I GOT ACCEPTED INTO THE NEXT ROUND!!!

But one problem , thought someone may be able to help me. I am studying Feux Follets ... treacherously demanding piece for the right hand fingers 3, 4 , 5 - I don't need any advice on technique or how to practice etc - I am relaxed as a jellyfish , but I have been studying 5 hours a day on that piece for the past 9 days ... It's coming along quite nicely.

BUT , I have developed a very annoying sensation in my arm ... I feel like it's the tendon that runs from the 4th finger down into the elbow area ... on the elbow , the side opposite of the bone , I feel a bit of tension as well.

The tendon feels like it's a deeper issue , beyond just a basic soreness.

My plan is to cut back my daily studying of Feux Follets to 2.5 hours and study bach and beethoven instead. Also , much slower practice on Feux Follets with my right hand ... But is there any cream , oils , herbs , remedies or anything to help me with the tension / tightness of my forearm tendon area? Any method anyone uses to nurture themselves back to normal? It's not getting worse as of yet because I cut the work load down , but I don't think it's going away for a while unless I do something about it ... and stopping practicing is NOT an option.

Thanks a lot =)

So NOW can you tell us more about this competition?

Not quite sure what you want to know? But here is the link for their page. It's a relatively new competition ... I have no idea if they accepted everyone or not because I have no idea how many entered and how many got accepted.

http://www.musicalartsinternational.org/...-7.39190450.pdf

Dustin, first of all, congratulations on getting to the next round.

What you say about the feeling in your arm worries me. Enough to tell you plainly: You should not be working on Feux Follets. Listening to your earlier recording, I had the overwhelming impression that you need a good teacher right now. Your tone is mostly fine, but you play with a rhythmic hesitancy that gets in the way of almost everything you're trying to do. I appreciate your love for the music, and your enthusiasm: I hope they only continue to grow. But it could be argued that right now, the Beethoven op31/3 is a little beyond your level, let alone a Liszt etude.

Furthermore, the fact that you're spending five hours a day on this piece, and that the other day you said you spent five hours on the left hand alone of a Bach fugue, suggest that you need some good advice in structuring your practice time.

I'm coming off strongly, on purpose. Previously, I felt no real need to make my opinions about your playing and your situation known-- why shouldn't you play what you want? But if you're starting to hurt yourself, that's totally different. I think you're heading in the wrong direction.

So please understand that it's only out of concern that I say: Dustin, you're playing beyond your level right now and you really need supervision; please, please please study with a teacher.

-Jason

Thanks for the advice. The Beethoven piece is most definitely not beyond my 'level'. I barely practiced it , let alone with a metronome.

I got in touch with my previous teacher today , but he tours during the summer. I can get a little time in with him to study feux follets though before he goes away.

Stopping feux follet is not an option btw. =)

I must learn it for the competition. I am going slower with it though and like I said , the pain isn't getting worse. But I take hot baths every day and massage my arms with a rag. It fixes most soreness and pains ... but this tendon thing is different it seems

This is what I have I think!!!

http://www.itendonitis.com/forearm-tendonitis.html

But I don't think it's 'that' serious yet , I caught it before it got too bad and just trying to figure out ways to let it heal while not preventing myself from practicing .. =)

Consider this. You say it is imperative that you keep practicing every day. You also say you need to know how to relieve the somewhat serious pain in your arm. I'm going to make an extreme example here, but bear with me. The thing you have to think about is what will affect you in the long run. You could 1) Drastically reduce your practice time, or not practice at all, and not do as well as you might in the competition, or 2) You could play through the pain and possibly injure yourself to the point of no return where you will never be able to play without pain again. The choice is yours.

P.S. You can reduce your physical practice time without reducing your musical practice time (i.e. silent score study, listening to recordings, analysis of the music, etc.).

It is an option.



You're welcome.

Yes , I am debating in my head if I should do silent score study. Perhaps choreograph movements in my head , and analyze the interpretation away from the piano.

I am going to take your advice about reducing my practice time. Perhaps only do an hour of right hand Feux Follet a day spread across 30 minute sections in the morning and at night - I can still master the left hand in the mean time ... I'm researching anti inflammatory creams and icing / elevation stuff.

I also wouldn't say it's painful 'yet'. It's uncomfortable and tense ... and I know if it could go to painful quickly if I kept doing what I was doing for such an extended period of time.

I agree with 31425.

Even so, it could be fine not to follow it, depending on what you're interested in doing, and what you think you're doing. But I promise you there's a lot to what he's saying.

