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#1641487 - 03/15/11 12:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Really nice, Cee. Really nice. Yes, you CLEARLY outclass the likes of me by miles. However, even if you move to the other thread, I hope you keep checking in here and offering advice to the rest of us. Judging solely by this example of your playing, your comments and suggestions would be very welcome.
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#1641538 - 03/15/11 02:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
time flies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 125
Quote:
I was never big on playing standards ...

Cee, I'm really happy you gave us these two standards. I love your playing - so musical.
tf

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#1641540 - 03/15/11 02:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
time flies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 125
Legal Beagle - you're really off to a great start. I'm looking forward to more.
tf

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#1641575 - 03/15/11 03:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
joyoussong Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 739
Loc: Canada
I've been lurking around this thread for a while, but haven't had time to start from the beginning & see if my skills are up to starting to learn some jazz (which is where I hope to eventually focus.)

In the meantime, I thought people might be interested in an amazing (to me) web site I've discovered. It may already be posted here somewhere, but just in case it isn't --
You can listen to piano jazz online from Small's in New York, & if you hit the right time of day you can watch performances live via streaming video. The archived performances go back several years, depending on the performer, & are sorted by instrument, so you can check out the list of piano players (there are more than 100, maybe 200). I only recognize a few names in the list, but I've been poking around some of the others & have discovered a couple I particularly like. It's a good resource for listening to different styles of playing, etc.

Enjoy!
_________________________
Carol
(Started playing July 2008)



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#1641631 - 03/15/11 05:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
joyous, that was potentially an excellent resource...too bad it kept saying "the audio for this date is not yet available" (from 2009). So many major names here.

I'll try for more but the ones I checked were no go.
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#1641694 - 03/15/11 06:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Cee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 29
Loc: Timisoara, Romania
Thanks time flies, I'm glad you enjoyed my playing, but you know what they say, there's so many things to learn! smile

edit: Oh dear! That link posted by joyoussong is PURE GOLD! I just clicked around and every recording seems to be working for me.

Thank you very much for that!


Edited by Cee (03/15/11 06:21 PM)
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#1641733 - 03/15/11 06:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hey Cee
I just checked out your AL. It was totally insane, you are so in the wrong Beginners thread.

I don't know why Ten couldn't open it. Would it be too much trouble for you to repost it in boxnet so that Ten could groove to it ?

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#1641739 - 03/15/11 07:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: joyoussong]
time flies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 125
Quote:
I've been lurking around this thread for a while,

Welcome, Joyoussong. Come on in and join the fun!

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#1641745 - 03/15/11 07:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Cee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 29
Loc: Timisoara, Romania
@custard apple, thanks smile

I reuploaded the files here:

http://www.box.net/shared/698jahjplh
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#1641806 - 03/15/11 09:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
joyoussong Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 739
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
joyous, that was potentially an excellent resource...too bad it kept saying "the audio for this date is not yet available" (from 2009). So many major names here.

I'll try for more but the ones I checked were no go.


I know, a lot of the more recent performances aren't available yet, & it's kind of frustrating. But there are hundreds of older ones to listen to while they get the newer stuff uploaded.
_________________________
Carol
(Started playing July 2008)



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#1642037 - 03/16/11 07:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Cee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Cee

Most excellent Autumn Leaves. For a complete beginner like me I realy can hear the individual notes. All the pauses for breath and repeating rythms that Jazwee and others talk about are there.

Many thanks for this. Full of ideas and I can actually hear what is going on. If you ever do another AL do post it here as the speed and clarity of this is realy good for beginners to hear. What are you going to be like when you get the hang of the piano.

Swing Cabbage
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1642112 - 03/16/11 09:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
OK, still moving through the very early pages of this thread... here's a short snippet of my combined attempt at:
1. 1/7 LH + 3's only in RH
2. the elusive Charleston rhythm

HERE

I've had an unforeseen circumstance that has greatly limited my acces to a piano, and will continue to do so for about a week mad So much for my lenten pledge to practice every day frown
_________________________
"Wide awake, I can make my most fantastic dreams come true..."
- Lorenz Hart

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#1642138 - 03/16/11 10:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Legal Beagle]
Cee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 29
Loc: Timisoara, Romania
@SwingCabbage, thanks, I didn't really post those recordings for some kind of benchmark to be achieved or anything, I just wanted to share some of my ideas and get some sense of where I am with my swinging. I'm not really a "straight-ahead" player... I am of course glad if it does help somebody get some inspiration smile I myself am infected with the "new instrument-new ideas" syndrome right now smile

@Legal Beagle,

That sounds nice, here's a couple of things you can do to strengthen your playing straight off the bat:

Don't forget about time. Time is as important as learning the 1/7 and 3 so if you can, find a metronome and play with it. If you start incorporating time at this stage you'll find it synced in your system as you progress, and everybody loves a piano player with solid time.

