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Would you be able to point me to a (web) source for this temperament?

After 2 months, I find learning to set the pins the hardest. I feel fairly confident that eventually I will know how to set a scale, but as yet I don't feel I've improved in setting the pins properly.
I've begun to make notes of my unison tuning. If I do all three-stringed notes on the piano and come back to the piano a few hours later, maybe 10 of them need a little adjusting. When I check again next day, I still need to adjust maybe 5, and often there are a couple of new ones which didn't need to be touched at the first check! This could go on for days, there's always a couple of notes I'm not happy with, and it's not because the pins are loose.

@Mark: the temperament is included in the appendix section of the accu-tuner IV manual:

Accu-Tuner IV Manual (pdf, 750 KB)

Octaves this, ETDs that, beat rates, too! But ya know what? People continue to tune an excellent ET using the circle of fifths. And no matter what the temperament sequence, you don’t know if you have it until the ninth note.

But there is a real difference in using the circle of fifths: the fourths and fifths sound better! And remember that the circle of fifths is why there are 12 notes. And when it comes to the inevitable compromises that are required on some pianos, I’ll take better sounding fourths and fifths over progressive 3rds and 6ths any day of the week.

Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath!

Heaven help me, I agree with Jeff! :P

Uh, if you like I could edit my post

Does anybody happen to have a description of the circle of fifths tuning sequence and which tests are available along the way?

I am going to directly challenge this. I have seen the beatrate curves for RBIs on a Baldwin Studio as tuned by a Verituner. They were picture perfect. But I know how the SBIs would sound: HORRIBLE!.

It reminds me very much of the 70’s when I learned to tune. Strob-o-tuners were becoming popular because they were supposed to be more accurate. They didn’t know better, I guess. Oh, but now we do and the answer is modern ETDs? I do not buy it. Sure, if you cannot set a temperament aurally, you might as well use a machine. But that does not mean that a machine does a better job than someone that can tune aurally. Want to prove if you can really set an accurate aural temperament? Use the circle of fifths!

And another thing, what is this nonsense about “tonal” vs “atonal” temperaments? ET is omnitonal, not atonal. UT is … heck I don’t know what it is! It just sounds out of tune!

I agree with you on this also Jeff. My teacher in college twice demonstrated (on two different pianos)to my entire class that it is entirely possible to set a perfect E.T. using only 4ths and 5ths. It took him about 5 minutes and some backtracking and reconciliation of some intervals. It was explained to us that different pianos, as for size and scaling, presented extremely small variations to the amount of tempering and that with experience you come to recognize this and adapt. The fact that we as students did not even deal with other checks and intervals (other than the octave) for the first 3 months relayed the importance of SBI's to us in setting the temperament.

Later, as we progressed, we learned the other intervals and checks that are at our disposal, but the importance of the 5ths and 4ths was never ignored nor relegated to the back seat of a RBI driven temperament. It was also very important for us to reasonably recognize the (theoretically correct) F3-A3 beat rate. Although the application of it is not set in stone for all types and sizes of pianos in general, the deviancy from it is not that great either, that one should not bother to learn it.

Thousands of tuners have learned to tune in much the same way. There are other methods that take short cuts or completely avoid learning some of these rudimentary things. It also annoys me to no end when I come across an aurally set temperament with a beautifully cascading set of M3rds and I hear a beatless perfect fifth beside another one thats beating faster (to the correct side)than what the fourths are.

An interesting thing that I came across years later when incorporating an ETD in the setting of a temperament is that when i did my aural testing of the temperament, I have rarely had to adjust anything in regards to RBI's, but on more than a few occasions, I would tweak the SBI's to my satisfaction and do a quick check on the RBI's before moving on.

Here is a link to a book online. It is considered to be the standard way of tuning by 4ths and 5ths:

http://www.archive.org/stream/modernpianotunin00whit#page/n3/mode/2up

And here is a recent Topic on the subject with some variations:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1612251/Re:%204ths%20and%205ths,%20I%20love%20'em.html

The thing to remember is that every interval can be formed with 4ths and 5ths. By comparing the beatrates of these other intervals, errors in the 4ths and 5ths can be detected and corrected. With practice, the errors become smaller and less frequent. Then the errors in a piano’s scaling show up instead.

When you get past a certain level of tuning, it doesn't matter much where you start aurally. I speak a lot in favor of CM3's, and I always start by placing them, but then refine the temperament guided by 4ths/5ths.

I think pretty much everybody agree that both SBI's and RBI's are needed. Just as Jeff and Emmery, I give priority to the SBI's, and I believe most tuners do.

Please feel free to challenge this, it's just from the top of my mind.

If you will follow along, the recommendation I made suggested using a temperament location higher than an aural setting. This avoids the problems that you mention with the Baldwin studios because the temperament is then spread out with a hybrid method that leans heavily on the old aural tradition of using octaves/doubles/and octave fifth to place those tenor/bass notes. RBI's are ignored with this method.

As to tonal/atonal - look it up in the dictionary. A tuning without a built in tonal center is by definition atonal. You can call it omnitonal, but I don't think that is really how it functions. Tonal tunings on the other hand are just that - tunings that have a tonal center.