I agree with you that the Beethoven isn't really "beyond your level" -- obviously you can play it -- but there's still the question of how good an idea it is for you to work on such a piece, especially without a teacher, and I'd guess that's mostly what Jason meant. From the standpoints of both advancing your craft and presenting yourself as well as possible at the moment, I think ideally simpler repertoire would serve you better. I don't think the Beethoven sonata is outrageously wrong, but I think if you continue working mainly on repertoire that is so advanced before some close work on basics with simpler repertoire, you may be sort of cementing your deficiencies rather than remedying them. As for Feux Follets, I don't hesitate to echo completely what Jason said, from every imaginable standpoint -- musical, pianistic, and health of your hands. It seems there's no chance you'll heed this, but nevertheless I'll say, it's flat-out a bad idea for you to be working on it, and extremely ill-advised to be thinking of playing it in the competition. Even if you think you "have to," and there's no way out of it, you should find one.
There is almost always the opportunity to change your planned repertoire, even if this is not formally indicated.

And BTW it might help for you to realize that even most very advanced pianists would not think of performing such a piece without having had it well under their belt for quite some time, which wouldn't be the case for you even in the best scenario. I can't help pretty much assuming that you just don't appreciate what the piece involves and requires.

It's good that you have contacted the teacher and are planning to have some lessons. And of course: Congratulations on your success in the competition. Regardless of what we might think of your choice of pieces, it's a significant achievement and a testament to your ability and your work.

As some of us tried to tell you before, Dusty, you're in over your head and that's why you're now in pain. I don't care if you've practised 14 hours a day between that last recording and now, because the fact is that you can't create something that isn't there to begin with through sheer will and determination. It takes time and lots of it. Your technique isn't up to par for the works you posted previously, so it's certainly not going to be up to par for one of the Liszt etudes. "I began playing only three days ago, but I need tips on Prok 2." I'm not dumping on you Dustin (though someone needs to give you a good dose of reality, which I've tried to do), but I am telling you from experience (I've probably been teaching longer than you've been alive) that what you're doing with the extended hours of practise with no guidance but that which you THINK is correct and overextended yourself by playing repertoire such as the Liszt without the technique to do so will only harm you in the long run. If you're not careful you may well damage things permanently. The best advice I can give you is to stop practising completely if you're experiencing this kind of pain. Don't tell me that it's not an option, because I'll tell you that you're an idiot to believe so. You're young and rather naive and stupidly stubborn, so I rather doubt any advice from anyone will be taken to heart, but, if you don't want or like what we have to say, then why bother asking?

Quitting the Liszt is "not an option"? Oh come on. Do you seriously think you can play that right now, especially with pain? Pain is no. 1 sign that you are doing something wrong - no shame in that, we've all done it, it happens. You need to drop the piece and (I'll say it again) look for a good teacher. I'm sure you can afford it twice a month at least, with all the teaching you're doing.

+1

That is not possible.

That's a bit harsh, stores.

Let me put it this way to you, Dustin. I was once like you, and I thought if I practiced hard, that would be enough. In reality it takes top level instruction, dedication, and time. What you're trying to do is cram everything into a few days because you want to be instantly gratified by your efforts -- not how it works.

My professor told me once:

[some humor may be lost in translation from Russian]
"What are you doing? You are planting potatoes. Don't dig out the potato the next day and try to eat it!"

Nothing lost in the translation at all!

Although it does help to be imagining an eastern European accent....

Excellent....+1

That is fantastic.

I guess some people will have to learn from experience. Nothing that Stores or Pogo or whoever else says here will make a difference. Good luck Dustin, that's all I can say!

How is this a relatively new competition if this year is the 26th annual, with the older division added in 2000? 11 years is a long time!

It may be harsh, but it's the honest truth and there is nothing about reality that is going to hurt Dustin, at this point in time. I've seen hundreds of kids with the same desire, but also the same attitude that ends up killing that desire in the long run, because they feel they know enough already and it gets them into trouble every single time. The proof lies in the pain Dustin is already experiencing.

What you never seem to understand is that you can tell someone the same thing without being nasty about it. And it's an honest opinion.

Honestly, I find it funny that you of all people say this. Again, this is just an honest opinion. So lets not derail this thread by pointing fingers at each other (honest opinions can take on distributions with enormous variance). In the end, what stores (and others) said here better be taken seriously by the OP. If not, he will just have to learn painful lessons from experience. Some say that is a better way to learn. If it involves injuries though, that might not be true.

You don't find it "funny"; you're just being sarcastic. And if you're trying to imply that my posts have the same nasty quality of many of the ones by stores, you're dead wrong.

Fazzy told the OP the same thing without the inappropriate tone I objected to.

Dustin, I urge caution if you think you're heading towards tendonitis. Unfortunately, tendons take a long time to heal (blood supply isn't great). I've had tendonitis in both my elbow (thanks to tennis, not piano) and Achilles (running).
There are exercises you can do to help prevent and to heal and you can ice down the area, too. Sometimes, meds. Might not hurt to see your local MD before it gets worse (although I suspect the first thing an MD would tell you is cut back on whatever is irritating it).

