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So I played my new Chopin Nocturne for my teacher and when I was finished felt pretty good about my performance....Right there I should be smelling a rat because whenever I feel good about something it usually spells trouble :>)

Seems I need more legato which is especially frustrating because I'd really been working on that. Or at least I thought I had...

Any general tips in practicing legato? I'm trying to play without pedal. Is that something good to do?

Appreciate any and all thoughts...

Best to all,
C.G.

Basics -

Hold a note down until the next note is played and then PASS THE WEIGHT to this next note.

Slow motion... as the next note is played, the previous note is then released but only once the next note is played.

It is way beyond playing legato and playing with a louder melody to make a musical sentence. Think TONE. Think a musical phrase.

That melody line needs single work even beyond playing it within a chord passage. Pass the weight, and legato, yes, but now do it with a singing melody line. TONE is important once the melody line is brought out with your singing legato line.

So so much, right?

But those details are the fun of playing!

Which nocturne? Was this Op. 32 No. 1, which you asked about a few weeks ago?


I believe that practicing without pedal is a very good thing ... without which it's pretty hard to tell if you're achieving good legato or not. Maybe that's what you meant?

('Playing' without pedal, is of course dicier. Sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes not. Just don't rely on pedaling to create a legato effect unless it's impossible otherwise -- but that's probably obvious.)

Anyway, if you meant Op. 32 No. 1 and didn't get anything more negative from your teacher than as concerns legato, I think you should be pretty pleased with yourself. It's not an easy piece, and requires much sensitivity to communicate its 'story' in the long phrases it contains.

But don't you just love how each stretto builds, and then is released by a pause, before the narrative continues? It's such a nice effect.

Legato is impossible without a very good fingering that allows legato...

Think: "pulling taffy. taffy"

Haha this was kind of that sort of epiphany-provoking-thinking-about-mindset...if that makes any sense at all
(It really helped for me in any case)
: ) and of course, just as chobeethaninov pointed out, good fingering is a must.

All of the above, plus keep your fingers closer to the keys.

This is all wonderfully useful. Thanks very, very much. Lil, that's pretty much what my teacher was trying to say, but I needed your explicitness. I've always been lazy about fingering, and now I see how big a liability that can be.

Cherch, yes, 32/1, And I am kinda proud to be playing it as it would have been beyond me a year ago. I just think it's so brilliant, that powerful ending coming out of nowhere and yet somehow at the same time making perfect sense...

And gd, also a good point re closeness to keys. I have a bad habit of lifting my left hand way to high, especially when there's a big jump involved.

I also like the taffy image. very useful I think...You guys are great :>)

Working on legato is not as fruitful as working on articulation of all sorts. Just as one's playing forte depends on one playing piano and all dynamics in between, playing legato depends on playing staccato and all articulations in between.

You know, I didn't expect to add anything else to this thread ... but unless I misunderstand your meaning, I have to say that I agree with this very much.

It might not work the same for everybody, but I like to practice the same passages using varying types/degrees of articulations, dynamics and even rhythms -- all of which might be very different from how I plan to eventually play it.

I guess, for me, it's a question of control: doing this gives me confidence that I'll be able to play the piece just as I want as a matter of choice -- not because I boxed myself into practicing one and only one interpretation.

So I don't offer that as general advice -- it's just something I'm throwing out there.

Re what's been said about fingering, though, I would go even further than those who say that legato depends on good fingering and say that everything depends on fingering! In my opinion, consistent adherence to efficient and comfortable fingering is a bedrock principle of piano technique.

(And, unlike how I described varying articulation, dynamics and rhythm at will just to know that I can, I would NEVER do that with fingerings. In my experience, fingering equates with muscle memory: it's ingrained, automatic and involuntary -- and therefore functions totally differently from conscious control over the expressive elements.)

Studying phrasing and the articulation that goes with it is vital for finding the proper fingering. I do not think Mozart left any original fingering, but not only have I been able to figure out fingering from his phrasing, I have been able to find phrasing by the way his music fits under my fingers and has to be phrased in order to fit the most natural fingering. I was able to confirm this as editions became better, and I could get the original phrasing.

I agree again that 'good' fingering must serve the articulation/phrasing that is eventually intended. The only point I tried to emphasize is that i-- for me -- such 'good' fingering, once settled upon, mustn't be changed up in practice sessions just for the heck of it in the way that expressive elements can be played around with.

I have no clue about Mozart's fingering preferences, but Howard Ferguson does devote a chapter to the evolution of fingering practices in his book 'Keyboard Interpretation' from the earliest instruments to modern times -- and another chapter to phrasing and articulation.

