appreciate what you are saying. i play a lot of dissonant chords, a lot of flat 9th's and 13th's and sus chords and a lot of stride type left hand. so the shorter decay probably isn't the end of the world for me. i really liked the string resonance on the website samples, so i'm reluctant to give that up. i don't play legato unless i'm trying to sound country/folk james taylorish half-time stuff- and i kind of like a plucky sound with that since i'm trying to simulate a bit of acoustic guitar on the piano. my classical playing is something i gave up on about 45 years ago...

i sure wish i could play one of these things. if i could dump the v-piano for 4K i might do the stage 2. if i sit on the v -( somebody in one of these threads thought it might be a collectible some day?- sort of like a selectric typewriter..) the 2700 bucks sure is less painful. as the Wicked Witch once said, "oh what a world..what a world"..

zach- thanks also for your input. i like the fact your recording engineers liked it. they have highly trained ears. much more so than mine!
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1685717 - 05/27/11 07:59 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: bfb]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: bfb
if i could dump the v-piano for 4K i might do the stage 2. if i sit on the v -( somebody in one of these threads thought it might be a collectible some day?- sort of like a selectric typewriter..) the 2700 bucks sure is less painful. as the Wicked Witch once said, "oh what a world..what a world"..

Have you tried a pm to pv88? Sounds like you would both benefit...

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#1685722 - 05/27/11 08:11 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I believe he intends to purchase a brand new instrument, however it's still worth sending a PM.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1685833 - 05/28/11 01:14 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Originally Posted By: bfb
if i could dump the v-piano for 4K i might do the stage 2. if i sit on the v -( somebody in one of these threads thought it might be a collectible some day?- sort of like a selectric typewriter..) the 2700 bucks sure is less painful. as the Wicked Witch once said, "oh what a world..what a world"..

Have you tried a pm to pv88? Sounds like you would both benefit...


@ bfb & 10fingers, above:

I think James is correct when he says that I intend to buy a new Roland V-Piano, and not a used or demo model. I have been tempted to look at lesser priced pianos (like at eBay, for example) however, I really would prefer it to be brand new with the full Roland warranty behind it.

pv88

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#1685837 - 05/28/11 01:41 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: pv88]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3613
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: pv88
I can only hope that a V-Piano will be available to me (and it will not be discontinued), after I have eventually reached the final payment.


Your seller should have one put aside if it's on "layaway". That's actually what it means - they lay the product away in storage until you complete payment. You have an unusually long layaway period, but if it's a layaway, the product must be put aside to guarantee that it's available to you if you pay by the agreed deadline.

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#1685852 - 05/28/11 02:14 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: ando]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Hi ando,

I haven't gotten too far with this layaway as of yet, so what do you think are my best options?

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#1685868 - 05/28/11 03:03 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
What exactly is the benefit of this 'layaway' plan?

Would it not be better to put the money in a savings account, then purchase the instrument once you have accumulated enough funds?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1685872 - 05/28/11 03:32 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
pv88, did you mention what you will be using the 'V' for?

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#1685877 - 05/28/11 03:53 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: Kawai James]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
What exactly is the benefit of this 'layaway' plan?

Would it not be better to put the money in a savings account, then purchase the instrument once you accumulated enough funds?

Cheers,
James
x


James,

The benefit of the layaway (the way I see it) was to guarantee that I would in fact have an actual V-Piano to buy, regardless of how long it might it take me to save the money, on a monthly basis.

pv88

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#1685878 - 05/28/11 03:55 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
pv88, did you mention what you will be using the 'V' for?


Yes, it is for home use, only. To represent an "acoustic" grand, primarily.

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#1685880 - 05/28/11 04:11 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: pv88
The benefit of the layaway (the way I see it) was to guarantee that I would in fact have an actual V-Piano to buy, regardless of how long it might it take me to save the money, on a monthly basis.