I had to stop tennis for a solid 3 months the first time around and my dang Achilles tendon took 9 LOOOOONG months to get back to normal. Then again, I'm no spring chicken.

Good luck!

Dustin

Read Leon Fleisher's autobiography -- he details how "odd feelings" in his right hand after intense practice turned into the nightmare of dystonia that disrupted his career for 30+ years. Your body is giving you a warning . Heed it!!!

I don't recall such unanimity on too much here before -- or anywhere for that matter.

The sarcasm if you perceived any, is an honest opinion too. That's the funny thing about honest opinions. Not everybody agrees with them. All I'm saying is diverting this discussion to inappropriateness of tone (especially by you) is hypocritical. People voice opinions here all the time and perception of inappropriateness varies widely. I for instance view stores' tone as less malevolent than the tone you adopt in some of the threads that you've started in the past. So if you want to continue discussing this, this thread will turn into people pointing fingers at each other. Why do you do this with every other thread (esp with stores, as I've noted quite a few times)? I do think that your tone in many threads has been nasty. Like I said, that's what's funny about honest opinions. I fully expect you to think that I'm dead wrong! That's just your opinion. I guarantee you, I can find at least one other person who will agree with me. So then two people would be dead wrong, wouldn't they? I will then find one more amongst the 55000 members of PW. We can continue the game until you call 27,000 people dead wrong (probabilitywise, I expect about half the people to agree with you and the other half to agree with me).

Many different tones have been used in this very thread to explain the same thing to the OP. None has worked. So why even bother discussing appropriateness of tone?

What's interesting is that my post wasn't directed to YOU, yet you're the one objecting. I don't particularly care that you object, but I think my point is clear.

Why is everyone using the word 'pain' when I explicitly stated it isn't painful? It's called preventive maintenance. I have been studying piano enough to realize symptoms and to catch them early and not over do it.

Anyway , I didn't mean to single you out but stores and others commented on the 'pain' factor.

It isn't painful!!! Just awkwardly tense!

I know what I'm getting myself into with Feux Follets. It's coming along verrrrry nicely. I'll post a rough recording in 2 weeks

I'm icing my arm and using some thing called Tiger Balm. And stretching it a lot. It feels better already =)

for some reason I thought it was newer than that. I thought the upper division was 6 years old. But yeah , the lower divisions have been around for a while =)

I've used Tiger Balm before, but that was for splitting headaches that accompanied viral fever (and not on a painless hand :D).

I don't think you have, Dustin. You NEED the guidance of a quality teacher who will help you along in your musical journey.

Dustin, you're being dense.

Both about the music, and about your 'condition.'

You come on here, asking for input, and everybody UNANIMOUSLY is telling you stuff -- and you want to ignore it.

And about it being or not being "painful," you're playing with words. When people said "pain," even if you hadn't indicated that you do have pain (about which, stay tuned) ...it was a shorthand for the serious symptoms that you had referred to (this is from your 1st post on here):



You want to split hairs and try to negate the good sense of what people are saying by claiming you said it's not pain? OK, then just imagine that they said "symptoms," which was what they meant.
And regarding "pain," yeah, you did sort of say later on that you don't have it, but look what else you had said:


So you did indicate that you have pain. But never mind about that, it's just playing with words. You can go ahead and do whatever you want, and as I said before, it "could be OK" depending on what your goals are and what you think you're doing. Like, if you mainly just want to play these pieces for their own sake and don't care how well you do in this competition or what you do to yourself physically or whether you're following any semblance of a rational approach to working on your playing, fine. (Really.) But if you do care about some of those other things, as well as, for example, how you'll come off in the event with a piece like Feux Follets (most likely it'll be seen as absurd), then you might want to consider taking our input more seriously.

A stupid question perhaps - but why is playing something else not an option? What's the rationale behind including this piece for this competition? I had a look at the flyer - and nowhere does it ask for an etude or virtuosic piece. Feux Follets seems a strange choice - but you might have a reason why you've chosen this as your Romantic piece - why you've decided that this piece is worth the risk to your forearm/tendons/or whatever is causing you trouble (note that I did not mention pain here!)

LOL!!

But anyway IMO the main "risk" of the piece isn't even his physical condition. He'll live. The main risk is the impression he'll give by playing it -- how he'll play it, and what the choice will show about his judgment.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Honestly.

You heard a few clips of some pieces I threw together on a whim and now you are making judgements about 'how I will play it'.

I'm studying feux follets because I want to. It's pushing me to incredibly new technical heights. I love a challenge and I have time to study it.

Plus it's fun to practice.

Worse case scenario - I don't place in the competition. I'm not afraid of 'looking bad'.

