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So....my thoughts on this subject are that there are a few (or many) posters that are familiar (popular) and those who are new or infrequent visitors (like me). There are also those caught between the ABF and this forum (like me). I am 53 and had no musical training until about 9 years ago. I'm still somewhat intimidated by this forum - advanced enough to be interested but insecure enough in my abilities to feel able to provide good advice. I have sometimes (can't remember what or when......so don't ask) contributed to a thread and never was (felt) acknowledged.....maybe we musicians are far too sensitive???

I remember once there was a discussion about whether or not the pianists' corner was actually the "classical" pianists' corner because there is a "non-classical" pianists' forum. It was being suggested at the time by one or two members that anything not classical shouldn't be brought up here because there is another forum for that. I wouldn't start a thread about something specificaly not classical here but there have been times when a general concept or idea is being discussed that can apply to all music and I've been leery of joining in the discussion because the examples I would be citing from my personal experience are not classical.

I don't wanna make this beat up pianists' corner day or anything I just figured that since there was some venting already going on about feeling like you don't fit in I would just throw that experience out there. I'm not sure the people involved in that discussion are even here anymore.

SAnnM -

I can appreciate how some participants in these forums are, as you say, "advanced enough to be interested but insecure enough in your abilities to feel able to provide good advice." It doesn't help that when you offer a comment, suggestion or opinion you receive little or no acknowledgment from other participants in a thread. One might argue that folks who feel ignored are being too sensitive (musician or not), but the lack of acknowledgment certainly doesn't encourage further contributions, nor does it serve to build the PW community.

So - I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that when a member starts a thread, he/she should make an effort (whenever possible) to continue to participate in the thread - and, in doing so, take on the role of "host" by acknowledging or responding to other folks who jump into the discussion.

Just a thought.

I don't think that's going out on any limb. I think it should be a given.

And when a thread-starter doesn't do that, pretty soon I abandon any great sense of consideration for him/her on that thread. If he's not doing what you said, I figure he has just abandoned it, and it's just the rest of us.

In which case it should become our collective responsibility to acknowledge the posts of others who may elect to participate - rather than ignoring them. PW should be as much about "listening" as being "heard."

Well said (I agree!). I generally try to help do that, and I know that others do also.

For the same reason, I also often will reply to a thread if I see that nobody else has yet, as long as it's a reasonable post. Likewise for a posted recording that has been online for a while and hasn't gotten any replies.

I always notice when you - and others - make an effort to do this. It is appreciated.

My $0.02:

I just realized why I have a tendency to feel like my posts are on everyone's "ignore" list. In normal (live) conversation, if you say something it is usually acknowledged by the person listening. Then you know you've been heard. On a forum this does not happen. Because my posts usually don't get responded to, I think what I said doesn't matter, is irrelevant, stupid, etc. On the flip side, it would become very tedious on a forum to get the same kind of recognition normal conversation has so I'm not suggesting this should happen here.

One thing I have noticed is that people don't always _really_ read the OP. I'm thinking about some of the ones that often end with "sorry for the long post". In those long posts people have taken the time to set up the question/s they have. In the responses sometimes reveal that the responder didn't take the time to address the _specific_ concern in the post and instead answer with something related to the concern. Here'san example of one of my posts. Notice how many responses do not specifically address my questions (2 of them did). I think I might have gotten better responses had I just asked the questions without all the detail.

(...goes off thinking this is another stupid post...)

Shouldn't you guys be practicing?!

You're killing your fingers typing this much!

Boy, do I relate to all of that!

I like to think I’m as good at communicating as the next person, but there are things that come up predictably both when talking to people in-person and in e-mailing.

Specifically, I’ve been aware for a long time that no matter how carefully you choose your words, (1.) in conversation -- sometimes people will respond to what they think you said or to what they want to think you said, rather than to what you actually did say, and (2.) in writing -- the longer and more complex your message, the less likely you will get all your points responded to (and, in fact, the more likely it becomes that you won’t even get any response at all!).