Seems so strange to think of a time when there were 'good' fingers and 'bad' fingers, and so interesting how some composers revolutionized the practices of the preceding eras. I find the evolution of performance practices over history an interesting topic.

And Ferguson's book is 'good' -- especially for a non-scholarly reader like me. It's relatively brief (my edition is about 200 pages), and he covers the breadth of the subject matter with ample detail (for me) but without lots of dense writing or encyclopedic depth.

At least we only have one 'bad finger' nowadays, and the gesture involved has nothing to do with piano playing (unless maybe where a performer uses it to respond to a heckling audience!).

And what about that thing of where a beginner has heard somewhere that 'you can't use your thumb on a black key'? Could that silliness have its roots in old-fashioned beliefs about bad and good fingers?

I conceive of legato as an act, not as a sound effect. The problem is not to get the notes to sound tied, the problem is to tie the notes.

It is a physical, sensual act. Much like kneading a bread dough, you have to penetrate into the piano.

Scale exercises are an excellent framework for working on legato. Slowly and with great concentration, playing the notes inside the instrument instead of on the keys.

Man,

Three wonderful thoughts on which to concentrate.

I honestly don't relate much to it. I'm trying ... but these suggestions are 'mental' (I don't mean that in a bad way ), and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it.

I guess what I mean is that it seems like a philosophical, theoretical, conceptual, almost spiritual even, kind of approach ... and I have trouble connecting it in a practical sense to what I do at the keyboard.

It's so interesting that we're all talking about the same craft, where we produce individual results that are way more alike than different ... but our thoughts and concepts about what are outwardly physical actions that lead to those results can be so very different.

There was a famous musician (wish I could remember his name) who would offer a toast while dining with friends:

"To the legato line!"

I think the most important part of legato playing, with the fingers or pedal or both, is listening. How else can one know when to relate the up/down motions of two successive legato notes or when to change the pedal?

This notion of penetrating into the piano. not just hitting the surface notes, is beguiling to me. I want to do it. I try to do it. I hear when others do it. But so far I'm not really doing it I don't think. To me it's almost mystical, in a physical, Zen Koan, kind of way...

How to get down into the piano, without also playing loudly seems a real paradox to me...

Psych yourself if it helps, but after all it's purely a mechanical function that requires practice.

Legato on the piano is an illusion, at best, because the piano is a percussion instrument. That said, some of the advice offered here is right on the money, i.e., a finger legato is about over-holding until the next note is depressed. There is another important factor, though, and that is how the finger contacts the key. Always play from the key, not from above the key. This cushions the attack and makes the connections seem more legato. ("Quality is determined by the number and prominence of overtones." So, the faster, "sharper" you strike the key, the more of the upper, more dissonant partials are set in motion, making an even more percussive sound.)

Consider also playing succeeding notes in the decay of the preceding note. This will give a very nice simulation of legato; it also implies a dimenuendo, which may not be called for. In any case, take care to consider where in the phrase hierarchy each succeeding note belongs. Music is not a democracy; not every note gets an equal vote.

Finally, perhaps more importantly, in Chopin it's the legato pedal that needs to be worked out.

Enjoy figuring out this wonderful music. Schumann was right: "Hats off, gentlemen, a genius."

I have been concentrating this past year on tone.

Try this.

One note, one finger. Let's choose A above middle C, 2nd finger RH

Try playing this note in 20 different ways and see what different effects you can achieve. For example, push in, pull out, wiggle as if you were playing a violin. Play it fast, slow and everything in between. Attack from above the key (fast and slow). Attack while your finger is ON the key. Learn what tones your finger can produce by its attack. Play close to the black keys, in the black keys and out on the edge of the key with different attacks. What works for you to achieve the tone you want? Warm, brittle, bright, etc.

Once you can comfortable achieve a sound you are looking for, try to achieve the same sound with another finger. Practice your thumb last (I find it the hardest)

Try it now - same note with your LH fingers.

Think of playing those strings instead of hitting a key.

Next try to go from one key to another (two different fingers playing legato). Can you keep them in the same level of tone? Not just legato, not just soft or loud, but in the same tone? Notice that different finger lengths and strengths are needed to produce the same tone. And when you get good at this, do this with cresc and dim!

Lots to work on for just single note melody lines. Use the fingering needed as if the rest of the harmony was being played as well.

Try with or without the pedal.

Now, just for fun try the above exercises with the UC pedal. What a difference in tone, right? It is not just used for playing soft, ya know!!!

So much! It is amazing that our brains and fingers can coordinate like this. Doesn't happen overnight, right?