The main thing I'm worried is not the feux follets , but memorizing the bach fugue.

I've already pretty much learned the hardest parts of feux follets anyway. I just have to study slowly now , memorize the right hand and get it up to speed.

Just because you can't study the piece doesn't mean someone else can't.

I was messing around with the piece already and it was either this or La Campanella which I studied a couple years ago. I decided to go for Feux Follets instead because I know It will push me to a new level.

Plus I'm a bit crazy

Cute. Really cute.

It seems that's your basic answer to everyone.

Is everyone's opinion ridiculous?

NOW does anyone still believe I was too harsh with some of what I had to say?

Do what you want to do, Dustin, but don't expect any advice from this corner again. You say one thing and then when experience attempts to help you... you scoff... so guess what? I think you know the answer.

Someday he'll wish he listened more to us.

And I have a feeling the "someday" will come pretty soon.

stores, Mark_C:

I don't disagree with your opinions, but only how you express them.

Sure Dustin is a bit immature because there's knowledge he doesn't know that he doesn't know (i.e. unconscious incompetency). Unanimous opinions were given, he more or less dismissed them, but you don't have to burden yourself with trying to help him realize the errors of his ways.

Why should his ignorance bother you? It doesn't bother me. In fact, I call it pianistic Darwinism -- either he will adapt by way of injury to himself (emotional lessons are the best learned) or lose the ability to play altogether.

It's an elegant solution, really. And I don't have to waste a bit of time (well except for writing this response) with it.

It's not about being "bothered." We're hoping we can 'inspire' him to listen a little sooner than he otherwise might. Or anyway I am.

You think it's useless? Maybe it is. But don't tell me you've never been at a movie where you yelled "No, don't go in there...."

Fuzzy objected to the tone of your post before I did. There's no reason why someone can't object to the tone/content of a post that's not directed to them, and posters do this all the time.

But that's not the worst-case scenario. It's actually physical injury that could be irreversible. Do read up on RSIs, tendinitis, focal dystonia, etc. (and the pianists who have injured themselves severely like Leon Fleisher and Gary Graffman) to understand the risk you are taking.

Fuzzy, you will also have to realize that people like stores (and many others here!), who have been teaching for decades, are not exactly as nonchalant as you are about these things because they care about young people hurting themselves and potentially having to give up playing the piano forever (that's a quality one must possess in order to be a good teacher). So that might explain the urgency (and hence the harshness) in their posts vs the very carefree tone in yours. Not everybody has to learn by injuring themselves. I'm sure you know that very well yourself. So why advocate it (or imply that its ok)? The least you can do is be silent about it and not feed/encourage the ignorance exhibited by the OP.

I think liszt85 is right on the mark here. The supposed harshness of stores's original post stems, at some level, from his caring. Even when he calls Dustin an idiot (really, the only possibly objectionable moment from his post imo). Same with my post in which I say, in no uncertain terms, that Dustin shouldn't even be working on the Beethoven sonata on his own. These statements come from concern. Fuzzy's suggestion of pianistic Darwinism suggests a vast philosophical divide between his and stores's basic outlooks, I think.

-J

I think that Dustin should keep in mind :

- He has thrown together "on a whim" a recording that he himself admits was not up to par, but, since he also claims it is preparatory to an imminent competition, he objects to the valid criticisms leveled against the recording. I think he got what he asked for.
- He seems to think that intense practicing several hours a day in spite of recurring negative physical reactions to his practice routine will solve all the technical and interpretive problems pointed out in the initial critiques. I don't think this is either wise nor reasonable.

Others should perhaps recall :
- Dustin has asked for similar advice/opinions before and, similarly, has brushed them off as being unkind or unfair or not taking into account the "whim" behind the competition recording. In that light, I don't think that stores criticism was unnecessarily harsh, but that it helped underline the impatience that some of us may be feeling with the Dustin's apparent obstinacy in face of the repeated consensus offered.

I hope that we all wish him well, but I feel that he is treading on pretty dangerous ground, physically and artistically.

Regards,

unanimous opinions were given to a premise that I incorrectly stated - that being of feeling 'pain'.

I used the word pain initially , I admit it was an unforeseeable mistake because every poster has latched onto that and acted like I am destroying my hands with this piece.

So , once again , it isn't pain , never was pain , never will be pain.

It's called tension. Tightness. That goes away with proper care.

I am relaxed as a jelly fish , I can practice 10 hours a day and not get any tension for the most part.

Feux Follet is different though. I'm not used to the positions it's putting me in. But it doesn't mean I'm not relaxed. My muscles just have to learn the new positions.

Again , I should never have used the word pain in the beginning.

What many ARE doing innapropriately , however , is judging the difficulty of the piece in relation to me based off some recordings.

