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Nice Job Klink! I felt like you really took control on the second half. That Aeborsold is way too fast for sure. How long did you work on this?

Yup, internalizing is a hard one on this. One thing I finally observed after playing it is that it is relentless. No pause. There's no natural break in the music. So if I lose my concentration for an instant, it's hard to recover.

For memorization purposes, I was just playing the chords at some extremely high tempo to see if I can manage to stay in the form. No cheat sheets. We'll see if it works. If I can just overcome this, I can relax when playing it.

Thanks jazzwee, I transcribed two versions and learned to play one of them, it took a week or so but I've forgotten it now. Some of the things seems to be in my mind still though. I mostly transcribed it because I wanted to be more at ease with 3/4 which I think Evans is a master at.
I agree with the relentless thing, it's so easy to overplay it to just to keep your place, like you have to resolve every dominant. I really think I should resort more to the melody to break it up a bit..

Hi beeboss
Thanks for sharing the Bach WTC2 piece with us. I love Bach and have been working on WTC1. But lately I’ve been spending my practice time on the JOI course, the one Knotty is doing.
I thought I sounded decent until I studied Jarrett’s recordings. Compared to him, my playing is an embarrassment.

I really liked your playing and found it similar to Jarrett’s. As is entirely appropriate for the era, it seemed you did not apply too much emotion. It’s like you let the melody ring out its own virtue, hence you did not need to insert your own loud-softs, staccatos, variation of tempo etc.

Besides WTC2 being harder than WTC1, what are the main differences you see between the two books ?

Have you ever tried to improvise over any of the WTC pieces ?
I tried unsuccessfully with the easiest, the C major prelude from WTC 1. I found that I always ended up applying the classical rhythm.

Right now I’ve started composing in jazz. When I become good enough to get to the improvisation stage, I can’t wait to try again at improvising over Bach.

Hi everyone
I enjoyed Klinkklonk’s latest video from Hal. I can see how screaming the melody inside your head can help virtuoso playing. But how does it work for ballads ?

Hi Klink,

well played on Very Early. Thanks for posting that. Your lines are good.
I had a real problem getting used to playing this without the chart, but eventually I nailed it. I found I always messed up at the same couple of points so I just worked on those points a lot. I think i got it in my brain or life now.

Hi Custard,
Emotion in music is pretty hard to talk about. I rememebr Jarrett was going on about not playing Bach in a too pianistic way, letting the themes speak for themselves, and Gould talked about not romanticizing the music too much. That sounds right to me. I did work quite a bit at the dynamics articulation and rhythm though and I still have a long way to go. I do like Jarretts wtc (although I can't handle his bk2 as that is harpsichord) even if its not my favourite.

Bk 1 is plenty hard. Enough for the best concert pianists to perform it in concert in its entirety. I don't see how bk2 can be harder, but then again I have only just started it.

I never have tried improvising over Bach, I don't think I could. I could get into the idea of doing some arrangements or reharmonizations of the themes, or taking the sequences and rewriting the melodies. Have you heard Uri Caine's Goldberg? Interesting stuff.

Hi Beeboss
You've got me interested in Uri Caine's Goldberg jazz improvs. I have to admit that I don't even know the classical version of Goldberg Variations. Whose classical recording should I listen to ?
After I familiarise myself with the classical version, I will then be able to appreciate Caine's. Can you still recognise the Goldberg melodies when you listen to Caine's or does he embellish far outside the original like some bebop tunes ?

Have you heard that John Lewis improvised over Bach ? I don't have any of the John Lewis songs.

apple here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCuALWK6ZNg&feature=related

I don't know Uri Caine's Goldberg well but I think he basically did a new set of variations in all kinds of weird and wonderful styles.
As for standard versions I like Gould (eighties version is better) and Tureck, although there are many other great interpretations.

.

Here's my version of Very Early.

There's so many mistakes, but what can I do? The only good thing I can say is that I stuck with the form in spite of the mistakes (well mostly...did miss a beat). Comments and critique always welcome.

I may have played it faster than I intended.

Very Early
http://www.box.net/shared/dr8neqve9f

Thanks Klink and Beeboss. I just listened to Gould and Tureck. I think it's cool how even though Bach did not write specifically for the piano, great pianists have the ability to interpret a master so well.
It's like how you guys can take a Miles Davis or Charlie Parker song and interpret it for the piano.

Hi Jazzwee,
well done with Very Early, you are on the right track I think. Don't worry about the mistakes, everyone has those. If I had to make a suggestion I would say that you could do with digging in a bit more. Do you ever play it with an abersold or backing track so you can just work on the rhythmic placement of the chords separate from the solo lines in isolation? Playing it solo piano there is no let up, you can't just relax for a few beats or play with just the RH for example.

Thanks for the encouragement Beeboss. Did you mean, flexible comping on the LH? I just realized that my LH just grew stiff in there after the head, stuck in one style. I should be able to vary that even in Solo piano.

You can see how I was so intent on not losing the chord that I didn't have any free neurons for that during the solo. I'll work that in.

Solo piano does pose an extra challenge. In the confusion, I revert to just shell voicings. When I first played this, I did it stride style like Evans (Bass + Rootless), which was even more relentless. Then I was thinking of the LH and not the solo.

