I'm interested in getting Book 2 of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier. Is the Henle worth the price over the Schirmer edition?

*Y*E*S*

I wonder which is 'the' Schirmer edition nowadays (given that you could once choose from WTC editions by Bischoff, Czerny and Hughes). The Search feature at their website is so ridiculous that it's not even possible to tell.

At Sheet Music Plus, it appears that the Czerny is still in print. And it's also public domain at IMSLP/Petrucci! Considering that Schirmer abandoned quality bindings with sewn-in pages in favor of cheaply glued guaranteed-to-fall-apart bindings decades ago, I wonder why anybody would buy it.

Don't get Schirmer's Czerny edition.

-Daniel

Ok, thanks for the replies. It's Henle for me.

YES!

Schirmer should burn. If you can, get Barenreiter.

Their editions of Rachmaninoff's 2nd and 3rd concertos are a steal compared to others though!

Yeah they're not so bad, but still - I've seen some pretty stupid stuff with Beethoven, and even more stupid stuff with (I'll never forget that) Schumann's a minor violin sonata - different NOTES and everything! I mean, really.. and for Beethoven 31/3, I remember seeing they'd group the notes differently, so that you actually will end up playing it wrong if you attempted their way, and wrong dynamics everywhere - most of which you couldn't even distinguish from the real ones (as opposed to their edited ones). I hate them! Except for Scarlatti - I remember there was one good editor haha..

Btw I use International and Dover for Rachmaninoff and never had a problem. When I was learning Rach 1 from Schirmer, I did notice a wrong cleff. When I was sight reading it, I ended up with hands crossed and sounding borderline atonal, and I was like, "this can't be right"

Yes, for Henle. However, because I can never remember which squiggle nor which curlicue nor which twitch is which when it comes to Baroque ornamentation, I've augmented my WTC with Willard Palmer's edition where all ornaments are written out above/below the staff. However, beware: this edition from Alfred Masterworks is heavily edited, but the editing is clearly distinguished from the original by being in grey type. As a second reference, but not to replace an Urtext, Palmer can be very informative.

Regards,

I see they are on sale right now at Sheet Music Plus. What makes them good for the WTC?

I was going to ask where, but I guess if I actually learn it then I'll notice, haha.

Schirmer is just plain hard to read, half the time. The other half, you're scratching your head trying for the life of you to figure out what the heck the composer actually meant...



To my understanding, their Bach scholarship is pretty on the top of the heap right now. Other than that, Barenreiters are always very easy to read with gorgeous fonts and whatnot; well spaced lines and notes on beautiful (slightly yellow, like Henle but more homey, if that makes sense) paper. I consider them just about equal with Henle these days, plus they have sensuously colored covers, different for each composer! If it's on sale where you are, go for it. No question, in my mind anyway.

Peters.

Unfortunately, Willard Palmer edited only Volume 1 of the WTC for Alfred.

[/quote BruceD]Yes, for Henle. However, because I can never remember which squiggle nor which curlicue nor which twitch is which when it comes to Baroque ornamentation, I've augmented my WTC with Willard Palmer's edition where all ornaments are written out above/below the staff. However, beware: this edition from Alfred Masterworks is heavily edited, but the editing is clearly distinguished from the original by being in grey type. As a second reference, but not to replace an Urtext, Palmer can be very informative. [/quote]


I do the same. Ditto for the Inventions and Sinfonias.

(I find the Czerny edition to be a fascinating curiosity.... kind of like visiting a strange, alien and confounding
land.......or planet.......)

I ordered the Henle WTC Part 2. Thanks for this interesting discussion. I have the Henle Inventions and Sinfonien.

Yes!
Last week my teacher was so pleased with my P&F that she (as a reward ) pulled a book from the music cabinet and said "Have a look at this!". We poured over it in fascinated horror. It would have been less shocking if she had produced a bottle of whisky and poured me a shot!

I have Music Budapest Urtext which are fine for me (and the paper is lovely creamy colour). I haven't seen the Henle.

Bärenreiter

My mistake. Vol II is edited by Judith Schneider (studied with Igor Kipnis and Waldemar Döling; master classes with Gustav Leonhardt); fingering by Maria Sofianska.

Regards,

Music Budapest is indeed worth a thought. I think I mentioned it in the Teachers Forum some time ago. Still Urtext, and pretty cheap. I like the creamy colour too. The only thing I don't like is that I need something to keep the book open...

Make sure it's an urtext. If you have the money, the Barenreiter is beautiful (they're having a 20% off sale) and Henle is one of my favorites for Baroque and Classical. And of course Wiener Urtext is great, albeit expensive.

They're 20% off right now. The edition uses original sources and has a useful preface, which, if memory serves, includes Bach's own explication of the ornaments he used.