Of course, in conversation you can always just repeat your issue or your question until you get it addressed by the person you’re talking to. In e-mail ... sometimes I just give up.

For example, I have my doctor’s e-mail address and communicate with him occasionally this way. In general, I prefer it even to a phone call -- because phone calls might be inconvenient for one party or the other, whereas e-mail is always written -- and read -- at both parties’ convenience.

I’ve learned -- with my doctor and with others -- that no matter how clear and concise I think I’m being, much (or most) of my message will be ignored. I really make an effort now, with the doctor at least, to limit any given message to one single point -- and I don’t even bother at all unless it’s something urgent, or can be answered with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

Arghh: At the risk of becoming even more unpopular than it seems I may be becoming ....I think the reason you didn't get more direct replies on that thread about the double-thirds etude is that if we had replied directly, it would have been mainly to say that you probably shouldn't be working on it at all. Nothing really personal toward you, it's just that (I think) very, very few people are up to the level of where it's worthwhile to spend significant time on it. To me, the no-doubt clue was that you started out by saying you had done badly with another very difficult Chopin etude (which I hadn't been aware of, since I wasn't here yet, but I took your word for it), and so you were going to try this other one -- which, if anything, is probably even harder; I think it's much harder.

Sometimes we do say directly that someone shouldn't even be working on a piece, but not often. We try to be gentler. So, what happens is that people either just stay away because of not wanting to say anything, or they say it very indirectly (as I did in my first reply on there -- that was my way of trying to tell you that maybe you didn't realize what you were getting into), or go off on tangents (which was the main thing that happened).

That seems kinda rude, as I don't believe it's for 'us' to decide, based on the info 'we' can know about people's abilities on a message board, what they should/shouldn't be working on or what's a 'worthwhile' use of their piano time.

I think that's especially important to say -- to be supportive! -- given the consensus earlier in this thread that this forum is filled with 'ambitious amateurs'. I don't think 'we' can know that 'very, very few people' are up to the level of any particular piece in the standard repertoire.

And when somebody can ask detailed and intelligent questions about technique, practice, execution -- and report on their progress to-date -- as Arghhh did IMHO do in that 'double thirds' thread, it just wouldn't occur to me to say ... or even to think! ... that they 'shouldn't be working on it at all.'

Sometimes the most helpful and even 'supportive' thing is to help people know what is or isn't worthwhile or advisable to do.

Are you sure you took into account what he had said about his experience with the other Chopin etude?

Anyway, we may just have very different ideas about the double-thirds etude, and/or about what kinds of things are or aren't advisable for someone to work on. I stand strongly by what I said -- both as a principle and as the explanation for why that thread didn't get the kinds of replies he had hoped for, the latter admittedly being a guess about what was in other people's minds.

BTW, glad you re-thought the "ignore" thing.

P.S., to Arghhh: I'm realizing that there was probably another factor involved besides what I said, which I think is related:

Because of how very-hard the etude is, very few people have played it -- and so very few people would have been in a good position to answer your question. (As for why they didn't reply, I think it's what I said before.)

Well, Mark, I still haven't read most of your posts to this thread (that is, back when I first said I put you on 'Ignore').

But yeah, I was tempted to toggle that post into view ... so I gave in. And then did the same for this most recent one.

I did take into account what Arghhh said about the previous etude s/he worked on, yeah, but ... it seemed like apples-to-oranges because the techniques in those two etudes are so different.

And I do think we would have different ideas about the 'double-thirds' etude ... probably a lot of other rep, too. I've worked on both the etudes Arghhh mentioned (among others), though, and really can relate to knowing I'll probably never get to the speed or quality of any professional ... but not letting that stop me ... and still in the end feeling like I'm getting a lot out of the experience.

BTW, when you say you 'stand strongly' by what you said ... I relate to that too, and I respect it. I've got strong opinions, and I like it when others do as well ... but personally, I'm try to be cautious to make clear that my opinions are just mine and that I'm not speaking for anybody else. (I guess that's why your own frequent use of 'we' has come off as unwarranted to me.)