I appreciate the concern from most members , as it was my fault to use a wrong word to describe my sensations.

I am attacking the areas of tension with Icing , tiger balm , stretching and anti inflammatory pills - While cutting back on my right hand practice.

Why nobody mentioned these 'remedies' is beyond me. People are just assuming I'm using wrong technique or practice methods.

Sigh.

Thank you

Informative information. My previous teachers (both of them) studied with Fleischer back in the day , so I am quite well aware of the horror story.

But really , I can get tension playing tennis or playing billiards for hours a day. It goes away and it just means there is something I am doing that I need to fix.

I found what I was doing in feux follets to create the tension and I stopped it. It's looking better for me now and I feel much better =)

Thanks for the comment. The problem areas I am having mostly with the Beethoven is that the piece is a bit strange to me. It isn't like much other Beethoven I have studied. I haven't spent a lot of time interpreting the piece or keeping a metronome steady with it.

I am not practicing 'more' the same way hoping to get better (that is the definition of a delusion ... thinking you can fix something by doing the wrong thing more frequently lmao)

I took into account the criticism from the previous thread and using that to focus on feux follets (keeping rhythm very steady and using metronome and interpreting the piece away from the piano.)

dangerous ground , yes. But it's exciting!

People do survive after being thrown into alligator swamps , after all. I will survive and hopefully get this piece together =)

Ignorance of OP. LOL.

Are you telling me that you have NEVER IN YOUR LIFE gotten tension from ANYTHING?????

I think some people here really are robots. It's amazing that nobody here get's tension and then criticizes me for getting it after studying arguably one of the most difficult compositions in the repetoire for 5 hours a day.

The thing is , you are ignorant as to what I'm doing at the piano. All you know is that I developed tension. Everyone here is jumping to conclusions ... OMFG he is ruining himself with this piece , he must be tight as a rock! He must not know what he's doing! He's a total newbie trying to force his practicing and technique!!!

All of which , I can unequivocally state are incorrect assumptions about me.

I do listen , so it isn't useless. I just don't listen to everything , so I can't make everyone happy

I see the problem now. Its not that you are rejecting advice and opinions here.. it seems like you don't even understand them in the first place! Again, good luck! (You'll need it).

Please elaborate, for that is a very general statement and not a well thought out one.

Or do you not feel like telling me if you have ever received tension while studying piano before?

I'll tell you something, plover. I don't have a problem with fuzzy. If he feels the need to object, then so be it. You, on the other hand, would object to the brand of toothpaste I use. I'm going to tell you once...back off of me.

Honestly, it's because I teach. I can't turn my head and look the other way.

Is Dustin's style reminding anyone else of our old member Nyiregyhazi's way of dealing with suggestions?

I don't mean that I think this "is" him; I don't. I'm just noting how similar are the ways of replying, the particular ways of rejecting anything and everything, even down to the specifics of their styles.

It's incredible. I had thought Nyri was fairly one-of-a-kind, but I guess he wasn't.

i don't know..i used to be like that.. still am in a way... No one could tell me anything.

i kind of started my self study with Chopin etudes in spite of everyone telling me I was nuts.

I'm ok.. not the best pianist, but hay, I have fun.

Dustin, I know I said that I wouldn't give any more advice and I won't, but after reading your latest round of posts here I really must say that you make yourself appear to be rather ignorant and you're ignorant of the fact that you're making yourself appear ignorant. Were you to come to me as a student seeking lessons I'd probably take you on, because it would be a challenge, but I have a feeling that I'd drop you very quickly.

If you are relaxed, you would have no tension. Therefore, you are not relaxed. I know a couple of people who mastered Feux Follets when they were quite young without the problems you seem to be experiencing. It was because they both had very good, fully developed techniques that they had developed through years of practice and training with extraordinary teachers.

+1

I experienced tension in my left arm once. I signed up for lessons immediately as opposed to playing on with the pain. I got rid of the tension in 3 weeks, after following religiously what my teacher asked me to do (specific exercises designed to address that specific problem). I did not act like an ignorant person disregarding advice from people who apparently know what they're talking about. I heeded their advice. So I'm in much better shape now. I hope you adopt the same approach but there have been no indications so far that you're on a similar path. The alternative that you've chosen: to be condescending and smug about this, is a dangerous one.

AS to why I said I suspect you don't even understand the content of the advice people gave you here, your recent post seems to imply that what people mean by your ignorance is the fact that you developed tension in your arm. What you fail to realize is what people are really saying is that you are DEALING with the tension in a flawed manner, a manner that is very dangerous. Everybody experiences tension at some point or the other. Nobody is calling you a moron because you experienced tension in your arm. Its what you're doing to address that issue that's bothering people. I have given up hope now that you will understand, which is why I made a very short post earlier. You can only take the horse to the water. You can't do anything when the horse darts off to find Tiger balm when what it really needs is the water.

