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#1681416 - 05/20/11 07:12 AM Brodmann Artist Series
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
I see that Brodmann have released/are releasing a new line of Artist Series pianos built in Germany. A couple of videos on youtube shows that the pianos look and sound quite like the current PE pianos. What are the differences, what will the price point be? Since you can't tell from a youtube video, has anyone played any of these instruments? Brodmanns sound pretty good as it is, so this will be interesting.

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#1681434 - 05/20/11 08:05 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
JeffBC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Haverhill, MA
FYI, I believe one of the videos joe80 is referring to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKP3RJYNUP4
_________________________
Kawai MP5 / Ivory Italian Grand
C.C. Harvey 52" Upright Grand
Yamaha M202 Console

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#1681452 - 05/20/11 08:25 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
I've played the Brodmann 212 cm grand and it impressed the heck out of me.
Too bad their website is so horrendous.
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#1689012 - 06/02/11 04:35 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1030
Loc: west coast island, canada
I'm interested to know/hear more about this new line of Artist Series Brodmann Pianos.

There has been recent discussion here regarding Brodmann Pianos, but barely a response to this thread from a few days back. And none from the several Brodmann dealers/promoters here on PW.
Every time Brodmann comes out with a new 'series' it seems to get more confusing.
In the short history of their company they've introduced the BG series, the Conservatory Edition, the Professional Edition, the Vienna Edition, Taylor Pianos, now the Artist Series.
How confusing do you want to make a small company which claimed to make only 500 grand pianos a year, a couple of years back.

How difficult is it to get some honest insight and clarity in to a companies product, what they manufacture , distribute, and what they actually have for sale?
I've wondered why there hasn't been more discussion about Brodmann here over the past couple of years... after all, it's been rated as one of the best pianos currently manufactured in Asia.
There were several posts back a few years ago regarding Brodmann .... skepticism , optimism , accolades...
There has been criticism of their website here on PW recently , but one of their Chinese rivals in the N. American market , Hailun, doesn't appear to be doing much better or very forthcoming with their website , in regards to their product and spec information.

Manufacturers, designers, distributers, dealers, techs and tuners , salespeople, consumers, players, performers, listeners...

The folks that actually put the thing together and those that make the components,
How does anyone really expect to get any sort of unbiased opinion ?

Back to Brodmann Artist Series Pianos,
asked by the OP,
Does anyone here have knowledge, experience with this latest Brodmann offering ?

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#1689097 - 06/02/11 09:47 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: Dara]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7191
Loc: torrance, CA

Quote:
In the short history of their company they've introduced the BG series, the Conservatory Edition, the Professional Edition, the Vienna Edition, Taylor Pianos, now the Artist Series.
How confusing do you want to make a small company which claimed to make only 500 grand pianos a year, a couple of years back.

How difficult is it to get some honest insight and clarity in to a companies product, what they manufacture , distribute, and what they actually have for sale?
I've wondered why there hasn't been more discussion about Brodmann here over the past couple of years... after all, it's been rated as one of the best pianos currently manufactured in Asia.
There were several posts back a few years ago regarding Brodmann .... skepticism , optimism , accolades...
There has been criticism of their website here on PW recently , but one of their Chinese rivals in the N. American market , Hailun, doesn't appear to be doing much better or very forthcoming with their website , in regards to their product and spec information.


How difficult is it? Do you have much experience with enemas?

If Haiun and Brodmann were public companies traded on the NYSE and you were looking to invest in an acoutsic piano company (bad idea), Brodmann would come up short in terms of actual physical assets. However, if you're looking for a value-priced piano that has many artist-level performance qualities and you don't particularly care whether the fallboard name is going to have a long illustrious history or even survive the next five years, Hailun's edge for actually owning a piano manufacturing plant might not be relevant. It's up to you. Certainly the pianos are better than the sleight of hand marketing. You ought to know that.

You have to go back a few years and understand that acquiring Bosendorfer on the cheap was Plan A for Brodmann. Ever since Yamaha swooped in at the last minute to take the prize, Brodmann has been working with Plans B1, B2, B3, etc. They've worked really hard to cultimate some sort of Viennese heritage marketing image, but it's just not the same as having Bosie in the pocket.

The Chinese factory that has actually manufactured the Brodmann PE series, Parsons, is now the owner of Wilh. Steinberg Pianos in Germany. Production plans for European-built Brodmanns have shifted from Austria to Germany. Wilh. Steinberg had built some show pianos for Brodmann even before Parsons scooped it up. Put two and two together and the question simply becomes how much European content is in the European line and how much Chinese content, especially with Parsons easily able to mix, match, and control costs.