Thanks for the nice reply.

And about this part:


Good point. And indeed I thought about that, both at the time of that thread and during this discussion. But IMO, here's how it is: I start out with the knowledge (maybe it would be better to say "belief") that the double-3rd's etude is extremely, extremely hard and that it's a very poor expenditure of time and effort (not to mention physical health) for all but a very few pianists. And when I see the person saying what Arghhh said about that C major etude .....even though that etude is a very different kind of challenge, to me that's more than enough to tell me that this isn't one of those very few people for whom it makes sense to work seriously on the double 3rd's etude.

I did think carefully about it before doing that first post on that thread. Quickly, because it didn't take much ....but carefully.


Fair enough. And I agree "strongly" (that word again) that it's fine for anyone to work on anything -- as long as they appreciate fully what they're doing, including that maybe it's not an advisable thing. I've sometimes worked on things that I knew were 'inadvisable' from some standpoints, but did it anyway because I just really, really wanted to play the pieces, or at least to try. It didn't serve my "progress" well, but it was what I wanted to do.

Remember, I didn't tell him (or her -- as per how you put it, I'm not sure we know) ....I didn't tell him not to work on it. I just wanted to make sure he fully realized what kind of piece he was plunging into. It seemed to me that he didn't.

And as for the discussion about it on this thread, I'm just trying to help him understand why he didn't get replies that were more direct. I'm talking about what I think other people were thinking. If I'm right, I'm helping answer his wonderment. If I'm wrong, then I'm just wrong, but I'm doing my honest best to answer his wonderment, since he raised it. Would you rather I had ignored it? And y'know, after all, maybe what I'm saying is right.

Hi Arghh -

Your double thirds etude thread was posted a year ago. How far did you get with the piece??? In retrospect, was it really too difficult for you (as Mark has suggested) or did you eventually learn the notes and get it up to a reasonable speed? Or - did you work on it for awhile and decide to put it aside - with the intent of coming back to it at some point in the future? I've done that with SO MANY pieces myself. For example, I've been working on the Butterfly Etude off and on for 50 years. This year I finally got it !!

You mentioned that one reason you picked that etude was due to your injured left hand. Certainly hope that has healed by now.

Also - while you may not have received the specific answers you were seeking in the thread (I agree that many folks often jump into a discussion without reading the original post) it is noteworthy that the thread generated more than 70 posts - and actually was quite interesting to read. In fact, I was a bit surprised by the number of folks who had apparently played (or at least worked on) the etude themselves, given its difficulty.

Sorry, Mark, but I don't agree with this. I think Arghhh is a good enough pianist (I remember her mentioning auditioning for grad schools) to give this etude an honest attempt. Double thirds is a tricky technique. It gives some people like me conniptions but other people can just rattle them off. I think the main reason why she didn't get very many replies is that there are very few people who are good enough at this etude to give good advice!

Fair enough -- although it's hard for me to see why you would think so in view of some of what has been pointed out, including (as Carey noted) her saying that one reason for working on the piece was because of having hurt her left arm! (You wanna hurt her right arm too?)

BTW: In a later post, I did note that extra factor that you mentioned. Anyway, we're mainly both guessing what other people were thinking, so who knows.

Main thing: Apologies to Arghhh for my mistake about gender!!!

That's kind, Mark, but why do you feel the need to apologize? There are a handful of folks here who I've had good exchanges with for years - and I still don't have a clue about their age or gender.

The gender issue aside - it sure would be helpful if more forum members would take the time to provide even the most rudimentary information about themselves in their user profiles.

Actually, I sort of guessed. I figured females are more likely to use a kitten as a display picture. Anyway, regarding the issue at hand - IMO, Op. 25 No. 6 is more about working out the brain than the hand. It actually fits well under the fingers but playing it at speed is another issue. Arghhh mentioned that she was working through it carefully and with attention to staying relaxed and efficiency of motion, so I don't think she would be at particular risk of injuring herself with it. Op. 10 No. 1 is actually more dangerous injury-wise.