Your toothpaste is highly objectionable.

It would be a hoot if you both use the same kind.

I just recently learned of a type of internet forum member, a distant cousin of the troll, known as the "help vampire". The identifying characteristic is that they ask for some sort of help, and then, as people respond, it becomes evident that it is going to be impossible to satisfy them, and that the real motive is sucking as much energy out of the forum as possible.

Music fora seem to have their own families of the species. I can identify several right off the top of my head - besides the "pre-competition" and "pre-recital" vampires, there is the "I just learned Fur Elise and want know how to get into Juilliard" vampire, the "is my teacher right?" vampire, the "acoustic vs. digital" vampire, etc., etc.

The worst part of it is that you often can't tell if the original post is an innocent, uncomplicated request for help, or if it is the initial puncture wound. Most of the types above have counterparts that may ask for exactly the same kind of help, but don't sink their fangs into the forum.

]

3 weeks? Wow. I got rid of mine in 2 days.

I wonder why?

Because for a year , my one teacher worked on breathing and relaxation techniques to make me perfectly relaxed at all times at the keyboard.

When I develop any sort of tension , anywhere , I can get rid of the tension by playing the piano usually. This little sensation was different but it still went away after attacking it religiously with ice and reducing my practice time.

This discussion is basically over now anyway.

OP said something he didn't really mean , most after accuse him of ignorance , stubborness , bad technique , etc , all of which is incorrect.

If you wish to say I was stupid for studying the piece 5 hours a day for 10 days straight , so be it. I could agree with that - but ignorant and bad technique? You've got to be joking.

Then why don't you do that instead of sucking the life out of this forum (as wr rightly identified)? I'm continually amazed by the kinds of people I meet everyday, both in real life and online!

3 weeks? I took 2 days.
4 months for feux follets? Wow. I took 10 days, with 5 hours of work everyday and some tiger balm.
3 months for a Beethoven sonata? You must be kidding me. I took just 2 days! Your teacher obviously did not teach you breathing technique!
You need a teacher? Wow. I only need some ice! You are all morons for wanting teachers!

*sigh*

Dustin, I don’t know how old you are -- can’t seem to find reference to it in the thread, and it’s not in your profile -- but I assume you are relatively young. You seem to have a headstrong brashness that goes with youth, and I’m sure many of us remember thinking we had all the answers in our own younger years, too. A sense of near-invincibility is common as well, which can lead to taking risks that more mature folks would deem unacceptable.

Don’t take that the wrong way, because I sure don’t mean for my words to sound preachy or insulting. It’s just a natural part of the human condition and our growth process, and it is what it is. Unfortunately, though, you can’t have this perspective on it when you’re young ... because you’re young!

Here’s something you wrote that stood out to me as an example of being too sure of yourself for your own good:


“Never will be” is a claim that nobody can possibly make! None of us knows the future, and the ‘non-pain’ of yesterday and today -- whatever the source -- could absolutely become pain tomorrow or anytime down the line.

I understand Fuzzy’s point, subsequently made by others, that some people just have to learn some lessons (about actions and consequences) for themselves. But the whole reason the counsel of older people can be valuable is experience. People are concerned for you, and, all things being equal, would prefer you not risk making serious mistakes. In the end, though, it’s out of our hands.

By the way, for what it’s worth, treating what you now describe as ‘tension’ with ice seems counterintuitive to me. Ice reduces pain and swelling in the immediate aftermath of injury, but otherwise I would expect it to cause stiffness. Wouldn’t heat compresses instead be a better idea? I could be wrong, and I’m just guessing what I would do in a situation where I had neither a teacher nor a doctor to advise me. Maybe others have an opinion about that ... if they still think this thread is worth prolonging.

Dustin, I believe, is 24. I remember him mentioning it in another thread. I don't know if age has anything to do with any of this. We have extremely sensible 13 and 14 year olds on this forum! I know headstrong and brash 50 year olds, some on this forum as well.

Hehe, of course you're right. It takes all kinds -- and I maybe was going down the wrong path there entirely.

Totally IMO here:

Congrats on your performance success!! Wish you all the best for the next round.

Concerning Feux Follets and pain and other stuff....I don't think you should be practicing Feux Follets now just because you should be focused on your competition repertoire anyways. Especially if you feel any sort of sensation you're burning out, you should take it easy. Don't injure yourself, especially during a competition.

Seriously though, if you do feel any tension which lasts after you've left the keyboard, then follow the advice on the thread, you won't regret it.

Competitions are for what exactly?

In Mendelssohn's. Chopin’s Bach's , and Liszt's time there were no competitions, but no one is greater then them today.

The problem is - Dustin has chosen this *as* part of his competition repertoire - for better or worse!

