Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs

Hmmm...Google brings up other Silver publications. These links just give the names or starts of the works, not the actual text, although the last two can be reached through JSTOR:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL20237831M/Notes_on_the_duodecimal_division_of_the_octave.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3614300

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2316896

"An unequal temperament is described in which the fifths and fourths of the tuning chain have the same beat rate."

http://gfax.ch/literature/Equal_Beating_Chromatic_Scale--Silver.pdf

Jake, I do not have access to the links you posted. Me too, I've looked for other material without success. And only recently I got to know about A. L. Leigh Silver's work. Where is he from?

a.c.

England. He was a physician and the son of an organist, one note says. See the editor's note at the bottom of http://www.jstor.org/pss/2316896 .

How did you run across his work?

I want to find a copy of his "Notes on the Duodecimal Division of the Octave." I can access the other two articles on JSTOR, as can anyone affiliated with a university with a library that subscribes. I can't post the articles, however, or links to them. And right now, it's the end of the academic term, here, so I'm stretched a bit too thin to even look them up.

(Highly recommended--as you probably know, in the past few years, most of the major journals have scanned their old editions and put them online. JSTOR is a set of servers that collects them all and makes them available so that each journal\university department doesn't have to have its own server. The J. of the American Acoustical Society, the Proceedings of the Royal Society, and many other journals are available, and can be accessed from home.)

(But Alfredo, I must say that my impression is that your tunings, from what I've been able to learn from your posts, seem to be partly derived from your sense of chromatics and from the Italian tradition of tuning for singers. I love the sound of CHase, and partly understand the theory behind it, but I would like to learn more about the tradition of the tuners you studied with.)

Hi Jake,

I'm going to PM you and, for what I can, tell you about the tuners I've met and studied with.

Don't you think it would be nice to compare Silver's EBS with other equal beating UTs? One is Bill's, do you know about others?

http://gfax.ch/literature/Equal_Beating_Chromatic_Scale--Silver.pdf

Regards, a.c.

Hello.

Three days ago I found a video I made last September with my pocket camera.

I hope you too will like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfq0CJ1gOg

Regards to All, a.c.

Very nice sound, Alfredo. Thanks for sharing the video.

Glen

I hope you'll find the time to do more videos, Alfredo. Those that David did for his well temperament are wonderful. It would be nice to have a similar collection of performances, filmed close-up and collected over time. Do you ever go to England...?

Good to see you back on the forum. I'm looking forward to hearing more examples of the CHas when you get the time to record them.

Hello to All.

Thank you, Glen, and Jake for the input you gave me. Could you link David's well temperament for me?

I've found a professional video, one hour of very nice music. The piano is an F308, the artist is Mariangela Vacatello. The event is part of a festival that takes place every year in Milano and Torino.

Chas Tuning at MITO - September 2010 - F308:
http://www.mitosettembremusica.it/multimedia/video/2010-09-09-milano-9608.html

Your comments are welcome.

Regards, a.c.

Chas Tuning - 2010 - "Rina Sala Gallo" International Piano Competition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfq0CJ1gOg

Chas Tuning mp3 - 2011 - Live recording on Fazioli 278):
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

Chas Tuning mp3 - 2009 - Amateur recording - Steinway S (5' 1" - 155 cm):
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

I’ll have to listen to your new recording later. Running around a bit today. For the moment, here’s one video using David’s temperament:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zxNrQuxfNY&feature=related

There are 508 of his videos here, most of them of pianos tuned to his well temperament:

http://www.youtube.com/user/latribe#p/u

And here’s the thread in which this variation of a well temperament was or is being discussed here on the forum:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1590814/Some%20sweet%20video's:%20an%20older%20p.html#Post1590814

Sounds like a very nice equal temperament tuning. How does it differ from a nice equal temperament tuning that is not "Chas"?

Kees

Thank you, Kees, for your feedback. I'm glad you can now address to Chas.

You write:

"Sounds like a very nice equal temperament tuning. How does it differ from a nice equal temperament tuning that is not "Chas"?"

If I can ask, which equal temperament are you referring to? If you asked someone for the current definition of equal temperament, the answer may be that it is "a variant of 12th root of two". Notice, a "variant" that is based - logically speaking - on a lame model and an approximate iH calculation.

Today we can see that a "variant" of that kind stays to Chas model's geometry like a roundish figure stays to a circle.

In these terms, your comment and relative question would be:

"Looks like a very nice roundish figure. How does it differ from a nice roundish figure that is not a circle?"

Jake, thanks for those links.

Regards, a.c.

Thank you, Bill, for representing your 12ths/15ths equal beating tuning in explicit form.

Thread: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths?
Bill Bremmer RPT - July 31, 2011 04:29 PM

"I don't tune perfectly pure 12ths, I make them equal beating with double octaves. They sound very nearly pure but technically, they are not. However, when tuning the high treble from F6 to the top, I often tune pure double octave-fifths."...

