Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Chopin's Op. 10 No. 12 Etude

Been watching Valentina Lisitsa play Chopin's 24 Etudes via her DVD.

One of them stands-out to me and it's the Op.10 No.12. This performance is on YouTube.

Can you guys and gals do what you're supposed to with your left hand with this one?

By the way, Valentina has 3 DVD's--thus far--and I love'em all. So nice to have.

Being relatively new to concert pianists I am, and will always be, amazed at their ability.

I believe I read that these Etudes are some of the most difficult pieces for the pianist. Is there a particular Etude that's considered the most difficult of all?

After posting this I listened to Kissin, Arrau and Cziffra perform this piece. Cziffra--Wow! I've listened to Cziffra play many pieces. He is a powerful player! All on YouTube.

Bech

This etude sounds impressive, yes, but it is far from being the most challenging out of the 24. The left hand fingerwork needs to be clean and well-controlled, but overall it doesn't feel as awkward or straining on the fingers/hands/arms as many other etudes do.

For many people, the most daunting ones usually include op. 10 no.1&2, op. 25 no. 6, and op. 25 no. 11.

I'm not a professional, but I happen to be working on this etude. Chronologically, it's actually my second etude, behind black keys, both of which i first played when i was around 12 or 13 i think (almost 20 years ago... sigh). What i didn't realize back then, is that just how sloppy i played--especially 10/12. So it took me a while to fix up many wrong notes.

Currently, in principle, I can play through it without missing notes; but in reality, there's a couple passages that tire out my LH extremely rapidly (basically over the course of 15 seconds), and once past that, I start missing notes unless I cheat and mess around with tempo a little bit. So while it's actually considered one of the easier Chopin etudes, it is certainly not trivial to pull off and I am just so disheartened to listen to how Cziffra play. Of course I shouldn't be comparing myself to Cziffra... but the internet can be a cruel place.

Good exercise for the left hand, obviously, for non-immortals.

IMSLP link

While we're on this etude, first spot where my LH tires out is bar 25 (2nd page 5th bar in link). I never thought of that fingering that edition provided, maybe I should give it a shot. I've been using 53231 etc. What fingering do people recommend?

This passage alone is okay, by bar 33 to 36 I tense up some more, but it's bar 40 (last measure on that page) that really "breaks the camel's back". I find 212341 very awkward, been using 212351 but it's less secure, and this edition again suggests a fingering I've never thought of. What do others recommend?

It's hard to get all the hairpins in the arpeggios throughout the piece. That's the control I wonder if I'll ever develop.

Lingyis,

I read that Valentina has learned how to relax while playing while some famous pianists have not or have not in a complete sense.

Perhaps this explains how she can practice such long hours without tiring. I e-mailed her and told her I was concerned that she might damage her hands with so much playing and she responded saying that would not happen and the piano does most of the work.

If you watch her play she does have a relaxed kind of "floating way" with her hands. You sometimes wonder if she's going to get the keys pressed down far enough to adequately sound the note due to her apparent light touch.

Perhaps learning how to relax more while playing would help you.

Bech

It the easiest Etude from Chopin.

The only one i can play :p

This is very true. When I first learned the op 10/12 etude, my L.H. (including fingers and wrist) was too tense at times, causing fatigue.

Now as I revisit the piece some years later my hand is completely relaxed and all the notes just kind of flow out. I can play it over and over without the slightest fatigue. My tip is: let your arm become one with the piano, especially the continues movement from left to right required to play the repeated L.H. figures, just concentrating on the fingers is not enough to get through this one.

Valentina is a great example, because she doesn´t rysh the etude, she takes her time, and you can tell that she is completely relaxed throughout.

To me, it becomes more musical when the tempo is a little slower and not played like it's a race to the finish line. It can easily sound rushed and get out of control otherwise.

It's a very impressive piece to perform for sure, good luck with it.

Lingyis, what edition are you using as your study score?

The one in your link at IMSLP is Klindworth’s, but editions by Scholtz, Mikuli, Friedheim and an uncredited Russian publication are also available there. I recommend comparing among them, especially for fingering suggestions, although most people seem to feel that modern Urtext editions are superior and worth buying.

Re the specific measures you mention:

In bar 25, I use 5324 1423 etc. (I’ve seen 5323 1323 in a couple of editions, but it doesn’t make sense to have an octave stretch between 1 and 3 when it’s so easily avoided.)

In bar 40 I use 3123 4123 etc., which seems to offer the best economy of motion. I’ve seen that variant where 5 is suggested for the A-flat (the first sixteenth note of the second group), but can’t see how it would be advantageous: it feels less secure (as you say), and requires slightly more lateral movement of the hand. (And Klindworth’s suggestion that would place the thumb on that A-flat seems really odd to me, but I guess it might work for some people.)

My only other advice (and sorry if it seems obvious!) is to test out fingering decisions while playing isolated, short, overlapping segments -- at high speed -- hands-separately. I believe this is the only effective way of choosing what will probably end up working best, because what feels comfortable in slow practice may turn out to be completely inefficient at the target tempo.

i'm using the Henle urtext. fingerings are relatively sparse, and i really should spend a little more time figuring out better fingerings. maybe i should get the National Edition, which i own for the Chopin Trio and Sonata, and they have lots and lots of fingering suggestions.

how much pedal do you guys recommend? the henle urtext has no pedal markings whatsoever, but pedals are everywhere in various recordings.

You haven't indicated whether you found earlier advice useful, so I wouldn't presume to make further recommendations.

No Chopin etude is easy, but for me, this one seems to be the most accessible out of all of them. Once practiced enough, the fingers do most of the work without you paying attention.

Definitely useful, though right now it's about the same. For measure 25, I'm gonna need a lot more practice to get 53241 to work, right now though I find 53141 to work reasonably well. The 2nd half of measure 26, I might try 5414, could work better than 5313 currently. I'd like to get 53241 under my fingers though, seems like a good and very useful fingering.

For measure 40, I might go back to 12341, but keep my wrist slightly elevated to get the 4 and the subsequent thumb under to work a little better. I don't know if I'd try the 1 on the A flat, but it also works reasonably well. There was one fingering that I changed from bar 25 to bar 40--in bar 27, which I didn't mention earlier--i was using 12341 on the down arpeggio. Now I'm using 123123, which works substantially better. I haven't tried to use something similar for make measure 40 just as comfortable yet.

In general, I need a little more strength on my LH 4th finger, especially when doing this awkward (for me) minor 3rd 3-4 stretch. I'm practicing all the minor 7th and dominant 7th arpeggios and I think I'll keep doing that for a while. You think that's a good idea?