Oh. Oh damn. That's not a great choice to make...

I asked for any sort of remedies that I didn't know about. Any sort of creams , medications , herbal remedies (teas with special healing powers , etc) , therapies , etc.

If I wanted to be told to stop practicing feux follets , I would have asked THIS question:

So , I have a problem. It is due to studying feux follets a lot. The piece is kind of hard.

So everyone, should I stop practicing the piece and give up and be a total failure for a competition I got accepted into? Should I stop practicing altogether?

Oh , actually , do you all think I should just get a teacher , stop practicing altogether because I'm probably gonna get dystonia now ? I'm so scared of pain , I have no idea what I'm doing at the keyboard. I'm a total noob. I've never studied anything beyond C major and Moonlight sonata first movement.

REALLY!?

(Next time I ask a question , it won't be for help , that's for certain. I think perhaps 2 posters made a comment that was actually worth reading ... everything else ignored my original post altogether.)

(I never said I was brilliant at making choices , but when I put my mind on something I become very stubborn and work at it until it's finished.)

You'll all be totally aghast when you finally listen to my video recording in a couple weeks.

Do your best, don't push yourself hard, and take a break afterwards. The one thing I've learned after gaining and losing a technique is that you need strong hands to do these technical feats, and you won't gain this strength in a week or two; it comes from months, years of practice, and disappears very quickly.

Real life example: I played Scriabin's op.42 no.5 for a competition and exam last august-ish. Now, I can still play the notes, but the tension builds up so quickly that I can't even finish the piece. You might learn the notes, but getting it up to tempo and everything can really destroy your hands if you're not strong enough.

Okay, I'll answer this:

No, no such remedies exist. Based on what you've described, the only remedy that will address the cause of your problems (and not just the symptoms), is to cease or change the way you're practicing.

My aunt used to be a personal trainer and she said to ice the [censored] out of it

I have had this confirmed by other sources (a nurse and a nurse student , for instance.)

The ice numbs the area after applying it , but 20 minutes later , the tension goes away. But I also do other things to help.

I know it isn't going to develop to into pain because I'm taking preventive maintenance. I also discovered the main reason the tension developed. It was a couple sections of feux follets that was quite treacherous and I already solved the technical issue.

I am 24 , I am very stubborn and I openly admit it.

Feux Follets will happen. It's called determination and passion to see your goals through. If others refer to that as youthful arrogance , so be it. I'm fine with that.

A very skewed interpretation of the advice, help and info we've been trying to give you. You might not have heard exactly what you wanted to hear - and you may not have liked what you heard - but no one has said anything remotely like this - even removing and discounting your sarcasm in the above.

Dustin -

Good luck with the competition. Its your life. Do what you feel you gotta do. Let us know how it goes. Until then.......

Alternate remedy:

Get a crystal - preferably pyramid shaped. Size doesn't matter, but proportions count. Set it on the SE corner of your piano. Light a candle - preferably a pink one, it's such a healing color. Eat some granola to calm your chi and pet a pootie to ward off the negative energies.

Carefully lift the key cover on your piano with one hand and then SLAM it down on the fingers of your other hand. Switch hands, repeat.

Now, take your ice pack and lay it gently over the tops of the knuckles of one hand. After five minutes, switch hands. When your right hand is free, slam a shot of bourbon. When your left hand is free, throw a couple Ibuprofen down your throat. Repeat for 1-2 hours or until too drunk to stand. Sleep it off.

Your head will hurt too badly to practice for at least 24 hours, giving your tendon a much needed rest. When you sober up, re-read the advice in this thread, with an open, albeit painfully throbbing, mind . . . or not. In either case, extinguish the pink candle before it burns down your crib.

Congrats and best of luck to you.

Well, at last somebody addressed his post!

I don't think you do.
You don't even need to post the whole piece. If you can do just the first 3-4 measures, and measures 18-19, I think that would be enough to show that it could be an OK idea to play the piece. It's not that those are the hardest measures, but just that they'd show you can handle the piece. And if it's really coming along very nicely, you ought to be able to show us those few measures.

BTW: Not very many people can play even just those measures. Of course you have to realize that playing the passages means more than just getting the notes.

No...perhaps two (maybe more, maybe less) stated that which you wanted to hear.

No, it's called ignorant stupidity.

Wow, sometimes stubborn people are complete morons.

It's called wishful thinking. OP is worried, whether he'll admit it or not, and was hoping for someone to say, "Don't worry about it my friend. It's just "tension." A "tense" feeling is completely different from a painful feeling, and utterly harmless. In fact, a tense feeling in your arm, as opposed to a painful one, can actually be a good thing, as it's evidence of a determined fellow who always does what he wants to do and is always, always right, and for whom everything will always work out splendidly."

