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My guitar teacher has had me working on So what now for about a month. I'm not a great fan of Miles. These chords sound vile, at least they do when I play them. I did check out the relevant chapter in Mark Levine's jazz piano book, and the same chords sound marginally less vile when I play them on piano.

More than that I'm struggling with the concept of modal jazz. I know what modes are. Modal jazz is - jazz without tune? jazz without rhythm? jazz without chord changes? jazz that modulates up a semitone and then back down again? It just seems to function in a universe different from the one I understand.

Am I alone?

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Modal jazz, when trying to define it, is a tune based on a single "mode". In the case of "So What", the Dorian mode (first the D dorian scale, then Eb). This is different than, say, bebop, where the chord progression moves you through different tonalities (dorian, mixolydian, etc.) and much more often than not - different keys.

In a more general sense, modal jazz can be said to be based on a single "sound" or "mood". Other than lacking a chord progression, it can be accomplished through a bass ostinato, a repeated phrase/lick, and many other things.

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Maybe it will help to listen to Modal music in other context.. a lot of folk music are based on modes, a lot of spanish flamenco music are based on phyrigian modes.Remember, The major/minor scale are modes too

Like scotpgot says, every mode has it's own mood/aesthetics. I think you just have to let go of your pre-conception of music (which may be more based on tonality), and spend some time listening to modal music. I think you'll start to appreciate for what it is once you do that.


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In his jazz piano book Mark Levine does not realy tell what is going on in modal playing.

As the ionian and the aeolian are modes also dorian is a possibility to have different cadencial behavior between his different degrees.
We are not anymore speaking about authentic and plagal movement like in ionian and aeolian, but just about cadencial chords and the tonic chord. In modal playing tonic chord is allways only the chord on the I degree. There are no subs like in ionian or aeolian.
Cadencial chords in the dorian mode are those who contain the typical dorian scale degree which is the dorian sixth.
These cadential chords you'll find on the bVIIMA7 and the II-7 degree in dorian.
The VI degree which of course allso contains the dorian sixth as the root, does not work, because it's chord structure is a diminished triad which tends to resolve towards the relativ ionian, a behavior which is not desired when playing modal.

So it is not just a ONE chord playing on "So What". You allways think in cadences. in dorian cadences.

By the way, the typical "So What" chord in the theme has pentatonic origen. It would be a good thing to understand his structure and where it comes from to form more of this kind of chords!

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Originally Posted by Cudo
In his jazz piano book Mark Levine does not realy tell what is going on in modal playing.

As the ionian and the aeolian are modes also dorian is a possibility to have different cadencial behavior between his different degrees.
We are not anymore speaking about authentic and plagal movement like in ionian and aeolian, but just about cadencial chords and the tonic chord. In modal playing tonic chord is allways only the chord on the I degree. There are no subs like in ionian or aeolian.
Cadencial chords in the dorian mode are those who contain the typical dorian scale degree which is the dorian sixth.
These cadential chords you'll find on the bVIIMA7 and the II-7 degree in dorian.
The VI degree which of course allso contains the dorian sixth as the root, does not work, because it's chord structure is a diminished triad which tends to resolve towards the relativ ionian, a behavior which is not desired when playing modal.

So it is not just a ONE chord playing on "So What". You allways think in cadences. in dorian cadences.

By the way, the typical "So What" chord in the theme has pentatonic origen. It would be a good thing to understand his structure and where it comes from to form more of this kind of chords!


Cudo, while what you are saying is true, I am not sure if it's that helpful to someone who is relatively new improvising to introduce more theory. It's probably better for the OP to understand this aurally, rather then technically. Once he does, he can better appreciate what you are trying to explain.

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Originally Posted by scotpgot

In a more general sense, modal jazz can be said to be based on a single "sound" or "mood". Other than lacking a chord progression, it can be accomplished through a bass ostinato, a repeated phrase/lick, and many other things.


I think this is probably the crucial thing. I just never feel like it's getting anywhere. It starts, continues, then eventually stops.

Quote

Modal jazz, when trying to define it, is a tune based on a single "mode". In the case of "So What", the Dorian mode (first the D dorian scale, then Eb). This is different than, say, bebop, where the chord progression moves you through different tonalities (dorian, mixolydian, etc.) and much more often than not - different keys.


Moving through different keys (and back again) I get in modal and bebop. The tonalities and modes business, I just don't get. It always seems to me, if I'm in C, then I'm in C and that's all that matters.