I very much doubt the V-Piano will disappear any time soon. Even if Roland do decide to stop production (unlikely for the foreseeable future - or at least until the V-Piano 2 is launched), I expect you will still be able to buy brand new instruments for several years to come.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1685884 - 05/28/11 04:23 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: Kawai James]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
James,

That is good news to hear assuming that it is true (and, I hope you are right), although it could take me quite a while before the layaway is paid off.

Extra note:
I would very interested in seeing a "V-Piano 2," if they eventually do release a new model.

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#1686080 - 05/28/11 01:26 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: pv88]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: pv88

Yes, it is for home use, only. To represent an "acoustic" grand, primarily.


If it's for home use only, are there noise constraints or other factors preventing you from buying a real grand piano? There are VERY good deals to be found right now in the second hand AP market.

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#1686112 - 05/28/11 02:49 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Originally Posted By: 10fingers
Originally Posted By: pv88

Yes, it is for home use, only. To represent an "acoustic" grand, primarily.


If it's for home use only, are there noise constraints or other factors preventing you from buying a real grand piano? There are VERY good deals to be found right now in the second hand AP market.


I do not have space in my small place for an acoustic grand, and, I also want to be able to use headphones.

That is why the V-Piano appears to be the perfect choice.

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#1686116 - 05/28/11 03:03 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Then I second James's suggestion that you put the funds into a savings account until ready to purchase. Anything can happen to an internet store in six months. You have clearly shown that you have the will power to save the money, now just save it in an account that gives you a return, and over which you have total control.

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#1686130 - 05/28/11 03:27 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
[Edited]

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#1686514 - 05/29/11 11:23 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3294
I think lawaway only makes sense on an item that may not otherwise be available when you're ready to buy (something seasonal, or one-of-a-kind or has other kind of limited availability, or that may be discontinued but you want it anyway), where they will actually hold the item for you on premises; or during inflationary times, to lock in a price that may otherwise likely move higher.

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#1687526 - 05/31/11 02:21 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
I'm going to make one last attempt to track down both a Nord Piano and the Kawai MP10 and even the CA63. Then I'll order an RD700NX if no luck.

I've realized that it's not the end of the world if I don't make the best choice. The Roland is a very accomplished machine on which I can do good work AND have a lot of fun.

I did return to the shop last week, and played it again, just running through a KC880. Why they wouldn't at least run it through two speakers, I don't know. Anyway, it sounded okay, but nothing like through the headphones.

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#1687700 - 05/31/11 11:28 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
10fingers, may I ask what you're using this keyboard for primarily? If for gigging, I'd definitely try to play a Nord Piano. The 16lbs difference in weight between it and the RD700NX is HUGE. Also, you never get bored with the NP88. If your primary purpose is for a home DP, I'd take a long look at the MP10. Unfortunately, they're hard to find and right now, out of stock at most places.

Either way, as you said, the RD-700NX is a great board that you really can't go wrong with.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1687943 - 05/31/11 05:00 PM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Zachary, I will use this for very few gigs, so the heft doesn't matter so much to me. Even the RD would be a big improvement on my original RD700, which I seem to remember clocked the scales at around 70 lbs. My second DP (an absolute dog, I might add) was a Yamaha PF80, which must have run about 110lbs in its flight case!!! However I was fitter and stronger 30 years ago smile [Still, it about killed me carrying it up a flight of stairs in my London flat.]

I would love to try out the Kawai as well as the Nord, and will make one more attempt to locate them. James was kind enough to send me details of a Kawai contact in my area, but I never heard back from him (the contact). Seems a shame that a company can produce such fine instruments (I like their APs as well), but lacks the distribution to adequately reach the market place.

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#1688219 - 06/01/11 01:12 AM Re: Connundrum: frustrating search for DP nirvana [Re: 10fingers]
marknz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 61
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Actually you will find that your old RD700 (If that's the model you mean) is lighter than the new 700NX by half a kilo. The 700 being 24.5kgs and the 700NX being 25kgs. the case being exactly the same shape and dimensions. The old Roland RD300s was around the 70 pound mark you mentioned.
_________________________
Roland RD700NX, Korg SV1 88.

Thank God for the gift of Music

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