When he didn't get that, or the name of some miraculous balm that instantly relieves tense feelings in one's arm, he got angry. Or at least defensive.

Hey, I was young once. In fact I can still relate. I'm guessing that deep down he knows he's wrong. But now he's painted himself into a corner.

No going back now.

I hope he doesn't feel that way.

"Going back," if he could bring himself to do it, would be a remarkably positive thing. And I'm guessing you'd view it that way too -- you were just saying how you think he's been seeing it, and I agree.

Correct Mark. And yes, "going back" would be just the ticket.

After reading through this whole thread, I have a whole "different" take on the OP. I don't think he was looking for advice or anything else. I think he wanted us to know he made it into the competition (and I say "Congratulations" and "Best of luck" for the next round)and that he was really working hard on Feux Follets.

I think you're right.
Although of course when we do something like that, we run the 'risk' of finding out things we didn't expect....

That was certainly a big part of it. But I also think he was looking for reassurance on the tension/pain or whatever you want to call it

It should be said that tension and pain are two sides of the same coin. RSIs manifest in different ways in different people. Sometimes you feel pain, sometimes the tension comes first. Sometimes pain doesn't come until much later down the road (when it's too late to be easily remedied.)

This thread is also a good example of the perils of asking for advice on the internet. We don't really know what's plaguing Dustin. We're all just making guesses based on his descriptions and our past experiences.

The other problem with asking for advice on the internet is that you don't get to choose how others will respond. You don't even get to choose how others will interpret the question. (Or the manner in which they will deliver their advice, regardless of its quality.)

Is that better than being an incomplete one?

Sometimes easily convinced people are complete morons too.

He also seems to be changing his description of the problem after he got advice. Now he says it was only tension, but that's not what he said originally.



First it's beyond basic soreness along with tension, and now it's just tension that he doesn't need to worry about?

Well, as far as the tension/pain thing goes, you're correct, sir. I think it quite obvious, however, what's brought it on. He, being the expert that he is, would, I'm sure, disagree.

Yeah, they are.

It's probably a tumour.

BTW, I don't see the usefulness of language like "ignorant stupidity" or "complete moron."

I'm close to locking the topic down. Dustin's self-described stubbornness may make him a easy target, but that doesn't mean you have to lob a barrage of cheap shots at him.

Yes -- and we're abetting his avoidance by taking his bait and debating "pain" vs. "tension." The point is that he's having symptoms; this thing about what to call them, or what he did or didn't call them, is a distraction, and it's not critical to what we're trying to say.


I don't think so, Kreisler. Sure, we don't know his exact 'inner motivation' and we don't know exactly what his symptoms are, but I think we know very well, at least broadly, what's the best advice for him.

P.S. Agree on that last post of yours.

Noted. Let me change that to blatantly delusional. My apologies.

I think the best advice to give here is for Dustin to simply go and see a doctor that specialises in hand and forearm injuries. I don't really understand what Dustin expects by posing such an equivocal question over the internet.

I don't think so. It sounds like he's way short of that. But if he keeps this up....

And besides he probably wouldn't listen to the doctor anyway.

I mean so that the specialist can advise him from a professional and probably more informed opinion as to what to do.



Haha! Most probably not! Maybe Dustin will give the doctor advice instead! (I'm only joking, Dustin!!)

As an extra note, i once had an ibuprofen rub which helped with any aches and pains, if that is the sort of thing you're looking for.

I can't think at this moment anyway, of a single instance in which I was actually helped with an over-use problem by a physician.

I notice a great reverence for physicians on this forum. "See a doctor," is a common refrain. It's the kind of advice no one can really argue with, but for the most part it's not all that helpful. It might surprise you guys to hear that they're not even sure what tendonitis actually is, medically speaking. They'll tell you inflammation, but what's the underlying process that causes it?

Ask a doctor or a physical therapist why certain treatments seem to work, and they don't be able to tell you if they're being honest.

When you're at the point where a doctor can actually help, it's probably via surgery. And we all know what a huge crap shoot that is.

Hey.... come on now. What if my post was directed at someone else? Which maybe it was? Hence why I left out names.

Well, I feel like a 'complete moron' for offering well-meaning advice that wasn't well received ... to say nothing of following this very protracted discussion that no longer has any purpose.

I think the guy who mentioned 'internet vampires' was right after all. Even if that wasn't Dustin's intention, the length and longevity of this thread make it seem like an electronic black hole.

I don't mean to pick on Dustin too much here, as he seems to be a genuinely nice guy.

But what makes the situation all the more bizarre to me is that (as stores pointed out a while back) Dustin is a piano teacher.


-J

Dustin, I'm curious how you got your CD in so late. A couple of my teacher's students entered the competition and they had to get their tapes in by mid-April.