Ron Koval

Pat:

I certainly do not challenge how you tune. I do challenge how tuning sequences are explained. There is a strong insinuation that a firm ladder of CM3s is the only correct way to start a temperament and that these should not be touched after being set.

But what I find impossible to decide on, when I attempt to start with a ladder of CM3s and something needs to be adjusted, is if it the error is the F, the C# or both? It becomes ambiguous where the error is. There is a solution, but only for well scaled pianos. It is using ET via Marpurg with additional RBI checks immediately after tuning the temporarily tuned SBIs.

Ron:

Sure!

Here are definitions from the Merriam-Webster website:

Definition of TONALITY
1: tonal quality
2a: key 7 b : the organization of all the tones and harmonies of a piece of music in relation to a tonic
3: the arrangement or interrelation of the tones of a work of visual art


Definition of ATONAL
: marked by avoidance of traditional musical tonality; especially : organized without reference to key or tonal center and using the tones of the chromatic scale impartially


This has to do with written music NOT tuning theory!

But your suggestion of using an ETD to set the temperament only in a well scaled part of the piano is a good one. I wonder how a non-aural tuner is to know where this is.

Yes it has to do with written music - AND how a tuning can be constructed based on that theory of writing music, either tonal or atonal.

Usually about a half octave to an octave above the stringing break the scale of a piano becomes more consistent. On little spinets that means sometimes my two octave temperament may be from A4-A6!

Ron Koval

I have never felt the need for using CM3's in a temperament sequence. I understand that many people do, but my main complaint of it is that once you get above 8-10 bps on an interval, your aural perception of beat rates diminishes exponentially and the term "souring" is more applicable than "beat rate". In a practical sense of what you are doing it may not be as important but two well seasoned tuners can argue untill the cows come home about whether two sets of intervals comparitively are this or that when you get above this threshold.

I wouldn't entirely agree about most tuners refining the SBI's in this day and age. ETD users often ignore checking these intervals and let them sit wherever the machine leaves them. If the SBI's are not incorporated into the temperament sequence as a primary function aurally, you also run the risk with aural tuners that they skip refining some of them and move on, out of haste and speed.

I agree, and that's why I throw in the CM3's pretty fast, and spend more time on the refinement. To me, the CM3's get me close, fast, and the ladder of CM3's also helps me to find a good octave width.




Yes, and that goes to priority once more. But you may be right, maybe prioritizing SBI's isn't as common as I'd want it to be.

Jeff: I use something very close to ET via Marpurg for starters, then I go into comparing every note of the temperament against it's 4th and 5th. Then I start moving things around until I'm happy, kind of a molding method... The potterY temperament

I rarely have to move F3, and basically never A3.

I do not know if this is the best way to come out landing on your feet, but it works for me

Welcome to the wonderful world of tuning! For starters, congratulations on attempting to learn to tune aurally. While I perceive that RonTuner was being facetious calling aural tuning "quaint" and "noble" I actually agree in a literal way - it is quaint and noble, which is what makes it fun and rewarding. When you master it, you will feel part of an elite club of piano technicians that have taken the time and energy to learn the most basic skill of our craft. I have yet to meet someone who regrets having taken the time to learn to tune by ear. I have met many technicians who wish they could do it.

When I decided to pursue this as a career, I took a look at who the top piano technicians were in my region in order to know what my goals should be. Every one of them are excellent ear tuners. Some regularly use an ETD in their work, others don’t. But they all feel that aural tuning is an important foundational skill. Also, not having aural tuning skills will close certain doors to you. Many university jobs will not be available to you, and if you ever wanted to work for Steinway & Sons as a technician or contract tuner, you will be shown the door if you are dependent on an ETD.

One thing that comes to mind is that we don't know what kind of piano you are working on. If it is a console or spinet, achieving a "textbook" tuning will be an impossibility. I suggest not practicing on any upright under 45" or grand under 5'4". Otherwise the wacky tension changes that occur around the temperament of small pianos will really mess with your beat rates.


One of the problems beginners run up against is expecting too much of any temperament sequence. There is the hope that if you find the "right" sequence your temperament struggles will be over. Put that idea behind you. If you end up with a great temperament after one pass through your sequence consider yourself very lucky, and don't expect it to happen often.

The sequence, in most cases, is only roughing in the temperament. It's a starting place, not an end result. It's like the rough sandpaper you use before the fine sandpaper. So what you need now is a collection of temperament troubleshooting techniques that can refine your results.

When I’m refining a temperament I listen to parallel intervals up and down: 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths. I pick out the most out of place interval and then try to figure out where the problem is. Both notes are put on trial and the jury is a series of aural checks like contiguous 3rds and 4ths and inside 3rd/outside 6th test etc. If you think you may need to raise a note up slightly, you need to look how that change will affect all the other intervals associated with that note. Developing a good repertoire of checks is essential.

I have tuned using both the 3rd 6th type of approach, and have also used the old Braid White method. Either can be a great starting point. My approach now is a sort of hybrid of the two approaches. As time goes on, you will learn what works best for you.

One thing I highly recommend is developing relationships with skilled mentors. Find out who the very best technicians are in your region and seek them out. Be respectful of their time and be willing to pay them. In some cases, becoming a member of PTG can be a big help. This depends largely on your local demographics and the health of the local organization.