Advice please.

After cleaning the butt leather, some keys click more than before when the jack springs forward, some less (like the first hammer I tried!)

Reblitz says "Jacks sometimes squeak when they slide out from under their hammer knuckles or hammer butts. If graphite applied to the buckskin doesn't cure the squeak, clean the buckskin. Fill a hypo-oiler (from a piano supply company) with a solution of eight parts naphtha and one part mineral oil, and insert it into the cloth under the buckskin. Apply enough to flush the old dirt and graphite out of the pores of the buckskin. Apply new graphite, and the squeaks should be gone."

What's best today: graphite or a molybdenum disulfide dry film lubricant? Or will either do?

There have been some previous postings about this but I am not sure there was a conclusive answer.

Many thanks

Ian

Teflon powder. Apply with a small brush, then rub it in (in the direction of the jack) with a small plastic scraper. If you have action cradles, it is much easier to do with the action upside down and bridle straps unhooked.

if you can find it, the best solution is solid block graphite. I have a small bit that has lasted my entire life. If you "rough" the back checks, or butts, it works like a charm. Also good for grand key bed.

Yes! If you do use Teflon powder, or talcum powder, protect your lungs. I guess you could use a respirator. I usually use an oversize handkerchief tied around my face like a bandit in the old west

Never been a problem with me.

Bill Spurlock sells high quality teflon powder, I am still finding new uses.

Of course!!! don't breath it in. But it is not not dangerous I believe. I'm not dead yet and I love the stuff!!! Lyre systems, keyframe glides, grand rollers, butt skin, even squeaky key bushings. A little goes a long way. You rub a very small amount between two fingers, you will see what I mean.

Thanks for that link accordeur.
I was just about to search for a source myself and you save me the effort.

A pleasure Sparky! That stuff is expensive, but it's the best. You get what you pay for!

I have a few of Mr Spurlock's jigs as well, they are really good.

His hammer tapering and arching jigs are the best, I use them all the time. And his key bushing system is really efficient,

I haven't found teflon powder to do much and it doesn't stay where it is put very well. I prefer to use the liquid graphite that is suspended in alcohol (DAG) and apply it to the jack, not the leather. Cleaning the leather with a tooth brush seems a better idea than trying to wash with naptha. Be careful with naptha it is very much like gasoline.

I never used to consider Teflon a health risk until several years ago. A client of mine, who is a nurse, warned me against inhaling or ingesting Teflon.

Just a casual search of the internet turned up the following article.

Below are several quotes and a link:

Teflon has been making headlines. But they are headlines that its manufacturer, DuPont Co, would rather live without. The focus of the stories is PFOA, a chemical which is a key component in Teflon and other nonstick coatings.

A scientific advisory panel to the US Environmental Protection Agency recently unanimously recommended that PFOA should be considered a likely human carcinogen. This classification means that there is evidence of cancer causing effects from both human and animal studies.

Leaked documents exposed that DuPont hid studies showing the risks of a Teflon related chemical, Zonyl which breaks down into PFOA. Zonyl is used to line microwave popcorn bags, candy wrappers, pizza boxes and hundreds of other food containers. The documents describe “laboratory tests showing [Zonyl] came off paper coatings and leached into foods at levels three times higher than the FDA limit set in 1967.” Other tests showed “anemia and damage to ...kidneys and livers” in rats and dogs fed Zonyl for three months.

Studies conducted earlier by the Center for Disease Control found PFOA in the bloodstream of 95% of US citizens. According to the EPA, PFOA can remain in the human body for up to four years.

http://www.teflonhealthhazard.com/teflon-labeled-cancer-risk.html


You may also want to check out:
http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/drug-toxic_chemicals/teflon-warning.htm


And some additional quotes:
The Teflon chemical perfluoroctanoic acid (PFOA) or C-8 has been linked to raised cholesterol levels, heart attacks, and strokes in workers at Teflon manufacturing plants and to a variety of cancers and other serious side effects in animal studies. Teflon chemicals have been linked to the following side effects:

* Raised blood cholesterol levels
* Heart attack
* Strokes
* Cancer
* Breast cancer
* Testicular cancer
* Pancreatic cancer
* Immune System damage
* Pituitary gland damage
* Developmental problems

http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/drug-toxic_chemicals/teflon-side-effects.htm

I am not a fan of graphite - I have seen too many cases of it sloppily applied where it doesn't belong. If you do feel compelled to use it - do it very sparingly and only on the wood parts. Graphite has a flaky structure so it needs to be burnished to be effective.

I use Spurlock's teflon powder as well. (many years ago I used to help Bill sell his products at the PTG conventions!) The product he sells has a different structure than many others: it is very fine and irregularly shapped so it clumps better which helps it stay in place better. For knuckles I just rub it in with my fingers. It only takes a small amount. Then I burnish it into the leather by gently blocking the hammers with one hand and depressing the keys with the other. This forces the jack firmly into the knuckle and helps push the material into place.

what Ryan said. I hate graphite because it gets all over everything when you pull the action on a grand including your nice white pants and the nice white carpeting. Ever try and get it out of a customers carpeting? Well, you shouldn't have to try.... To many techs just dump it on or put it where it does not belong. It's messy stuff.

Personally, I like powdered soap stone. Not a stick form but, powdered. I mix it up with alcohol wood alcohol or something like it and use it as a paste working it is as Ryan does and with a paint brush on the knuckles and my fingers. I use it on many parts of the piano like the wippen cushions, drop screw leather, let off buttons etc. Once the alcohol dries, you have pure powdered soap stone again. Same with mixing it in a dish. Once the alcohol dries, you have lost nothing, the soap stone goes back to just powder again. I've had great luck with it over the years. It works really well.