Why don't industry pros talk up Brodmann here? In terms of retailers, it's probably because Brodmann doesn't have a strong dealer network which they support. As you would know, it's easy for any dealer to get a Brodmann and sell it to you. Aother reason is that during the days when Brodmann threads became epics here, there was a lot of shading of the truth and a bit of outright lying from some Brodmann retailers. Compared to that stuff, it's better to have nothing.

If you want to get information from the horse's mouth, you could contact member JoBroMan who appeared here for a day in 2009 with a fire extinguisher and retired after two posts. That's Colin Taylor. I doubt it he's standing by waiting for a PW pm, so go with colintaylor@btconnect.com

Maybe you could encourage him to post again here. Factual posts from those who really know the score are good for a company's image, and the PE series pianos are pretty darn good -- don't you think?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1689627 - 06/03/11 12:04 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: turandot]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1030
Loc: west coast island, canada
Originally Posted By: turandot
How difficult is it? Do you have much experience with enemas?

Thankfully I haven't needed that procedure. cry smile

Thanks for your response and suggestions turandot.
It appears that none of the dealers on board here wish to offer their knowledge or lack of in regards to the "Artist Series". Usually someone is eager to give a pitch on a new product development. Perhaps going to the source, as you've recommended, would be more fruitful.

Yes, I am a Brodmann Piano owner, the PE187, so I take interest in what they are doing as a company. I've been very happy with my piano - arrived last February/2010. I didn't make an announcement here on PW. I thought it would be good to give it awhile to go through the break in period before posting about my experiences with this very fine instrument. I shall make an upcoming posting in this regard soon.

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#1689677 - 06/03/11 01:47 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: Dara]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7191
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Dara
Originally Posted By: turandot
How difficult is it? Do you have much experience with enemas?

Thankfully I haven't needed that procedure. cry smile

Thanks for your response and suggestions turandot.
It appears that none of the dealers on board here wish to offer their knowledge or lack of in regards to the "Artist Series". Usually someone is eager to give a pitch on a new product development. Perhaps going to the source, as you've recommended, would be more fruitful.

Yes, I am a Brodmann Piano owner, the PE187, so I take interest in what they are doing as a company. I've been very happy with my piano - arrived last February/2010. I didn't make an announcement here on PW. I thought it would be good to give it awhile to go through the break in period before posting about my experiences with this very fine instrument. I shall make an upcoming posting in this regard soon.


In the enema reference, I was referring to administering one, not being on the receiving end. grin

I know a guy through the net who worked for Brodmann , but he left a whie back, and even though I'm nosy, I wouldn't ask him anyway.

However, you're an owner. That gives you more standing than you might think. Your interest is logical, as is your decision to go through the break-in period before recommending that everyone buy one.

When you think about it, precious few manufacturing or distribution people post here at all. I think they generally come in only when the usual level of noise becomes alarming. Such a case would be Colin Taylor's brief appearance in '09.

Retailers? You know the game as well as I do. These European Brodmanns have been in the offing for a long time, but retailers can't make money off product launch announcements. They won't resort to the usual hype until they have them on the sales floor. At that point you may need your umbrella, and not an enema.

As you probably know, your PE 187 is the spitting image of a more famous model from a more famous manufacturer. I'll be interested in reading your thread about your ownership experience whenever you feel ready since first blush does not always hold up over time.

_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1689990 - 06/03/11 04:01 PM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
mikf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Texas
I played a Brodmann that I was told was built in Germany, but I dont remember the 'artist' series name being used. It had a pyramid mahogany finish and was a nice piano but quite a bit more expensive than the Chinese built. Obviously the finish was part of that, but not the whole difference. It had a mellow tone, more like an Estonia to me. I really was not certain that I liked it better than the Chinese built model which I thought sounded great for the money. I would describe the Chinese built as having a bit brighter tone. I also was given a price for one in a very stylish special finish they said was to be built in Vienna. But the price was really high. I think that one of the downsides of Brodmann is this multiple manufacturing facility approach made me a bit unsure of what I was actually getting. Became a moot point anyway when I fell in love with a Shigeru, which was lower price than the Vienna built Brodmann. I still think the Shigeru is a superb instrument and my tuner was drooling over it, but I suppose they are all great pianos.

