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#1696025 - 06/15/11 11:41 AM How often do pros cheat?
Skorpius Offline
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Registered: 10/17/08
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Dropping notes, faking, etc.
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#1696032 - 06/15/11 11:57 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
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I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...

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#1696048 - 06/15/11 12:21 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: PaulaPiano34]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...

Yes.
The answer to his question is, "a lot."

But few consider it "cheating."

BTW: How about when we 'trade' notes between the hands -- like, playing a note with one hand that's "supposed to be" (or at least looks like it's supposed to be) played by the other? Is that part of what you're wondering?

These things aren't cheating.

But here's something that maybe is. ha

Mozart's Sonata in D major for 2 pianos has a part in the last movement where the players take turns playing a little passage that has a pretty tricky L.H. part. It's hard because of how the black notes lay out -- it's difficult or impossible to find a fingering that really works well. A few years ago I saw a famous duo play it with apparent ease. Since I knew them, I rapped a little bit with them afterwards, and asked how they did it. The answer: "We didn't." They split up the passage between them -- instead of each playing it in turn, they played together both times, one person playing just the R.H. part, and the other playing the L.H. part but using 2 hands for it. One of the players said they could have learned how to play it as written, "But why bother?" The other player had this 'look' and clearly wasn't too happy that the other one had confessed. smile

Was that cheating? I think yes. Was the whole thing hilarious? Yes.

(How did I not notice how they were playing it? I guess I don't always see too good.) ha
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#1696056 - 06/15/11 12:37 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Mark_C]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
Oops!!! I forgot to answer the question, thanks for that Mark. Anyway, I completely agree with you. Take for instance some fast, scalar Chopin (look in the preludes or ballades) that are notated like they're just for LH or RH alone but many pianists spread them out with both hands for ease and speed. It's not cheating. It's doing whatever you can to get the best sound out of the piano the best way it works best for you.


Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...

Yes.
The answer to his question is, "a lot."

But few consider it "cheating."

BTW: How about when we 'trade' notes between the hands -- like, playing a note with one hand that's "supposed to be" (or at least looks like it's supposed to be) played by the other? Is that part of what you're wondering?

These things aren't cheating.

But here's something that maybe is. ha

Mozart's Sonata in D major for 2 pianos has a part in the last movement where the players take turns playing a little passage that has a pretty tricky L.H. part. It's hard because of how the black notes lay out -- it's difficult or impossible to find a fingering that really works well. A few years ago I saw a famous duo play it with apparent ease. Since I knew them, I rapped a little bit with them afterwards, and asked how they did it. The answer: "We didn't." They split up the passage between them -- instead of each playing it in turn, they played together both times, one person playing just the R.H. part, and the other playing the L.H. part but using 2 hands for it. One of the players said they could have learned how to play it as written, "But why bother?" The other player had this 'look' and clearly wasn't too happy that the other one had confessed. smile

Was that cheating? I think yes. Was the whole thing hilarious? Yes.

(How did I not notice how they were playing it? I guess I don't always see too good.) ha

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#1696069 - 06/15/11 12:57 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
NeilOS Offline
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Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 599
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Skorpius
Dropping notes, faking, etc.


I would rather call it being human, not cheating. Horowitz, especially later in life, missed quite a bit. But even in the '40s he could be sloppy. (Listen to his live radio broadcast of the Tchaikovsky with Toscanini.) I heard him live twice in New York and the playing was electric, phenomenal even, but not really "clean."

Every artist has his/her moments of concentration lapse, including memory slips. I've heard Serkin stop in the first movement of Brahms 2nd concerto with Ormandy at Carnegie Hall. He got up, walked over to the podium and looked into the score. It happens more often then you might think and with the greats. Rubenstein wandered around in the G minor Ballad before getting back on track; Van Cliburn could miss (listen to his prize-winning performances in Moscow), and many others. Stuff happens, but I wager not from lack of trying of from being ill-prepared.
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#1696073 - 06/15/11 01:05 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Mark_C]
NeilOS Offline
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Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 599
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...

Yes.
The answer to his question is, "a lot."

But few consider it "cheating."

BTW: How about when we 'trade' notes between the hands -- like, playing a note with one hand that's "supposed to be" (or at least looks like it's supposed to be) played by the other? Is that part of what you're wondering?

These things aren't cheating.

