Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner How technically difficult is Estampes: Pagodes by Debussy.

P.S. OK, let's see.....if this were Groundhog Day and I had a chance for a do-over, here's a nicer way that I might have said what I did. It would have taken longer but it would have been a lot better:

JD, I'm very surprised that you're asking something like this. You've probably seen that when people ask such questions, many of us wonder why they're doing it, because we don't understand why they don't think they can find out just by trying the piece -- especially if it's an advanced player such as you. Plus, different people find different things hard, and so you won't necessarily benefit from what other people might say, and you can even be misled -- especially when you're an advanced player who has the ability to see for himself whatever might be relevant for him.

If you think this is wrong, maybe you could explain how you feel you could benefit from answers to such a question, and why you think you couldn't find out best just by trying the piece? Then maybe we could learn something about this. Or, as Okiikahuna suggested, maybe you didn't mean the thread exactly as you worded it, and were just looking for a discussion of people's experiences with the piece?

But if you did mean it exactly as you put it, I think the main help we can give you is to say that you're selling yourself short by thinking you can't answer it on your own. I think you do have this ability, and you needn't doubt it.

Okay, I did learn something here: how to respond gracefully and without defensiveness to criticism, without conceding the point you want to make, a trait I have often seen in Mark C's posts here. Although I still feel the original post could have been taken as an opportunity for an interesting discussion.

So, moving on to more relevant topics, how long will it take me to learn the first three pages of this piece?







Okay okay, everybody, settle down. Back away from those keyboards, I was just kidding.

K.

Quote from Abraham Lincoln, when asked how long a person's legs should be:
"Long enough to reach the ground."

, that reminds me of Psalm 147, sung at Evensong the 5th Sunday after Easter:

He hath no pleasure in the strength of an horse : neither delighteth he in any man's legs.

Always adds a light touch to the service.

You mean because of "an horse"?

I guess you mean the unintended 'double entendre.'

But to me the "an" is even funnier.

Serendipitously, at today's lesson, my piano teacher just suggested that I look into Estampes as my next big project. I've loved this series of pieces for a long time, though I never really expected to try playing them. So this is very exciting to me. Unfortunately, I will probably have to tackle these pieces on my own because I am moving (again) and will have to say goodbye to this (really awesome) teacher -- Without her help and encouragement, I would not have persevered on tackling the anime movement of Ravel's Sonatine. So, something I do wonder is: Is pagodes a good place to start my "independent project"? Of course, I can find out for myself as I work through it/them, but it'd be reassuring to have a group to share my excitement and trepidation with.

I didn't realize there was anime in the Sonatine; I suppose that's very appropriate for Megumi Noda.

Seriously though, sorry to hear about leaving the great teacher behind. It sounds like you've learned a tremendous amount, including concrete things you can take with you. Good luck with the move.

-Jason

If you looked at the score, the last movement is marked anime!! . Though I'm sure you knew that..

Just the other day, I was browsing a menu of scores on my iPad; when my eyes rested on the title "anime," I, too, had a moment of: "Huh. I don't remember getting any anime music lately; I wonder what is this?" before realizing it's francais, not nihongo.



Thanks! It's been a fun year. Expect to see another one of those "how to find the right teacher" thread from me in the Fall. (Apologies in advance.)

Back to the original topic, I tried reading through all three pieces today. At first blush, anyway, Pagodes seems like the more manageable one of the three. There aren't too many uncomfortable stretches, the speed isn't insanely fast as in Jardins, and the score doesn't involve the use of triple staves as in Granades (I just have a mental block on that representation for some reason). And I need to work on my pedaling.

Ha ha, thanks for all the replies. In the end, I am working on it. An all Debussy recital, and I was not going to play one of the preludes, and for some reason the etudes were off the table. I just went with it. I love dealing with the voicing in this piece.

I do have the Tendancy to deal with moments of self doubt, where I overly question something. Though after my summer, a lot of that has truly faded.

Sounds like good things happened.
It sure seemed like you deserved to trust your own ability to know it better than you were trusting it.

I know this is an old thread but noticed there was actually no real discussion regarding the difficulty of the piece on this thread so wanted to actually contribute to this so in the case, someone googles 'difficulty of pagodes debussy' and comes here to this prestigious piano forum, they dont look critically at us....

I am practicing Pagodes currently, and although I consider myself a somewhat perennial 'beginner' (by no means technically grounded but years of dabbling experience) it was not as daunting as I thought it was going to be.
My definition of difficulty is by my grading something by how hard it is to bring it to a 'playable' level. To friends. Parents.
Lot of octaves work but they get familiar real quick due to the motif like structure of the octaves. And the last part of the piece with the 'glissando' right hand is actually very do-able for me. It is the pentatonic scale of all black keys like chopsticks so it really isnt bad except for the blip at the point where you go from Bb, Ab, Gb, Db, Ab...then you need to bring your 5th finger down to Bb to continue the glissando downward, no matter how much I practice I cant seem to blend away the pause at that point ; the other parts of the glissando are fine.

The main thing is like in all debussy, pedaling. Since in this piece you have more than one voice and to pedal is the complexity in the piece. parts where the score says there are ties but you physically cant hold it you need to do some sort of skilled pedalling as for now I do basic pedalling .
Also you got to see the picture the piece is trying to paint, and try to feel out the gongs and bells and chimes whatever the gamelan? orchestra notion is and try to play to that.
It is difficult in its expression. but technically to play thorugh it is relatively not difficult at all.


Pagodes is a beautiful and moving piece. It initially kind of starts off quirkily w its stereotypical 'oriental ' sounding motif but it blends into a more lush and deeper harmonious theme and it really chokes me up emotionally, especially the last part, as if Debussy was trying to say this is to go on eternally.
also the contrast of emotion between left hand (sadder) and right hand (constantly trying to be uplifting) is very sobering and conjures up images of two persons in a partnership trying to pull each other through ..just my 2 cents.