You can have it play half notes on downbeat at first, and when you get the hang of it, switch it to beats 2 and 4. You can fine-tune your balance way better when you have some kind of anchoring point with the metronome. (it would pretty much be like the drummer's hi-hat)

The second thing you can try is inverting the chords (even if you're playing them with both hands). When playing with a bass player it's not really cool to play the root on the LH. Pretty much steps all over his territory. It's like having a rude sax player solo on top of your piano solo. Not cool.

So once you get comfortable with 1/7 LH and 3 on RH, try 3/7 on LH and 5 (or 1 or melody) on the RH.

I also recommend getting the Jamey Aebersold play-alongs, they're pure gold. There's slow versions, and fast versions, and different key versions, everything you need to start out.

That's unfortunate you don't have access to the piano so often, but do keep posting your progress!

edit: Oh, and one more thing, I notice you hit the second chord of the phrase quite hard. Don't worry it's a natural thing, the hand just wants to do it. Right now it sounds a little rushed and that's just because of the dynamics of it.

I'd recommend playing a little dynamic game with yourself when practicing:
Once you have the chords down and you're in time (maybe with the help of a metronome) play this exercise:
- all equal dynamics - ppp
- first chord f, second p
- first chord p, second f
- equal dynamics fff (just for the fun of it)
- first three chords ppp, fourth chord fff!

So you can mess around with dynamics while you learn as well.

I guess the important thing here is not to overlook something just because you're learning/practicing something else. It's as important to learn harmony as time, dynamics and technique right from the very beginning.

Once you get fairly comfortable with some elements (the chords or time) start focusing on some others (dynamics) while still doing the first.

Cheers!


Edited by Cee (03/16/11 11:05 AM)
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#1642187 - 03/16/11 12:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Cee]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Thanks, Cee. Your input is great, as I knew it would be. smile
_________________________
"Wide awake, I can make my most fantastic dreams come true..."
- Lorenz Hart

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#1642277 - 03/16/11 01:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Good work LegalBeagle. Cee's comments are of course correct.

The 1/7 - 3 lesson is to develop solo piano two handed voicings so what Cee is talking about goes to the rootless voicings in lessons to follow.

You see you tight Cee's time is? It takes a long time to get to that point so a long term relationship with the metronome will be necessary in this journey smile

As far as Charleston, I think you're on the downbeat on the second stab (3) or slightly later than you ought to be. It should be 2+. A metronome mark would make this clear since I'm assuming where the beats are. Try it a slower so the beat demarcations are clearer.
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#1642316 - 03/16/11 03:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Cee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 29
Loc: Timisoara, Romania
Some people just hate playing with a metronome though. And I am one of them.

I instead replaced the click with Aebersolds and the later with my own sequencing of rhythm sections and finally of complete tunes.

There's always alternatives, that's what I'm trying to say laugh
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Click for website...

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#1645289 - 03/21/11 02:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
My iPhone ended up in toilet so no can record till I replace or fix.

I have a jazz practice question though (remember I'm new to piano).
When practicing arpeggios should I be practicing 1 3 5 7 1 3 5 7 1 ect and then mix them up (like 1 5 3 7 5 1 7 3 ) or should I also be adding in the 9 and 11 as these are used in Jazz a lot?

Currently I found this lesson on youtube and have been following it as done in video.
Can't find URL but a search under 'Piano with willie part 12' will find it. (haven't really looked at other lessons)

My Q is should I just stick to 1357 or do 3579 or 1357911. Apologies if this is v basic but can't record at mo and advice here appreciated.

Thanks folks
SwingC


I remember I think Jazzwee discussing arpeggios 3 5 7 9 I think somewhere? No root in arp (because in LH maybe)
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1645327 - 03/21/11 04:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
SC, don't practice with 11.

In general if you practice normal arpeggios of 7th chords 1 3 5 7, you will already hit them all.

For example, let's say you're practicing a CMaj7 arpeggio. When I say 3 5 7 9, it's really just an Em arpeggio (1 3 5 7 of Em). So scales and arpeggios are just normal technique practice.

IN REAL PLAYING - we don't play scales or arpeggios. We play melodies. As a separate practice, just noodle around with an arpeggio like a 3 5 7 9 and see how you can construct melodies. Don't be hesitant to use "repeats".
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#1645374 - 03/21/11 05:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Thanks Jazzwee
Yes I see that now. One chords 1357 is another chords 3579. Yes I get it.
I'm just askin cause the step I'm on is to add chord tones to my improv. The arps are helping my head and fingers connect. Slowly.
By repeats I presume you mean repeat melodies, repeat notes, repeat rhythms on different chords, repeat mistakes and the like.
Thanks again and sory for the very basic question.
SC
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1645405 - 03/21/11 06:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
So scales and arpeggios are just normal technique practice.

IN REAL PLAYING - we don't play scales or arpeggios. We play melodies. As a separate practice, just noodle around with an arpeggio like a 3 5 7 9 and see how you can construct melodies. Don't be hesitant to use "repeats".