But here's something that maybe is. ha

Mozart's Sonata in D major for 2 pianos has a part in the last movement where the players take turns playing a little passage that has a pretty tricky L.H. part. It's hard because of how the black notes lay out -- it's difficult or impossible to find a fingering that really works well. A few years ago I saw a famous duo play it with apparent ease. Since I knew them, I rapped a little bit with them afterwards, and asked how they did it. The answer: "We didn't." They split up the passage between them -- instead of each playing it in turn, they played together both times, one person playing just the R.H. part, and the other playing the L.H. part but using 2 hands for it. One of the players said they could have learned how to play it as written, "But why bother?" The other player had this 'look' and clearly wasn't too happy that the other one had confessed. smile

Was that cheating? I think yes. Was the whole thing hilarious? Yes.

(How did I not notice how they were playing it? I guess I don't always see too good.) ha


Well, my view is perhaps slightly different here. The score tells us what the music sounds like, not what it feels like in our hands. I once read an article by Tovey on the Hammerklavier, which he described as "craggy" and difficult and it should sound that way. Well, fine then. I say I'm going to find an easy way to make it sound craggy and difficult.


Edited by NeilOS (06/15/11 01:08 PM)
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#1696097 - 06/15/11 01:34 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: NeilOS]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: NeilOS
I would rather call it being human, not cheating. Horowitz, especially later in life, missed quite a bit. But even in the '40s he could be sloppy....
Every artist has his/her moments of concentration lapse, including memory slips....

Neil: It looks like you might have misunderstood the OP -- it's not about slips and misses, but intentional things.

Or else I misunderstood it! smile
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#1696105 - 06/15/11 01:46 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
Skorpius Offline
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Posts: 751
Yes I was referring to intentional changes of notes to make it easier.
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#1696112 - 06/15/11 02:02 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
Michael Glenn Williams Offline
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Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern California
Pros I know do it all the time and there is nothing wrong with it if done tastefully. As you know the greats also add quite a few notes as well.

There are a lot of "tricks" for the Mephisto you were practicing that have been passed on to me or I figured out if you want.

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#1696114 - 06/15/11 02:03 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Skorpius
Yes I was referring to intentional changes of notes to make it easier.

Yes.
Although I'd put it differently. Especially when it comes to someone like Horowitz, it wasn't for it to be easier, but more effective.

But maybe that's just quibbling about words. smile

In Scriabin's late sonatas, Horowitz made changes like this all over the place. And therefore so do I. smile
And in the 9th sonata, I saw a guy on youtube (someone not known) doing a neat "trade" of L.H. and R.H. in a particular passage, which made it possible to do a better job of the flow and dynamics, which I don't think I ever would have thought of. I immediately adopted it -- and thanked him for it on the video. smile
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#1696122 - 06/15/11 02:14 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
NeilOS Offline
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Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 599
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Skorpius
Yes I was referring to intentional changes of notes to make it easier.


Ah. Well, in that case here's what I think. Most of the composers who wrote great piano music were pianists themselves, great or otherwise. They wrote the types of things that fit their own hands. They even changed things, reportedly (especially Beethoven), in their own performances. Does that give us mere mortals leave to do the same? No. We play from the score, rearranging as necessary to make the score fit our own (very capable) hands, but not leaving out notes deliberately. (The Mozart duo sonata example, it seems to me, is permissible if all of the indicated notes were played, albeit redivided.)

Here's my exemption: Leaving out doublings in large chords as necessary for smallish hands (mine for example) or other temporary, unhealthy stretches would be permissible in order to avoid injury. Better to discretely omit something and be able to play another day. Luckily, this is almost never necessary for me since I learned how to move. However, wholesale abandonment of octave passages, for example, simply because they require work is not acceptable. I don't know of artists deliberately doing the latter, though I did hear a case of the disappearing LH octaves in the Liszt sonata by a high profile artist in New York. My assumption was that he experienced what I call a temporary loss of nerve or temporary insanity. (I'm quite sure he really can do the octaves.)

So, I guess the simple answer is that I don't think serious artists deliberately distort the music in order to make it easier to play.


Edited by NeilOS (06/15/11 02:30 PM)
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#1696131 - 06/15/11 02:22 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Michael Glenn Williams]
Skorpius Offline
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Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 751
Originally Posted By: Michael Glenn Williams
Pros I know do it all the time and there is nothing wrong with it if done tastefully. As you know the greats also add quite a few notes as well.

There are a lot of "tricks" for the Mephisto you were practicing that have been passed on to me or I figured out if you want.


I would love to know!! smile
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#1696137 - 06/15/11 02:25 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: NeilOS]
Skorpius Offline
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Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 751
Originally Posted By: NeilOS
Originally Posted By: Skorpius
Yes I was referring to intentional changes of notes to make it easier.


