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#1686250 - 05/28/11 07:26 PM WTC Which edition to buy
joangolfing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 667
Loc: Iowa
I'm interested in getting Book 2 of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier. Is the Henle worth the price over the Schirmer edition?

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#1686255 - 05/28/11 07:35 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: joangolfing
Is the Henle worth the price over the Schirmer edition?
*Y*E*S*
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1686262 - 05/28/11 07:57 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
chercherchopin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 550
Loc: Dystopia (but not Dystonia!)
I wonder which is 'the' Schirmer edition nowadays (given that you could once choose from WTC editions by Bischoff, Czerny and Hughes). The Search feature at their website is so ridiculous that it's not even possible to tell.

At Sheet Music Plus, it appears that the Czerny is still in print. And it's also public domain at IMSLP/Petrucci! Considering that Schirmer abandoned quality bindings with sewn-in pages in favor of cheaply glued guaranteed-to-fall-apart bindings decades ago, I wonder why anybody would buy it.
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#1686268 - 05/28/11 08:24 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1469
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Don't get Schirmer's Czerny edition.

-Daniel
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#1686278 - 05/28/11 08:57 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
joangolfing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 667
Loc: Iowa
Ok, thanks for the replies. It's Henle for me.

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#1686309 - 05/28/11 10:26 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4841
Loc: Seattle area, WA
YES!
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#1686325 - 05/28/11 11:13 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Schirmer should burn. If you can, get Barenreiter.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1686330 - 05/28/11 11:30 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Schirmer should burn. If you can, get Barenreiter.

Their editions of Rachmaninoff's 2nd and 3rd concertos are a steal compared to others though!
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1686333 - 05/28/11 11:36 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Yeah they're not so bad, but still - I've seen some pretty stupid stuff with Beethoven, and even more stupid stuff with (I'll never forget that) Schumann's a minor violin sonata - different NOTES and everything! I mean, really.. and for Beethoven 31/3, I remember seeing they'd group the notes differently, so that you actually will end up playing it wrong if you attempted their way, and wrong dynamics everywhere - most of which you couldn't even distinguish from the real ones (as opposed to their edited ones). I hate them! Except for Scarlatti - I remember there was one good editor haha..

Btw I use International and Dover for Rachmaninoff and never had a problem. When I was learning Rach 1 from Schirmer, I did notice a wrong cleff. When I was sight reading it, I ended up with hands crossed and sounding borderline atonal, and I was like, "this can't be right"


Edited by Pogorelich. (05/28/11 11:38 PM)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1686341 - 05/28/11 11:57 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: currawong]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18292
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: joangolfing
Is the Henle worth the price over the Schirmer edition?
*Y*E*S*


Yes, for Henle. However, because I can never remember which squiggle nor which curlicue nor which twitch is which when it comes to Baroque ornamentation, I've augmented my WTC with Willard Palmer's edition where all ornaments are written out above/below the staff. However, beware: this edition from Alfred Masterworks is heavily edited, but the editing is clearly distinguished from the original by being in grey type. As a second reference, but not to replace an Urtext, Palmer can be very informative.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1686343 - 05/29/11 12:08 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: Pogorelich.]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
If you can, get Barenreiter.


I see they are on sale right now at Sheet Music Plus. What makes them good for the WTC?

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#1686344 - 05/29/11 12:10 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: Pogorelich.]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.

Btw I use International and Dover for Rachmaninoff and never had a problem. When I was learning Rach 1 from Schirmer, I did notice a wrong cleff. When I was sight reading it, I ended up with hands crossed and sounding borderline atonal, and I was like, "this can't be right"


I was going to ask where, but I guess if I actually learn it then I'll notice, haha.

Schirmer is just plain hard to read, half the time. The other half, you're scratching your head trying for the life of you to figure out what the heck the composer actually meant...

Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
If you can, get Barenreiter.


I see they are on sale right now at Sheet Music Plus. What makes them good for the WTC?



To my understanding, their Bach scholarship is pretty on the top of the heap right now. Other than that, Barenreiters are always very easy to read with gorgeous fonts and whatnot; well spaced lines and notes on beautiful (slightly yellow, like Henle but more homey, if that makes sense) paper. I consider them just about equal with Henle these days, plus they have sensuously colored covers, different for each composer! If it's on sale where you are, go for it. No question, in my mind anyway.