I have kept up using a metrognome for technique practice even with arps. I have also been trying offbeat emphasis while doing arp practice with 8th notes. Is this correct to keep off beat emphasis when practicing technique?
Should I keep quarter notes slightly short as well when practicing technique?
I do keep off beat emphasis on 8th notes when noodling as well.
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1645421 - 03/21/11 07:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Actually, for long term use, you'll need to practice in all variations. Legato, detached, stacatto, swing straight, swing hard, even eighths. All of the above.

The issue is knowing when to call them in as tools.

Now that I'm playing in public regularly, it's amazing sometimes how one is able to recollect all this. At the early stage, it seems like an impossibility. There's a lot to do but the only way to handle them in a short time is to manage your practice to the minute detail.

Set short term practice/memorization goals and "tick" off the ones you complete. Each ticked item is a skill. By the time you have thousands of these little skills it will all come together.
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#1645424 - 03/21/11 07:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
I always use the metronome beats on 2 & 4, even on some classical stuff - but especially on scales. I like that backbeat better.
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David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1645657 - 03/22/11 05:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Tanks daviel and Jazzwee. I'm still slow at ticking things. This will pick up over time.
I will move to 2 & 4 soon.,
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What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1646669 - 03/23/11 05:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Actually, for long term use, you'll need to practice in all variations. Legato, detached, stacatto, swing straight, swing hard, even eighths. All of the above.

Set short term practice/memorization goals and "tick" off the ones you complete. Each ticked item is a skill. By the time you have thousands of these little skills it will all come together.


OK

For now I am aiming to learn scales to a metrognome legato and also off beat emphasis.
Scales I am using Metaphors for the musician as it is very clear. Chapter 11.

For Arps I am just doing legato to start.
When I get some sort of fluency in these can I put them up for you folks to critise / critique? I do try and use them musicly as you may be able to tell in my latest attempt following.
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1646677 - 03/23/11 05:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
80 bpm, iRealBook, piano turned off and drums down. Recorded over the air on my laptop (iPhone dead) using Audacity.
The quality doesnt seem good. I may need to find another recording mechanism.

I hit bum notes and many times emphasis was wrong. I was focusing as much as possible to add in some chord tomes instead of just G scale done right.

If this recording is to bad to listen to please tell me. It seems OKish on ipad.

All critism apreciated.

http://www.box.net/shared/8l894cnb6s

SwingC
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1646684 - 03/23/11 05:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Apologies. All notes sound staccato and bad. It just a bad recording of bad playing.
I will return.
SwingC
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1646760 - 03/23/11 07:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage
Apologies. All notes sound staccato and bad. It just a bad recording of bad playing.
I will return.
SwingC


Hi Swing. This sounds musical to me. I can't comment on the recording because I don't know much about these things. I have a Zoom and that works well for me. But in terms of musicality, it sounds in control (by this I mean it sounds like you are playing the notes you intend to play, not just notes randomly) - also you have clear phrases, you start phrases on different beats of the bar (which is good) and you are not afraid of rests.

As you pointed out, legato is a major issue. Legato is the work of years. It doesn't come quickly to anyone, I don't think. Perhaps some classical playing will help? Certainly scales are good practice for legato.

The other thing is I think the recording quality doesn't do you any favours in the legato effect. In other words, it probably sounded better live, so don't beat yourself up over it. But do work on it. smile
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#1647029 - 03/24/11 07:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Thanks TLT. it's almost as if everything under a certin level did not make it onto the recording. You can hear that as the notes moved left they lasted longer. There is either a frequency cutoff or a decibel cutoff. It is a cheap sound card in my pc. Twas worth a try but i'll not do it that way again.p

I am looking into another way to record.
Thanks for the ''musical' comment.
Legato, legato legato. Sgonna always be a focus.

Thanks again

SwingCabáiste
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1647072 - 03/24/11 09:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage


Legato, legato legato. Sgonna always be a focus.



Was thinking more about this overnight. For developing legato technique, it may be helpful (even necessary) to dedicate some time to playing music from sheet. By this I mean, playing where you know where your fingers are going, and they also know. Where they learn certain lines by doing them over and over. Mozart is good for this, Bach also.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1647078 - 03/24/11 09:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
LOL TLT
I have come along way in very few months but actually playing Bach and Mozart tis a little early for me. I need to keep focus.

Lets go back to your idea ina few months if my submissions to this post show I am still stuck hard in non legato land. I realy think that it was the recording and not my playing but there are Some (legato / sticato) mistakes in there. Where it is obviously wrong even with the bad recording.

I am going to learn my daughters exame pieces from sheet. I think that these are possibly closer to my standard. There is fingering written there for her so this will be good for me. It also indicates when it is sticato ( not legato)as well so This will help me.

Another of those many boxes to tick is to be able to read lead sheet for the melody of tunes that I dont know. I will have to learn to sight read to some decent standard. This is not on the menue for ticking at the moment though.

Believe it or not I think that I am getting the legato together. The next propper recording will tell.

SwingC
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