I just rub the offending part with the tip of a pencil. I do not like lubricants of any kind in a piano, but that seems the least offensive.

BDB:

Interesting to read about the pencil treatment here. I've read that pencil "lead" is not pure graphite, but contains binders that could be counter-productive in the lubrication process.

All:

I even remember reading (on this forum, I think) that graphite shouldn't be used because it's hygroscopic - which made no sense to me at the time, and still doesn't.

I rarely use powdered graphite, too messy, difficult to control. About the only time is if I need to lubricate bushings on grand dampers in the rail, which is rare.... For that I use a handmade tool... an umbrella support piece that is PERFECT, .. I have it in a little handle, and put powdered graphite on inside of said umbrella piece and work that down into damper rail felt of grands. A charm. Particularly on the imported grands that stick at that point...

Do the same with teflon powder. VERY LITTLE teflon powder, with the same tool. There is no risk for you to get sick, the eggs you overcooked in your teflon pan contain just as much I would believe ( but do not know). It works!!!

Thank you all for your advice.

The voting is:

• Teflon Powder: 4 including one from Germany
  
• Graphite: 1 solid block, 1 liquid (DAG), 1 pencil
  
• Soap stone: 1 powdered in alcohol

Teflon powder carries a serious health warning!

As a reminder, there more in the "Lubricating jacks with graphite" thread. Jerry Viviano's experiments there indicate burnished graphite is good on jacks.

Carefully applied Teflon powder seems better than graphite powder for a quick fix, if only because it makes less mess. Maybe you can't beat a pencil when you can get it to the offending spot.

Cleaning comes first so, before sharpening a pencil or getting some PTFE, I'd better go back and check there is no residue on the leather and the jacks are in good order. Something must be causing clicks at mp and mf but not at pp and ff.

Ian

I don't like graphite anywhere; most formulations contain oil, that attracts dust.

I pour a thin line of Teflon power onto an old felt mute, and then raise all the hammers, evening them out with my other hand if need be, and wipe it on a whole section in about three seconds. It rubs into the leather.

I also use it in key bushings, and on the keybed.

--Cy--

[/list]Teflon powder carries a serious health warning!

g.

Ian
[/quote]

Teflon is dangerous to breath when the temperature is high enough to cause it to off-gas (Like a teflon coated pan left on a burner with no heat regulation). Do you know of another health issue?

I vote for teflon as well. Graphite is hygroscopic. It attracts moisture whereas teflon is totally inert until it reaches a high enough temp. Not normally a problem while playing or tuning a piano.

A quote from ABC News 20/20 program:
According to the Environmental Protection Agency, some of the highest C-8 levels were found in some of the children tested. Even DuPont says that it cannot rule out that Teflon-connected products, such as Stainmaster carpet treatment, give off the chemical, although at blood levels the company says are far too small to be a problem.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=124363

If carpet treatments can expose one to C-8, then heat might not be necessary.

I still think it makes good sense to take precautions to avoid inhaling the stuff.

Edit: I might just go back to talcum powder.

Edit: Another quote from the same article:
"And how could they not be in our blood?" Houlihan said. "They're in such a huge range of consumer products. We're talking about Teflon, Stainmaster, Gore-tex, Silverstone. So if you buy clothing that's coated with Teflon or something else that protects it from dirt and stains, those chemicals can absorb directly through the skin."

So using your fingers to apply it could also cause a problem? Yep, I'm going back to talcum powder until it's proven one way or the other.

Something to think about indeed Mr. Gumbosky. I've always made sure not to inhale it, same as I do with all the other chemicals we are exposed to. I will now be even more diligent, but I will not stop using it. Thanks for the info.

Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to teflon, I don't know.

You are right; it does seem that this thread is forking.

I have "stuff" to do this evening. If you or anyone else wants to start a Teflon thread this evening, that would be great. Or, I'll start one tomorrow.

Btw, you and anyone else are welcome to call me by my first name: Joe. It's a lot less typing than Mr. Gumbosky.

Protek.

Which would be a teflon suspended in naphtha, I believe.

Definitely not naphtha. It would have the characteristic lighter fluid smell, I would think.

I don't know what is used to make protek/clp or whatever other name it is given. But it is another product that works really well. I get it by 500 mml bottle, and when I pour it into smaller containers (application bottles, syringes etc..) it has only a minuscule amount of mineral spirit odour. Very little odour when applied to centerpin bushings, damper lever felt, damper rod bushings etc... Even in the customers house. CA glue on the other hand! ouf!!! better open the windows!!! But that would be another thread!

Can somebody convince me that any lubricant at all is needed on hammer butts?

Chris

I am inclined to agree with you, though Mr Reblitz says it can cure squeaks.

In my post at the start of this thread I mentioned "clicks":


while Reblitz mentions "squeaks":


In the end I guessed my clicks were due to some residue on the butt leather and cleaned a couple again. Result: no difference.

I then noticed the clicks seemed to happen after hammer struck the string so I put them down to the butt hitting the jack on the rebound. Next time the action comes out I'll look at the jack flanges, etc. in case there is an underlying problem. A slight letoff adjustment, reducing hammer letoff, has stopped the clicks for now.

So no lubricant needed to deal with clicks!

Ian

That's up to you!

Absolutely! Decades ago, Schaff's Garfield center pin easing solution was pretty much the thing, but I refused to use it unless I had the action in my shop; and even then I brought it outside for the dousing.

CA glue....I've come across three pianos so far that were doped with it, and in each case, the results were disastrous. To top it off, the pins are still too loose to hold.