The Henle edition includes Bach's own explication of the ornaments he used, as does the Barenreiter edition.

The Henle edition (an Urtext edition) would probably be THE definitive edition of the WTC to get, or perhaps Barenreiter edition. The Urtext editions have several advantages over the Shirmer series -- though they are more expensive. \

The Urtext editions are scholarly editions. They are based on research of the earliest existing texts, originals where possible, and trying to base the transcription on the music as it was written during the era it was composed. There have been changes in ornamentation and styles over the years, so if one is studying music of the Baroque era, and trying to play it based on Baroque style and technique, it is a great hindrance to play it from a hodge-podge style copy like many of the Schirmer's.

Though the Urtext editions like Henle are not necessarily the pinacle of quality printing, they are never shabby, and are clear and easy to read, with notation in a visually pleasing size and contrast. I've dumped most of my old schirmer editions at the used book stores for others to grab up.

I'd suggest that you buy the Henle WTC edition, and afterwards, you will probably start preferentially seeking out Urtext editions of most piano music, especially JS Bach.

I agree, I generally prefer the Bareneiter Urtexts over the Henle.

Urtext is such a slippery term. I have Henle editions of some of Bach's music which is heavily edited, like the Chromatic Fantasy, and the Art of the Fugue. Most modern pianists would not be able to play those pieces if they were in their original forms. How many pianists would know that the Chromatic Fantasy is a realization of the original, and that it could be played in many different ways? The only authenticity that realization has is one of tradition. It cannot be attributed to Bach.

I have a fondness for the Bischoff editions, which are as scholarly as Henle, while quite practical for playing. I like them in the original Steingräber editions if I can find them.

Henle sell two versions of the WTC: with and without fingering. I have their Book 2 without fingering. They generally use a system of upper staff = RH, lower staff = LH, so some fingering is implied, but I like working from a blank slate, because I usually write a lot of fingering into Bach! I can always refer to other editions for ideas on fingering if I need to.

I ordered the Henle WTC 2 edition with the fingerings.

I am glad you started this thread - it was timely for me as well. I ended up ordering both volumes of the Barenreiter today, and am excited about starting to use them. My old Bishoff and Peters are literally in pieces.

Thanks to everybody for their recommendations.

Does the Baerenreiter have fingerings for the WTC?

Why is it - or why does it appear to be so - that one hears much more of the Preludes and Fugues from Book I than one does those from Book II? Does it appear to anyone else that those from Book II are even more "abstract," more intellectual or, to put it otherwise, even harder to grasp interpretively than those from Book I?

Has Bach evolved so much between 1722 and 1742 that the Preludes and Fugues in the second book are even less accessible as musical experiences than those from Book I. Does it take a much more mature musical mind to appreciate the Preludes and Fugues from Book II? Some of those from Book I have almost earned the status of being "popular" among those who play Bach, whether they have to or want to, but none of those from Book II seem - to me - to have acquired that dubious status or that kind of exposure.

Regards,

No.

Book I does seem generally more popular, I agree. I don't know why, really. To me, book II seems perhaps more spare and less showy, but I'm not sure about the accessibility issue. It doesn't seem generally less accessible to me; it's just a bit more - what's the word? - "inward", maybe.

[quote=SlatterFan... but I like working from a blank slate, because I usually write a lot of fingering into Bach! I can always refer to other editions for ideas on fingering if I need to. [/quote]

I agree. I am working on lots of JS Bach right now, mostly from Barenreiter Urtex editions, but some Henle, and my instructor suggests that I get the ones without the ornamentations written out, without the fingerings written, etc. It was painful at first, but there is a benefit in learning the pieces in their (more or less) original forms, to really read and execute the ornaments instead of written out approximations, and to devise your own fingerings.

After reading all the Barenreiter recommendations I ordered both parts from sheetmusicplus.com on sale for 22.36 each. This has been a very valuable thread for me.

I don't have book II. I have the Henle edition of Book I. I think I'll stop in at JW Pepper today and check out the Henle and Barenreiter editions. I'm in the mood for Bach lately. It's going to be a fun afternoon! Great and timely thread.


Denise

Henle, or Barenreiter. I also have Tovey's edition (ABRSM), which is an interesting find (IF it can still be found).

Personally, Book II, is by far my favorite, the one I feel most comfortable with, and the one I play most. I agree that it's a bit more difficult to "grasp" for most than it's counterpart and not only because of the reasons Bruce has given here, but because it's "thought" to be technically "easier" (which, of course, is nonsense). Over the years I've come to think of each book as a whole and cannot hear a single prelude or fugue without hearing that which ensues. I realise that Bach did not compose the WTC's contents with this sort of continuum in mind, but for me it's one complete (unbelievable) work.