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#1690060 - 06/03/11 06:21 PM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: mikf]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7191
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: mikf
I played a Brodmann that I was told was built in Germany, but I dont remember the 'artist' series name being used. It had a pyramid mahogany finish and was a nice piano but quite a bit more expensive than the Chinese built. Obviously the finish was part of that, but not the whole difference. It had a mellow tone, more like an Estonia to me. I really was not certain that I liked it better than the Chinese built model which I thought sounded great for the money. I would describe the Chinese built as having a bit brighter tone. I also was given a price for one in a very stylish special finish they said was to be built in Vienna. But the price was really high. I think that one of the downsides of Brodmann is this multiple manufacturing facility approach made me a bit unsure of what I was actually getting. Became a moot point anyway when I fell in love with a Shigeru, which was lower price than the Vienna built Brodmann. I still think the Shigeru is a superb instrument and my tuner was drooling over it, but I suppose they are all great pianos.


Total agreement from this quarter, in particular your statement about the downside of not being sure what you're really getting. You certainly knew what you were getting with that Shigeru.

I thik you're right on the series name too. As far back as 2008, Brodmann was referring to Specail Edition and Vienna Edition to describe its intended 'European' pianos. Those names are still archived (buried) in its website. Of course Vienna Edition would be an odd choice of name at this point. Emphasis seemed to be on casework back then as well as now. Internals? Who knows?

Dara,

Here's a fun thread to enhance your bedtime reading. Note the reference to "the make to watch". grin

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/173603/1.html

_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1690308 - 06/04/11 08:56 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
It seems from the Brodmann website that the Artist Series are using the same frames as the Professional Edition but they have a Renner action and a Bolduc soundboard. OK a Renner action is higher quality than a chinese built Langer action but my Brodmann has quite a fast and responsive action anyway. It is fully regulated at least once a year and tweaked in between times by my tech. It has a Strunz board, is Bolduc better than Strunz? Who knows.

OK, now to the point I'm trying to make - Brodmann entered the marked as claiming to make exceptionally high quality pianos and selling them at entry level price. What they have achieved in practice, is selling a very good product for a very good price. Perhaps not exceptionally high quality, but definitely good.

I fear they may have cooked the goose already though, because if there PE pianos were so good, are people going to pay a premium for what is essentially a very similar, if not the same instrument? Would you not just make the jump to a higher quality brand?

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#1690331 - 06/04/11 10:03 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7191
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: joe80
It seems from the Brodmann website that the Artist Series are using the same frames as the Professional Edition but they have a Renner action and a Bolduc soundboard. OK a Renner action is higher quality than a chinese built Langer action but my Brodmann has quite a fast and responsive action anyway. It is fully regulated at least once a year and tweaked in between times by my tech. It has a Strunz board, is Bolduc better than Strunz? Who knows.

OK, now to the point I'm trying to make - Brodmann entered the marked as claiming to make exceptionally high quality pianos and selling them at entry level price. What they have achieved in practice, is selling a very good product for a very good price. Perhaps not exceptionally high quality, but definitely good.

I fear they may have cooked the goose already though, because if there PE pianos were so good, are people going to pay a premium for what is essentially a very similar, if not the same instrument? Would you not just make the jump to a higher quality brand?


I don't know if they've cooked their goose. They must be having these artist series built in very small quantities as trial balloons. I would think that most of their retailers (certainly the ones I can think of) offer higher more established brands than Brodmann and would be very cautious about taking on Brodmann Artist Series at their intended prices.

One thing that does occur though with upgrades of this sort is that the company in effect de-values its own core product. Brodmann worked pretty hard early on to sell the Langer as a 'European' successor to Schwander. In offering Renner in a piano with a huge price premium to their bread and butter PE line, they are in effect de-valuing their own Chinese Langer. Same is true with Strunz vs. Bolduc. Now Strunz boards are appearing in a whole lot of Chinese pianos that aren't branded Brodmann. I've heard some idle chatter that Strunz itself may be manufacturing in China. True or not true, Strunz has name value. It's most often an added-cost option on Chinese pianos. Brodmann's upgrade on upgrade pushes the Strunz PE value down. By the way, what's the difference between a professional and an artist? laugh

I guess we shouldn't forget that China itself is the prize. There are so many brands and models there now and the market is so huge. Chinese are shrewd judges of value, but piano knowledge and experience is still in its infancy. I guess you have to find some way to gain and edge and selling Euro content and prestige seems to be a common approach.

It would be a good time to hear from Chris Venables. Chris has the Brodmann distribution for England and Wales and he's always good for a reality sandwich.