No I hardly do Aeborsold because as Klink has shown, the tempo is not within your control (at least in practice). I may have played it as fast as Klink did but not intentionally.

I thought you did well. You have a nice touch. Solo piano is just rough, always get's me frustrated. I agree with Beeboss about working on the solo lines in isolation. You could use an abersold track in amazing slowdowner, like the track I used, if you give me your mail I´ll send it to you.

Thanks Klink. PM'd you.

I don't know why I ended up playing it so fast. That's from the Red Light tension. I just wanted to record it one shot and take what I got. It's good to do that as I find my weaknesses quickly .

How about a discussion about does anyone really understand the chords to Very Early and why they are what they are?

Ok, I'll start since I'm the only one currently here.:)

I was working on the piece about a month ago and was learning it solely from the horrible quality youtube recording of Bill Evans and Gomez and Morell. I could barely hear the bass for the life of me at most times, and when I did sometimes I was confused by the intonation of a few notes. And actually I'm still not entirely sure of one chord in at the end of the B section (is it really an A7 or was it a Bb in the bass?)
In any case, I learned the thing by ear, and then kind of shelved it for a bit. That is until Klinkklonk posted his cool version, then JW his version. I wanted to look at it again because listening to both versions confirms my belief that they were learned in different ways. Yes, I know that they were, but the soloing and voicings also tell me the initial process was different.

In any case, I did see a legit version of Very Early about two weeks ago because my curiosity was getting the best of me insofar as what JW was saying about the 'chords being straight forward enough, all being 7 or maj 7 chords' or something pretty close to that. And yes, in the book they are what he described. But they are wrong. I think I stated that earlier and everyone ignored me. I suppose people can choose to ignore me again...

But if you choose not to, then try to understand what I mean by they are wrong chords. They are not all wrong, and not really that wrong at all, but they definitely do not speak to the idea of tritone substitution and what Evans really seemed to be doing.

Earlier in the thread I think I stated that the first 8 bars are in C. Looking at the book would make you think otherwise C, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj, Dbmaj, G7 C, C. And if you soloed with just these changes you'd get a circle of 5ths type of sound. However, although I didn't exactly transcribe ANY of Bill Evans' solo on Very Early, I don't think he had the circle of 5ths in mind. From what I heard it was more like C, C/Bb, A7alt/Eb, D7alt/Ab, Db7b5, Db7b5/G, C, C. Which in my mind presents a completely different way of approaching these bars. And also in my mind make them all point back to C.

I could go on to do the whole tune, but want to jump to the B section where it starts on a Bmaj type chord. I haven't referred to the book again, but I believe this section makes sense with these chords: F#sus/B, G7sus, Absus/Db , A7#9, Bb13, Gsus, C, D7b5b13/Ab, Dbmaj9 G7alt, C, (Eb to) A7alt, Dsus, G, C, C. This section, although it now looks really, really hard to read, will actually have a logical direction, and make the flow sound like it was meant to.

Look at the underlying chromaticism in both sections and it is far easier to play. AND, I believe will make the tune more understandable to boot. This isn't to say the solo lines on top ought to be chromatic. Not at all. In fact, I'd suggest that a smaller scale can be used (with approach notes and whatnot) over each section, or at least the A section.

In any case, I just thought I'd share what I've been working on. And please, before anyone chooses to argue why I can't be right, I'd really like it if you'd try the changes for yourself first and see if they don't make more sense.

So, for me, this is why learning tunes like Very Early from a book may make it ultimately much harder to understand a tune. And also, for me, I can now take the overlying chordal structure of the tune and if I choose to reharmonize it I can with logical reasoning, or I can also at least now intentionally extend the solo in different harmonic directions, rather than leave it up to my fingers and chance, both of which fail me more often than not.

Ok, anyone care to comment now?

scep, haven't played Very Early but your focus seems to always be finding the "right" chords.

The spirit of playing jazz is improvising and putting your own twist on things. Chords are just the tools to do it. Why not figure out the chords and voicings you like, and use them. They are just a blueprint.

I think you mentioned something similar with Nefertiti. There's more than one way to play it. If we all played it the same it would be boring.

That's why I don't even bother trying to analyze songs via chords. Listen to the phrasing, dynamics, mood, timing.

Maybe you have a different, more strict approach to songs but to me you seem too concerned with the theory and not enough with the soul.

hey anyone tried playing Duke Ellington's Reflections in D? Bill Evans does a great version on Mcpartland's show. Could be an idea for the next song we try out.

Hi Sceptical,

You chords are so out that it is obvious that your source material is very flawed. In the name of research (legal disclaimer) I have uploaded a better quality version for you to listen to, from Moonbeams...

http://www.divshare.com/download/11325287-49a


In this I can clearly hear that the root movement in the b section goes ... B Ab Db Bb B G C etc

(Interesting that they only solo round the A section)



What I don't understand is why you would think that transcribing the changes from a dodgy out of tune version where you can't hear the bass properly is going to lead you to a better understanding of the tune. Getting the right bass notes is essential before you can do any kind of harmonic analysis.
Real books are not perfect by any means, sometimes the changes are wrong, sometimes the composer or musician changes the sequence between performances so ultimately there is no definitive version, which makes authenticity impossible even in principle. Listening and transcribing is generally a better way of learning a tune, but only if you do it from a decent source.