Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_note

This is basically what I mean. This is also the way I've seen it notated in arrangements.

The wiki page actually talks about your definition for guitar / bass. I was not aware of it. On the piano, I've seen if often used for Stride, where you may omit playing the chord, but you're still moving the arm.

I use the term ghost note loosely here, but the idea is to not play a not that you otherwise would typically play.

I guess the question is in improvisation, there is no missing note as you're making it up. Playing a fixed piece, then the definition is clear.

In my Walking Bass example, the concept is consistent with the wiki article since the ghost note is played more as a rhythmic thump than an actual note.

Perhaps you can clarify your intent. Is this for space?

I think it's easier to notice while playing triplets. Play 2 bars with just triplets, except don't play one note. You add an element of surprise by breaking the flow. So it isn't really a rest, it's part of the phrase.
I think the Halberstadt book talks about that, I could be wrong. But he mentions hearing even the notes that you don't play. That's sort of the idea here.

In the composition exercise, you can place them randomly, see what works. Then try and insert them on purpose.

In stride, the idea is to keep the flow going, while not necessarily sounding all the notes.

I think you are talking about different things. I have come across it in guitar - but didn't know what it was called. You just can't do that on a piano - you play a note, or you don't play it. There is nothing in between. Unless you just hit the piano-stool or something.

I think knotty means what jazzwee talked about by just missing out playing certain notes. Interesting idea but I've still not managed it.

I had an interesting lesson today. I was talking to my teacher about the Keith Jarrett touch (or my teacher's). I was asking him how Keith makes that beautiful melodic sound.

I found out that the RH solo lines are actually played louder than I originally realized and that it would take more power than I currently have. So I have to build more acceleration in my key strokes. Now I understand why Jarret practically leans on his melody fingers as he does in Somewhere Over the Rainbow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq0EWNuR1H8

The rest of the fingers are lighter of course. Now this was obvious in theory, but in practice, it was more than I thought.

Interesting. Not a skill that will come quickly, I think.

I've been doing a lot of scales lately. I'm amazed at how much weaker my left is than my right. That was never the case before.

Well fortunately TLT, many people who play, even pros, haven't developed this type of touch you only hear in the masters. So it's a holy grail.

That accent/swing practice actually develops this kind of control since it's sort of a legato training -- the accent has the effect of retarding key release (you know how I keep talking about holding the accent down longer).

Unfortuntately it doesn't help the LH. This may be why you're feeling a LH/RH difference.

I think so. I've never noticed this before. I'll settle for not being a master.

I think striving to be a master is fun Otherwise what would we have to do in our old age It is funny that I'm obsessed with Jazz piano but this does not make me money. So why do I do it?

Why do you do it?

Interesting question. I'm not sure - because it's there?

Why do you?

Obsession, addiction. I never understood those words until I experienced it myself when I went back to the piano Jan 2006. Can't understand how or why it happened. I just couldn't stay away from the piano.

Possibly the music satisfies something that has been missing in one's life. But, it is a harmless addiction -- unlike many other addictions.

I don't know why myself. But when I hear what's coming out from my playing as I get better, I get even more excited. So the urge increases rather than decreases

I've always liked to improvise (did so on guitar) so I guess that desire for expression was always there. But the piano is very powerful and you create the whole orchestral wall of sound all by yourself.

The reason we hang out in this forum is that our obsession goes beyond even the playing. We also want to talk about it

Internet addiction - also very powerful.

Like jazzwee, I like the idea of getting better, feeling that I can do something I couldn't do last week, and even if progress is very slow, feeling that next year I will do better yet.

I can't honestly say I'm hooked on improvising yet - it's still a leap every time.

But I have always wanted to be able to improvise, and it did bother me that I couldn't. Did I tell this story here? I been taking piano lessons for 10 years. My piano teacher took the music away and told me to improvise. No note is wrong. Fine, I said, but which note is *least* not wrong? Honestly, I'd spent 10 years in the pursuit of the right note at the right time, played in the right way. What was I supposed to do?

For me, it's almost like a personal affront if there's an instrument or a style that I can't play. It's there - I've got to play it. Does it come from playing in a school band where we would swap instruments to see if the teacher noticed? Or when we put down the instruments and play the music stands instead? (I swear, it sounded better...).