Yes. In fact, how you tune F6 (as a double octave-fifths) is the direct consequence of how you have tempered F3, A#3 and the other notes in your temperament section. And more, the whole tuning will depend on how you have tempered the first 25 notes, i.e the number of notes you need for balancing 12ths and 15ths. You now understand why your 12ths and 15ths may invert.

You wrote: ..."The equal beating double octave and octave-fifths (the PTG Journal's preferred nomenclature) provide for excellent "beat masking" (as Bernhard Stopper calls it). I also think of beat masking as beat cancellation or beat suppression. When that exact compromise is achieved, (take the example of the F3-F5 double octave), playing F3-A#3-F4 and F5 at the same time will yield an uncanny stillness even though none of the intervals are actually beatless."...

I'm glad, you sound ready for sharing and (perhaps) supporting new conjectures and modern ET models. Thanks for specifing also:

..."This is true for ET, Quasi ET and any mild Well Temperament or mild Meantone or mild Modified Meantone. It makes the whole Midrange and well into the Bass and Treble sound very clean and in tune with itself, regardless of temperament."...

Indeed, equal beating double octave and octave-fifths may work also as a tool; to a certain extent it can "adjust" or "make up for" some inconsintences in the temperament...if you use it as a tool. If/When you gain that as THE scale ratio, namely as the natural and coherent* outcome of your settled tuning (in my experience), you get the top, you get right to the Reason.

..."I have done this for at least 25 years."...

Well done.

*: in terms of EB constants and intervals beat-curves

Best regards, a.c.
.

Hello.

Sometime ago I received some unexpected words from Professor Ernest G. McClain. He is an elderly researcher who has deepened on historical and religious issues concerning music and numbers...you too may find of some interest reading about his very relevant works:

http://www.ernestmcclain.net/

Yesterday I realized that Professor McClain had published our mailing, so I can share his comments on Chas model with you:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bibal/message/23949


In these days I'm working on a conference, within a symposium on "Dreams", trying to emphasize the relationship between geometry and our universal "harmonic" affinities. And, of course, trying to explain with graphs and numbers that today - in music - we can depart from the theoretical and practical "compromise" and consciously share and enjoy an Optimum. I will appreciate your thoughts and comments.

Regards, a.c.

CHAS Tuning mp3 - 2011 - Live recording on Fazioli 278
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

CHAS Temperament - 2010 - "Rina Sala Gallo" Piano International Competiton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfq0CJ1gOg

CHAS THEORY - Research report by G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009):
https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...CULAR%20HARMONIC%20SYSTEM%20-%20CHA.html

Chas Preparatory Tuning (December 15, 2009):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1383831/1.html

There are many roads to En-dor.

From: #1737002 - August 20, 2011 10:01 AM Re: ET vs 2 different well temperaments video [Re: Steve W]

Hi TunerFish, in turn...welcome on board!

Do you tune aurally?

When you say "Standard Equal Temperament", I do not know what you mean.

Please tell me/us: how do you tune "ET" 4ths, 5ths, octaves, 12ths and 15ths?

And, how do you expand your X favorite tuning outside the temperament area?

When you state: "...interpretation of the music must by necessity change when played on different tunings. Pianists will instinctively alter their interpretation based on what they are hearing. I do an entire lecture/recital on this very subject. For each tuning a pianist will quite subconsciously change tempo, phrasing and pedaling. If you don't, the music won't sound musical and it won't make sense. If, for example, you were to play something that is in a very lush key in a Well Temperament, you would be likely to play it more slowly so that you can enjoy the subtle nuances of the tuning. However, because there is no key coloration in ET and all these nuances are lost, if you played it that slowly in ET it would be deathly boring. So, the tendency is to play faster and look for other ways to make the music make musical sense. This, IMHO, is why most concert pianists for the last several decades tend to play everything too fast."...

I really think (with all due respect) you must have taken a tangent. And I'm not discussing your musical sense, what is lush and what is morbid, how long you like suffering on a wolfish interval, nor how long you like "staying" on a chord that pleases you. And I'm not discussing your "color" soil nor your struggle with boredom.

I'm just saying that, within your own sad and anachronistic war against ET, you ought to show respect for the many pianists that have mastered timing and philological interpretation for years and years.

You may also be able to realize how long a perfect tuning "form" (read ET geometry) may last on a piano (before it turns into a sort of WT), like on any tense/deformable structure which is exposed to external forces; more or less, it will last as long as these rings:

http://www.zoomin.tv/site/video.cfm...Etna-dal-cratere-anelli-di-fumo-perfetti

So, all in all, I'd say: are you happy with your WT tunings? Good for you, in a way you are lucky.

Do you want to speculate on ET tuning? Then, you could do your home work and learn more about modern ET's geometry.

BTW, what is your name?

Regards, a.c.

Hi.

