One bit of advice, maybe it slow it down a little? I guess it's personal preference but it is marked Adagio.

Andras Schiff takes it even faster, I think, with two beats per measure forming the Adagio.

A very expressive performance. If you are to play this piece again today, what tempo would you take?

I'd love to hear you play this again on your M&H!

I agree a bit slower is better. But I still enjoyed it

Thanks Chris - I wasn't aware of that.

For those of you who have never heard Schiff's wonderful lecture on the "Moonlight" here's a link. It is well worth a listen. He deals specifically with the first movement staring at 1:00 through 14:14. His tempo is even faster than mine. I don't know if I'm completely sold on Schiff's approach to the pedal, however.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW_Dv_GNQAo

I put the idea to test because I don't think Beethoven's piano had the same sustain power as of modern pianos. I made a wedge and inserted it in the pedal to lift the dampers off the strings by about 80-90% from full pedal. The sound died down after 7-8 seconds with the dampers off this much.

So I recorded this same piece with the wedge in the pedal.
http://www.box.net/shared/imhn47y0k54x4rx71mtu

LisztAddict,
That's VERY interesting. To my ear, it gives the impression of moonlight shimmering and reflecting off of water. It totally works. Do you think, then, that Beethoven was pushing the artistic envelope with this instruction ("without dampers")? Thanks for executing this experiment!

--Andy

Ah-so!

And yet, carey, all has not been revealed! Who was the author of that fine reponse? Was it you?

The plot thickens...

So Carey, it would appear that you have come up with a strong challenge to the theory of Andras Schiff. I wonder what he would do if you informed him of this? He seems to be very convinced that Beethoven's instructions should be obeyed. Therefore, if what you are saying is correct and he has misunderstood the "sordino" instructions, he should abandon his interpretation immediately. Perhaps it is meant to be like your "Grandmother" would play it after all...

I just can't see how one can play with delicacy and at the same time all blurry with pedal the way Schiff does.

And I enjoyed your wonderful playing of the Ravel !! Hope the exams are going well. I look forward to hearing your next recording of the "Jeux d'eau."

All shall be revealed.........

Hi, does anyone have any view on how to interpret the performance direction that precedes the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata: "Si deve suonave tutto questo pezzo delicatissimamento e senza sordino." How do you interpret the senza sordino (without mutes) direction?

I originally thought that the direction was to play with the sustain pedal through the piece (which you obviously wouldn't do on a modern piano, given the sustaining power is much greater than Beethoven's piano, and holding the sustain pedal throughout would create enormous dissonance).

My teacher (an international concert pianist, so I'm very inclined to back his view) has a different view - he reckons the direction refers to the use of the "una corda" pedal (senza sordino), and that you should aim to produce a pp sound without the use of the una corda pedal. His reasoning is that, in the upper registers of the piano, Beethoven's piano only had two strings per note, whereas a modern piano has three strings. Using the una corda pedal would result in two of the three strings being struck on a modern piano, but one of two strings on Beethoven's piano, a much larger reduction in sound, and a substantial alteration in tone.

At the end of the day, I don't think it'll make too much difference to my interpretation. I'll definitely use the sustain pedal, pedalling on changes in harmony. And I'll avoid that una corda pedal, but not religiously.

Does anyone have another view?

Cheers
Tom

Response:

"There are actually two sets instructions - which translate literally from the Italian as: "The whole piece is to be played very delicately and without mute", and "Always very quiet and without mute".

So what is this "mute" that we are instructed to play without? There is a lot of twaddle talked about it in books on interpretation, in programme notes, in instruction manuals, in pompous musical dictionaries, and in other places ... wink.gif

Is it the una corda, as your teacher argues?

Or is it the dampers? That is the conventional interpretation. As to how how exactly to do it right - the argument continues to rage. This is what I used to think, and I faffed about with various amounts of pedal to get the "right" amount of sustain. But I changed my mind just a few days ago when, prompted by your question, I did some proper research into the instruments and conventions of the classical period.

Actually it is neither.

The Mute was an additional pedal common on Fortepianos. It was a piece of leather or felt covered wood that, when activated by a pedal or knee lever, was placed against the bridge and created a quieter and muted tone. The distinction is quite clear. This device is the "Sordino" or Mute. The regular dampers, controlled by the modern RH pedal are the "Sordini".

So Beethoven was instructing the performer to play quietly and delicately, but without making use of the muting device - presumably because he did not want the particular tone quality that it produced.

Beethoven's written instruction unambiguously states sordino and not sordinii. Unfortunately the instruction is misquoted in many places as "Senza Sordini" and then the misquotation is copied by people that cannot be bothered to check with the original score. Also there are famous and respected Beethoven interpreters (Taub, Rosen) who have written whole books on the sonatas and believe the instruction is for the "Loud" pedal. What is worse some editions, even some "Urtexts", have incorrect footnotes that mislead the performer. For example even the generally excellent Henle-Verlag gives the inaccurate translation: "This whole piece must be played very delicately and with Pedal"

It was actually so easy to find out the truth that I am amazed at the 200 years of confusion and muddled thinking on this point. (And a bit ashamed of going along with it for my entire piano-playing career). But it is a good lesson. Trust what Beethoven actually wrote. Not what anyone else says about it. Even so called "Urtexts".

There is a third instruction that appears right at the start - Andante Sostenuto. A sustained leisurely pace. You might want to interpret the Sostenuto as an indication to use some pedal, but I think it is more of a warning not to speed up.

So, in summary, the phrase "senza sordino" is irrelevant to a modern piano, because it does not have a Sordino and actually tells us nothing about how to use either the una corda or the sustain pedal of the modern instrument. You could, however, argue that if Beethoven did not want the muted tone of the "Sordino" he probably did not want the Una Corda either. On the other hand he does not expressly forbid it. On that point I guess we'll never know.

So for the performer, what you do with the two modern pedals in Op.27/2 (i) is up to you and has to be based on a combination of: your idea of what Beethoven wanted to express; your knowledge of what was implicitly expected by the conventions of Beethoven's time (without needing to be spelled out); your understanding of the differences between Fortepianos and modern pianos; and a dollop of personal taste."

I'm not sure whence this originates, but there is quite a bit of misinformation here which I don't have the time at the moment to address in detail, but will at some point.