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Originally Posted by etcetra
Maybe it will help to listen to Modal music in other context.. a lot of folk music are based on modes, a lot of spanish flamenco music are based on phyrigian modes.Remember, The major/minor scale are modes too

Like scotpgot says, every mode has it's own mood/aesthetics. I think you just have to let go of your pre-conception of music (which may be more based on tonality), and spend some time listening to modal music. I think you'll start to appreciate for what it is once you do that.



I appreciate what you're saying etc. But as you say, major is also a mode. Old MacDonald had a Farm is in a mode (ionian), so everything (scale-based) is 'modal'.

But it seems to me in 'modal jazz' the word 'modal' means something else. Thinking that 'modal jazz' is 'modal' is just a distraction.

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When yo say D dorian scale, Do you mean a dorian scale that begins with D, or a dorian scale with a key signature of D maj.?

Last edited by Studio Joe; 06/10/11 06:49 AM.

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Originally Posted by Cudo
In his jazz piano book Mark Levine does not realy tell what is going on in modal playing.


Thankyou for your reply cudo. It's helpful to know Mark doesn't necessarily have the last word. As to the rest of your reply, I'm afraid etc is right. You are using words like 'authentic', 'cadencial' and 'plagal' in technical ways that are unfamiliar to me. It would simply take too long to unpick it all. Thankyou for trying! smile

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The difference between Old MacDonald (or Twinkle Twinkle Little Star) using a single scale in the melody, and it actually being a "modal" song, is that the chords accompanying the melody change (i.e. have a progression). If you were to "blow"/improvise over the changes to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, you'd start on I, move to IV, etc... (actually I suppose it'd be better to reharmonize that IV to a ii7. What was I saying? Oh yeah...)

In most popular pieces, there is a chord progression. Think of that word literally, if it helps.

THIS:
Quote
I think this is probably the crucial thing. I just never feel like it's getting anywhere. It starts, continues, then eventually stops.
is correct, generally. It is then up to the improviser to provide a shape to the solo outside any chord changes would provide. Then at THAT point, you begin to add what Cudo was talking about. Cadences, deceptive cadences, chord substitutions, and all that good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Studio Joe
When yo say D dorian scale, Do you mean a dorian scale that begins with D, or a dorian scale with a key signature of D maj.?


I think in this case he/she meant, a dorian scale that begins with D (i.e. no sharps or flats).

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Originally Posted by scotpgot
The difference between Old MacDonald (or Twinkle Twinkle Little Star) using a single scale in the melody, and it actually being a "modal" song, is that the chords accompanying the melody change (i.e. have a progression). If you were to "blow"/improvise over the changes to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, you'd start on I, move to IV, etc... (actually I suppose it'd be better to reharmonize that IV to a ii7. What was I saying? Oh yeah...)

In most popular pieces, there is a chord progression. Think of that word literally, if it helps.

THIS:
Quote
I think this is probably the crucial thing. I just never feel like it's getting anywhere. It starts, continues, then eventually stops.
is correct, generally. It is then up to the improviser to provide a shape to the solo outside any chord changes would provide. Then at THAT point, you begin to add what Cudo was talking about. Cadences, deceptive cadences, chord substitutions, and all that good stuff.


At this point, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe my mind's just not in the right place for it just now.

Certainly I'm familiar that with most tunes, there is a chord progression. The chords tend to go in a certain way, or at least in one of several ways that our ears get used to.

Take that chord progression away, and you get modal jazz, right? If I'm wrong, just tell me.

If you take the chord progression away, then I don't see the point of talking about chord substitution. Because why not just play any chord? A cadence is a chord progression, so that's out too. As for a deceptive cadence, why should I trust it anyway? smile

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Ten,

The beauty of tunes like So What is that in fact, you have a lot of options.
Miles came up with the concept of the "so what" voicing (played by Bill). It's stack fourths with a 3rd on top. You can let your LH play any 3 notes separated by the interval of a 4th, and instead of thinking of it as a chord, think of it as playing those notes within the scale.

Assuming you play So What in the common key, it starts with D dorian, so you can play any 4ths on the white keys. What becomes clear after messing with it a bit, is that all those 7 chords that you will play work, in some way.
So instead of outlying a chord, like D minor, you're really saying these things:
* The root is D, and I'm going to let you know. Because either I have a bass player falling on D on most first beats, or every so often, I'm going to go low on the piano and play D - A, which clearly indicates we are in D. Every 8 measures, it might be a good idea to play that voicing D-A in the bass.
* Sure I'm in D, but I'm going to mess with my chords by playing any open voicing using only white key. So it's going to be very open that way. And there is no mistaking it for any thing else, you are playing D dorian.