From the thread: EBVT: key color vs bad tuning technique [Re: Steve W]
#1770312 - October 14, 2011 10:58 AM

Ed Foote RPT wrote:..."Bach's writings, if considered teaching aids, certainly could be showing how to effectively use the harmonic resources found in the normal tunings of his day, (and I don't think ET was one of them). The WTC pieces do this,(compare the treatment of the third in, say, the preludes of C and C#). When we consider Chopin's music, we can see how he often is using melodic fifths over a highly tempered background harmony. This is where the textural effect of WT's can be heard clearly, and interestingly enough, pianists playing Chopin on a temperament with 18 cent thirds seem to find it clearer. I think removing the haze of tempering that hangs over the equal temperament allows the true harmonic colors to be displayed.
I equate ET with the pollution that covered the Sistene Chapel ceiling. The true colors of the artist were greatly reduced by its effect, but people had become so used to it that when the first panels were cleaned, there were many that argued we should keep it all covered up, like it had been all their lives! I submit that the brash colors Michaelangelo used are far more beautiful than the soot-covered, dim, outlines of his work that time had left us with. I think the same thing about Beethoven's use of key color, and from my own experience, the piano world is gradually loosening its grip on the security of the familiar in favor of the challenge and beauty of the original."

- . - . - .-

Ed, you are certainly allowed to your own opinions (that I respect) but for me it is a shame when, moving from questionable premises, you get to more questionable conclusions. And it seems (to me) that you have not been able to acknowledge a couple of things about tunings.

You mention "harmonic resources". What is there behind these nice-sounding words, what do you mean? I can enjoy both Bach's preludes in C and C#, but both keys have to sound "in tune". And you should know that, in Bach's days - before any "color" claim could arise - theorists, composers and tuners had just one problem, a centuries-old problem. That problem was related to primes 2, 3 and 5, the numbers that within a 12-semitones span will define our octave, fifths and thirds. In those days "color" wasn't a problem at all. Actually, from your point of view, they had so much…color, many unequal temperaments that could not solve THE problem: How to make all keys and all intervals sound in tune?

You say that ET tuning, in Bach's days, was not "normal". Please, would you be able to tell what is today's "normal" ET tuning? When 12 root of two was introduced, the approach to the scale went different: from a 12-semitones span, where you would temper intervals by fixing single intervals ratios, they developed the idea of a geometric set, a set of N notes that could be ordered in a geometric progression and that could lead to a sound-whole.

Today, it is not by copying 12 or 16 notes from the temperament section that a tuner can achieve the ET geometry. And if you realize that we were left with the "pure-octaves" axiom, if you think about the tuning of fourths, fifths, octaves, 12ths, 15ths, if you acknowledge how these intervals are coped with, somehow artistically and/or mysteriously managed, how can you think in terms of "normal" ET tuning. Is it modern ETD's "variants" you are referring to?

You wrote: …"When we consider Chopin's music, we can see how he often is using melodic fifths over a highly tempered background harmony. This is where the textural effect of WT's can be heard clearly, and interestingly enough, pianists playing Chopin on a temperament with 18 cent thirds seem to find it clearer."…

How about 20 cent thirds? Wouldn't pianists find "textural effect" even clearer?

…"I think removing the haze of tempering that hangs over the equal temperament allows the true harmonic colors to be displayed."…

Here we are again onto the "color" conjecture, plus "harmonic", plus "true". I know that you refer "color" to your "pain and pleasure" experience, and how some keys should sound better than others. But doesn't "harmonic" (from harmonia, “joint, union, agreement, concord of sounds”) recall the USA motto "E pluribus unum", "Out of many, one"? And if "harmonic" refers to "one", if it refers to a "whole", which UT or WT, out of dozens, displays "true harmonic alternation of pain and pleasure"?

…"I equate ET with the pollution that covered the Sistene Chapel ceiling. The true colors of the artist..."…

About ET, I understand your frustration. To me, it seems that you haven't grasped the theoretical goal, and most probably you have not been able to experience ET's effects in practice. How do you tune fourths, fifths, octaves, 12ths and 15ths? How do you switch the acrobatic expansion of 12 semitones to the tuning of a sound whole?

..."...the piano world is gradually loosening its grip on the security of the familiar in favor of the challenge and beauty of the original."

What you describe might happen, the "familiar" being what we witness every day, UTs and WTs whether we like it or not. But this does not mean that we should give up; in my experience, we can achieve a coherent sound whole and restore Aristoxene's idea, let me say THE original idea of a perfect, harmonious temperament.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Regards, a.c.

CHAS Tuning mp3 - 2011 - Live recording on Fazioli 278
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

CHAS Temperament - 2010 - "Rina Sala Gallo" Piano International Competiton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfq0CJ1gOg

CHAS THEORY - Research report by G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

Chas Preparatory Tuning (December 15, 2009):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1383831/1.html

Alfredo:

If you want to respond to a post it should be done in the Topic that the post was made in.

Hi Jeff,

I was able to read Steve's original post and thought that my reply to Ed (above) would have been off Topic.

.

Alfredo:

Hmmm, the problem is Ed (or anyone else) might not look for a reply to what he said in one Topic in another Topic. It might be best to make a short post in the first Topic saying that you have something to say in response in a second Topic.