Edited by AldenH (05/29/11 12:15 AM)

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#1686363 - 05/29/11 01:31 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
Adam Coleman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/10
Posts: 132
Peters.
_________________________
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music." - S. Rachmaninoff

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#1686400 - 05/29/11 05:03 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: BruceD]
chercherchopin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 550
Loc: Dystopia (but not Dystonia!)
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Yes, for Henle. However, because I can never remember which squiggle nor which curlicue nor which twitch is which when it comes to Baroque ornamentation, I've augmented my WTC with Willard Palmer's edition where all ornaments are written out above/below the staff. However, beware: this edition from Alfred Masterworks is heavily edited, but the editing is clearly distinguished from the original by being in grey type. As a second reference, but not to replace an Urtext, Palmer can be very informative.

Regards,

Unfortunately, Willard Palmer edited only Volume 1 of the WTC for Alfred.
_________________________
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#1686402 - 05/29/11 05:14 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: BruceD]
Gerard12 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 769
Loc: South Carolina
[/quote BruceD]Yes, for Henle. However, because I can never remember which squiggle nor which curlicue nor which twitch is which when it comes to Baroque ornamentation, I've augmented my WTC with Willard Palmer's edition where all ornaments are written out above/below the staff. However, beware: this edition from Alfred Masterworks is heavily edited, but the editing is clearly distinguished from the original by being in grey type. As a second reference, but not to replace an Urtext, Palmer can be very informative. [/quote]


I do the same. Ditto for the Inventions and Sinfonias.

(I find the Czerny edition to be a fascinating curiosity.... kind of like visiting a strange, alien and confounding
land.......or planet.......)


Edited by Gerard12 (05/29/11 05:16 AM)
_________________________
Piano performance and instruction (former college music professor).

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#1686421 - 05/29/11 07:33 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: Gerard12]
joangolfing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 667
Loc: Iowa
I ordered the Henle WTC Part 2. Thanks for this interesting discussion. I have the Henle Inventions and Sinfonien.

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#1686457 - 05/29/11 09:29 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: Gerard12]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Gerard12
I do the same. Ditto for the Inventions and Sinfonias.

(I find the Czerny edition to be a fascinating curiosity.... kind of like visiting a strange, alien and confounding
land.......or planet.......)


Yes!
Last week my teacher was so pleased with my P&F that she (as a reward wink ) pulled a book from the music cabinet and said "Have a look at this!". We poured over it in fascinated horror. It would have been less shocking if she had produced a bottle of whisky and poured me a shot!

I have Music Budapest Urtext which are fine for me (and the paper is lovely creamy colour). I haven't seen the Henle.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1686497 - 05/29/11 10:45 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: Canonie]
Amant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/07
Posts: 310
Loc: Southwest
Bärenreiter

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#1686768 - 05/29/11 10:15 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: chercherchopin]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18292
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: chercherchopin
[...]
Unfortunately, Willard Palmer edited only Volume 1 of the WTC for Alfred.


My mistake. Vol II is edited by Judith Schneider (studied with Igor Kipnis and Waldemar Döling; master classes with Gustav Leonhardt); fingering by Maria Sofianska.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1686779 - 05/29/11 10:36 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: Canonie]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6160
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Canonie

I have Music Budapest Urtext which are fine for me (and the paper is lovely creamy colour). I haven't seen the Henle.


Music Budapest is indeed worth a thought. I think I mentioned it in the Teachers Forum some time ago. Still Urtext, and pretty cheap. I like the creamy colour too. The only thing I don't like is that I need something to keep the book open... smile
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1686821 - 05/30/11 12:53 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: ChopinAddict]
NeilOS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 617
Loc: Los Angeles
Make sure it's an urtext. If you have the money, the Barenreiter is beautiful (they're having a 20% off sale) and Henle is one of my favorites for Baroque and Classical. And of course Wiener Urtext is great, albeit expensive.
_________________________
Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: http://www.pianoteacherlosangeles.com/

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#1686840 - 05/30/11 01:39 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: wr]
NeilOS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 617
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
If you can, get Barenreiter.