An easy way to solo on this is to simply play D dorian scale, essentially C major. Even better would be a D minor pentatonic. Pentatonic scales work really great.

Modal tunes are often recognized because they have whacked out chords that you may not be used to. Naima is one, Nardis is another. Even though they have nice chord changes, it is played within scales, rather than chords. Look for tunes by Herbie Hancock, Miles, Coltrane or Wayne shorter. Coltrane took My favorite things and made it a modal tune.

I can think of easier tunes to start soloing on ...



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Quote
Take that chord progression away, and you get modal jazz, right? If I'm wrong, just tell me.


That's right. If you think of non-modal jazz as having motion. Think of modal jazz as resting on a single tonality and staying there.

Quote
If you take the chord progression away, then I don't see the point of talking about chord substitution. Because why not just play any chord? A cadence is a chord progression, so that's out too. As for a deceptive cadence, why should I trust it anyway?


This is where we are talking about much more advanced playing. And all that (substitutions, etc.) is hinted at by the soloist (though the rhythm section will sometimes follow along through a chord substitution, or, especially, a sequence that goes through different keys).

You can think of it like this: the D dorian bebop scale and the G Mixolydian scale have the same notes - D E F F#/Gb G A B C D E F F#/Gb G (and so on). So, while soloing, the player can either stress the chord tones of the D dorian (D, F, A, C) OR G Mixolydian (G B D F) and slightly change the tonality of what they are playing without changing any of the notes. (This is a basic example.)

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The easiest way to look at modal music is to look at new age.

That's how I tell my wife that anyone can play piano. She's never played anything her whole life. I said:

* play 1 white note in the left hand and hold it as long as you can.
* play any white note in the right hand.

That's modal music right there. Although she's not quite sure what mode she's playing.

But essentially, it's modal for you.
She's very impressed by the result by the way.


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Originally Posted by knotty
Ten,

The beauty of tunes like So What is that in fact, you have a lot of options.
Miles came up with the concept of the "so what" voicing (played by Bill). It's stack fourths with a 3rd on top. You can let your LH play any 3 notes separated by the interval of a 4th, and instead of thinking of it as a chord, think of it as playing those notes within the scale.

Assuming you play So What in the common key, it starts with D dorian, so you can play any 4ths on the white keys. What becomes clear after messing with it a bit, is that all those 7 chords that you will play work, in some way.
So instead of outlying a chord, like D minor, you're really saying these things:
* The root is D, and I'm going to let you know. Because either I have a bass player falling on D on most first beats, or every so often, I'm going to go low on the piano and play D - A, which clearly indicates we are in D. Every 8 measures, it might be a good idea to play that voicing D-A in the bass.
* Sure I'm in D, but I'm going to mess with my chords by playing any open voicing using only white key. So it's going to be very open that way. And there is no mistaking it for any thing else, you are playing D dorian.

An easy way to solo on this is to simply play D dorian scale, essentially C major. Even better would be a D minor pentatonic. Pentatonic scales work really great.

Modal tunes are often recognized because they have whacked out chords that you may not be used to. Naima is one, Nardis is another. Even though they have nice chord changes, it is played within scales, rather than chords. Look for tunes by Herbie Hancock, Miles, Coltrane or Wayne shorter. Coltrane took My favorite things and made it a modal tune.

I can think of easier tunes to start soloing on ...




Excellent explanation Knotty thumb .


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Originally Posted by KlinkKlonk


Thanks, KlinkKlonk, but this is precisely what I don't need. I understand modes. The trouble with jazz is it takes perfectly good words and makes them mean something different. Reminds me of Kaballah, and that used to drive me up the wall. I don't mind words meaning different things, but the trouble is, people who are initiated into the secret club forget that those who aren't, don't get it.

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Thanks guys for the responses. I have spent a couple of hours with Miles and Bill and I think I can see where I went wrong. I was sitting on chords that sounded awful, but the point is you need to pass through them quickly or just a quick stab.

I can't say any of this music is my favourite, but I've got some listening I'll try. Sometimes I like things better once I understand them.

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see, you CAN get something out of listening to records wink

Last edited by knotty; 06/10/11 04:45 PM.
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