It's like, if the ability is there, in me, and inhibited because, say, I'm obsessed with playing the right note - then that is a shame. A waste. Lack of fulfillment. Make any sense?

TLT, I wonder why you think you cannot improvise?

A couple of points to think about based on my experience early on. I've already said here over and over that at the beginning stages, all you have to do is memorize the chord tones and pick them. This just shows you that there's nothing magical about the notes. This is the bulk of the sound you hear. So if you pick a correct chord tone (matching the chord I mean), then it cannot be in error. Feel confident about that.

Later on you can learn cool scales to vary some chords and suddenly you will feel like you sound different. But that's later on.

Now I know you've tried chord tones and like I was originally, I was disatisfied with the sound that came out.

That was when the light bulb turned on in my head. It isn't about the notes. It never was. You have to believe that chord tones make up most of the sound. Bill Evans used mostly chord tones. Same with McCoy Tyner who was big on Pentatonics. You are not going to pick notes different from these guys.

BUT -- why are you unsatisfied with the sound? Because in the end it's all about phrasing. Phrasing involves, the swing, the accents, the rhythmic elements that turn the notes into a melody. That is a language of expression in jazz and it has to be assimilated by listening.

So don't worry about the notes. When someone says improvise, hit a chord tone, especially the third. And don't worry about what you think it sounds like. It cannot be bad. It can't even be a wrong note. I don't like the randomness that no note is wrong. Plenty of notes are wrong.

Now this is the next step is to assimilate the rhythmic elements of Jazz. Remember Freddie the Freeloader? Just mouth the phrasing of the lines. You will notice how those specific swing rules are applied to make a phrase (quarter notes short, eighths long except for one before a rest, long half notes...this is all theory). When you can humm the phrasing (forget the tonality for a moment), you will begin to use it.

Frankly, this is the most difficult part of jazz. It never was the notes. This is what makes improvisation difficult. Although there are only typically 6-7 correct notes to pick per chord (1/3/5/7/9/11/13), the rhythmic permutations are incredibly large. And it takes a long time to do it automatically.

It's just a language that has to be learned.

On the contrary, I can!

My point was that I couldn't. And that bothered me.

I've learned something. I'm aware there's a long way to go, but I have learned something.

Tlt,

It's really amazing the progress you've made.
The way I look at it, you owe Jazzwee one!
I'm thinking he likes Scotch.
Hey Jazzwee, please don't drink it all on your own, I'm still planning on paying you a visit one of these days...


To the question. Why do we play?
Honestly probably because I have nothing better to do and it gives me a nice shield from the kids sometimes. It's quite a selfish activity.
Also because I have very concerned with brain activity, and various ways to keep the brain in shape as the years go by. Music is one way to stay sharp. I also play a horn instrument because it's very good for the lungs. Plus the challenge is completely different.

Arm weight. Relaxed arm, but a strong hand. Bind the notes with the hand (arm weight - not the pedal). Work on the exercises I've posted and in 6 months or so . . .

KJ's touch comes from studying the classic's; Mozart, Bach, Ravel, Chopin; it's all there.
Listen to KJ at the age of 20. Read and get it here

I was thinking the very same thing.



Good to know.

Does anyone else have the Jazz Theory Book (Levine) and is willing to answer questions on it? It's mostly self-explanatory, but every now and then I come across a chord and think, wtf?

You make a good point worth mentioning, Chris. The singing tone we often hear in jazz players is accomplished with practically no pedal.

That might come as a suprise to our New Age friends in this forum.

The complex nature of jazz music with its dissonances would sound muddy with pedal. So Chris is right about exercises. I use a different set of exercises that come from my teacher but the point is the same.

When playing a ballad and improvising, the middle fingers are feathering an inner harmony so the 3rd, 4th and 5th finger are left to create a solo. Some fingers have to always be down for the notes to be heard. All without pedal. I find you have to be really in control of fingers 4/5 to do this. This was exactly one of Chris' exercises.

Then there's the interplay of sound between LH and RH so that at any moment, the sound is lush and never absent.

Usually I relegate pedal use to the head of a tune where I know that the harmony will not clash. Once the solo starts, the right foot gets to just tap.

TLT, what's your Levine question?

And please, I enjoy sharing my jazz journey. This is not about anyone owing me anything...