I see they are on sale right now at Sheet Music Plus. What makes them good for the WTC?



They're 20% off right now. The edition uses original sources and has a useful preface, which, if memory serves, includes Bach's own explication of the ornaments he used.
_________________________
Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: http://www.pianoteacherlosangeles.com/

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#1686844 - 05/30/11 01:43 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: chercherchopin]
NeilOS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 617
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: chercherchopin
[quote=BruceD]Yes, for Henle. However, because I can never remember which squiggle nor which curlicue nor which twitch is which when it comes to Baroque ornamentation, I've augmented my WTC with Willard Palmer's edition where all ornaments are written out above/below the staff.


The Henle edition includes Bach's own explication of the ornaments he used, as does the Barenreiter edition.
_________________________
Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: http://www.pianoteacherlosangeles.com/

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#1686867 - 05/30/11 03:53 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
crogersrx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 712
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted By: joangolfing
I'm interested in getting Book 2 of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier. Is the Henle worth the price over the Schirmer edition?


The Henle edition (an Urtext edition) would probably be THE definitive edition of the WTC to get, or perhaps Barenreiter edition. The Urtext editions have several advantages over the Shirmer series -- though they are more expensive. \

The Urtext editions are scholarly editions. They are based on research of the earliest existing texts, originals where possible, and trying to base the transcription on the music as it was written during the era it was composed. There have been changes in ornamentation and styles over the years, so if one is studying music of the Baroque era, and trying to play it based on Baroque style and technique, it is a great hindrance to play it from a hodge-podge style copy like many of the Schirmer's.

Though the Urtext editions like Henle are not necessarily the pinacle of quality printing, they are never shabby, and are clear and easy to read, with notation in a visually pleasing size and contrast. I've dumped most of my old schirmer editions at the used book stores for others to grab up.

I'd suggest that you buy the Henle WTC edition, and afterwards, you will probably start preferentially seeking out Urtext editions of most piano music, especially JS Bach.
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San Francisco, CA
1887 Knabe 6'4" (Rebuilt)

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#1686869 - 05/30/11 03:54 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: Pogorelich.]
crogersrx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 712
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Schirmer should burn. If you can, get Barenreiter.


I agree, I generally prefer the Bareneiter Urtexts over the Henle.
_________________________
Cary Rogers, PharmD
San Francisco, CA
1887 Knabe 6'4" (Rebuilt)

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#1686876 - 05/30/11 04:11 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21923
Loc: Oakland
Urtext is such a slippery term. I have Henle editions of some of Bach's music which is heavily edited, like the Chromatic Fantasy, and the Art of the Fugue. Most modern pianists would not be able to play those pieces if they were in their original forms. How many pianists would know that the Chromatic Fantasy is a realization of the original, and that it could be played in many different ways? The only authenticity that realization has is one of tradition. It cannot be attributed to Bach.

I have a fondness for the Bischoff editions, which are as scholarly as Henle, while quite practical for playing. I like them in the original Steingräber editions if I can find them.
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Semipro Tech

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#1686906 - 05/30/11 06:24 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 784
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: joangolfing
I ordered the Henle WTC Part 2. Thanks for this interesting discussion. I have the Henle Inventions and Sinfonien.

Henle sell two versions of the WTC: with and without fingering. I have their Book 2 without fingering. They generally use a system of upper staff = RH, lower staff = LH, so some fingering is implied, but I like working from a blank slate, because I usually write a lot of fingering into Bach! I can always refer to other editions for ideas on fingering if I need to.
_________________________
Julian

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#1686913 - 05/30/11 07:11 AM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
joangolfing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 667
Loc: Iowa
I ordered the Henle WTC 2 edition with the fingerings.

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#1687397 - 05/30/11 09:51 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: joangolfing
I ordered the Henle WTC 2 edition with the fingerings.


I am glad you started this thread - it was timely for me as well. I ended up ordering both volumes of the Barenreiter today, and am excited about starting to use them. My old Bishoff and Peters are literally in pieces.

Thanks to everybody for their recommendations.

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#1687399 - 05/30/11 09:53 PM Re: WTC Which edition to buy [Re: joangolfing]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Does the Baerenreiter have fingerings for the WTC?

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