Are you out there Chris? smile
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1690339 - 06/04/11 10:22 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
Do you have any idea of the prices of the Artist Series? Incidentally I won't be upgrading. My piano is a workhorse and I can get out of it most of what I need to. It's going to be hammered into the ground anyway - not that I'll neglect to service it but thats what happens with pianists pianos. If I want to buy an 'artist' level grand I'll save up and save up and get something special. Or I'll get a new bathroom and kitchen fitted instead.

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#1690341 - 06/04/11 10:25 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
- and actually yeah I did think they'd devalue the Professional Edition.

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#1690344 - 06/04/11 10:32 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7191
Loc: torrance, CA
I was wondering if your level of use dictated annual regulation on if that Langer went out pretty easily. I guess you answered that.

I can't even upgrade my shower curtain, much less a bathroom, but if the money were there, it wouldn't go to a piano upgrade or a bathroom. I'd just go to Spain more often.

I don't know the exact prices. I sent a PM to Chris Venables. Maybe he'll bite.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1690349 - 06/04/11 10:49 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: turandot]
RAY930 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Loc: Europe
Small quantities maybe, but regular production and steady(and incresing)demand as far as I know. Try to order a concert grand 275 now and you have to wait until end of year.

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#1691539 - 06/06/11 07:02 PM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: RAY930]
mikf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Texas
You have a point about people jumping to higher rated brands as the price goes up. Exactly what I did.
Its difficut to quote exact price comparison because finishes etc influence it but suffice to say that the Brodmann made in Vienna was moving well into the Shigeru Price range. Brodmann's are great pianos and a Vienna built Brodmann may well be recognised in the future as a prestige instrument, but they are not there yet.

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#1692359 - 06/08/11 06:07 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: mikf]
ChrisVenables Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: Hampshire, England
Brodmann certainly have introduced more new lines and models than most 'boutique' piano manufacturers and I don't blame them for trying. A young company needs to be both proactive and reactive and if a product spec has to be changed, the product renamed or replaced to make it more competitive then it's logical to do just that.

Bearing in mind the above, the first batch of the Artist Series had the case parts and frame assembled in their Chinese factory, the stringing, action, keyboard, dampers are fitted in the Wilhm Steinberg factory in Eisenberg, Germany. For uniformity, all toning is done by just one dedicated technician. (Ex Steinway tech). Hammers are either Renner or Abel, strings Roslau, soundboard Bolduc, pinblock 5 ply maple by Bolduc, action Renner, keys Kluge and damper felt La roux. The designs of the 187, 212 and 228 are the same as the PE series, which look very like S-way A, B and C models (!) the concert 275, Brodmann say, has similarities to S-way, Yamaha and Kawai concert models. (!). Brodmann are planning an upright 132 model too. Frame colour is gold rather than light copper and there is more detail around the frame holes than on the PE series. Inside of rim is birds eye maple. Main rim is of 3mm maple laminations.

Listing the European MRP won't be much help to most people as 'street prices' are what matter and until the pianos are on the dealer's floor 'street prices' will not be determined. However, Brodmann MRP in Euros are:(PE MRP in brackets) 187 Eu29990 (18500) 212 Eu35990 (23990), 228 Eu39990 (37990) and Concert E_75000 inc tax. If the Artist Series' street price will be discounted at the same level rate as the PE series then it should be a highly attractive addition to the piano market.
.

So, to answer the question if introducing the Artist Series have Brodmann shot themselves in the foot and simply devalued the Langer action and PE series? Definitely not. Yamaha refined some of their C series grands to create the C3XA, S6, CF6 and SCF6 series without any compromise to the status of their original C series models. Brodmann are doing likewise. In my opinion both companies launched the new product too soon (we are still waiting for dates for Yamaha CX, and CF lines months after the launch) Maybe the manufacturers make an initial batch, get feedback from around the world before going into full blown production and distribution?


Edited by ChrisVenables (06/08/11 04:57 PM)
Edit Reason: ever tries posting using a blackberry?
_________________________
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Stocking new Yamaha, Petrof and Venables & Son

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#1692437 - 06/08/11 09:57 AM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: ChrisVenables]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7191
Loc: torrance, CA
Hey Chris,

Great stuff (as always)! Thanks a bunch.

William
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1692495 - 06/08/11 12:02 PM Re: Brodmann Artist Series [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1193
Thanks Chris, that answers my question! I'm interested to try one of these pianos.

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