Ah. Well, in that case here's what I think. Most of the composers who wrote great piano music were pianists themselves, great or otherwise. They wrote the types of things that fit their own hands. They even changed things, reportedly (especially Beethoven), in their own performances. Does that give us mere mortals leave to do the same? No. We play from the score, rearranging as necessary to make the score fit our own (very capable) hands, but not leaving out notes deliberately. (The Mozart duo sonata example, it seems to me, is permissible if all of the indicated notes were played, albeit redivided.)

Here's my exemption: Leaving out doublings in large chords as necessary for smallish hands (mine for example) or other temporary, unhealthy stretches would be permissible in order to avoid injury. Better to discretely omit something and be able to play another day. However, wholesale abandonment of octave passages, for example, simply because they require work is not acceptable. I don't know of artists deliberately doing the latter, though I did hear a case of the disappearing LH octaves in the Liszt sonata by a high profile artist in New York. My assumption was that he experienced what I call a temporary loss of nerve or temporary insanity. (I'm quite sure he really can do the octaves.)

So, I guess the simple answer is that I don't think serious artists deliberately distort the music in order to make it easier to play.


Well I'm talking about within reason...If there's a passage that omitting a note or two will make it more do-able for a pianist and is unnoticeable by an audience, then what's the problem? To a reasonable extent, of course.
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#1696138 - 06/15/11 02:25 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: PaulaPiano34]
LaReginadellaNotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 390
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...

Do you know of any specific pieces where he did that? I remember Horowitz mentioning that he sometimes drops the thumbs in octave passages, but that he does it in such a way that the ear wouldn't perceive the dropped notes.

The attitude of Horowitz (and many other pianists) seems to be that if you can make a passage sound better by rearranging or possibly dropping some notes, then that is desirable. It's about maximum effect with minimum effort. Beethoven's philosophy appears to have been the reverse, as there are three-note passages in some of his sonatas where he notates the bottom two notes with the L.H. and the top one with the R.H. Those passages are ten times easier if you simply play the top two notes with the R.H.

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#1696144 - 06/15/11 02:38 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
NeilOS Offline
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Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 599
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...

Do you know of any specific pieces where he did that? I remember Horowitz mentioning that he sometimes drops the thumbs in octave passages, but that he does it in such a way that the ear wouldn't perceive the dropped notes.

The attitude of Horowitz (and many other pianists) seems to be that if you can make a passage sound better by rearranging or possibly dropping some notes, then that is desirable. It's about maximum effect with minimum effort. Beethoven's philosophy appears to have been the reverse, as there are three-note passages in some of his sonatas where he notates the bottom two notes with the L.H. and the top one with the R.H. Those passages are ten times easier if you simply play the top two notes with the R.H.


Re Beethoven: That's exactly right.

Re Horowitz: I'm having trouble imagining how deliberately playing an "octave" without the thumb would be easier. I've heard H. miss a lot of octaves, but not for wont of trying. Maybe H. was talking about putting more weight into the top note and the thumb occasionally not sounding?
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#1696146 - 06/15/11 02:40 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
NeilOS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 599
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Skorpius
Originally Posted By: NeilOS
Originally Posted By: Skorpius
Yes I was referring to intentional changes of notes to make it easier.


Ah. Well, in that case here's what I think. Most of the composers who wrote great piano music were pianists themselves, great or otherwise. They wrote the types of things that fit their own hands. They even changed things, reportedly (especially Beethoven), in their own performances. Does that give us mere mortals leave to do the same? No. We play from the score, rearranging as necessary to make the score fit our own (very capable) hands, but not leaving out notes deliberately. (The Mozart duo sonata example, it seems to me, is permissible if all of the indicated notes were played, albeit redivided.)

Here's my exemption: Leaving out doublings in large chords as necessary for smallish hands (mine for example) or other temporary, unhealthy stretches would be permissible in order to avoid injury. Better to discretely omit something and be able to play another day. However, wholesale abandonment of octave passages, for example, simply because they require work is not acceptable. I don't know of artists deliberately doing the latter, though I did hear a case of the disappearing LH octaves in the Liszt sonata by a high profile artist in New York. My assumption was that he experienced what I call a temporary loss of nerve or temporary insanity. (I'm quite sure he really can do the octaves.)

So, I guess the simple answer is that I don't think serious artists deliberately distort the music in order to make it easier to play.


Well I'm talking about within reason...If there's a passage that omitting a note or two will make it more do-able for a pianist and is unnoticeable by an audience, then what's the problem? To a reasonable extent, of course.


Exactly.
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#1696149 - 06/15/11 02:42 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
dolce sfogato Offline
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Registered: 03/29/10
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real ones just don't.
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#1696204 - 06/15/11 06:12 PM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: dolce sfogato]
sportsdude2060 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 133
Made me think of this video:



Yeah, he exaggerates for some of them, but others are actually a bit disturbing.

So the simple answer is "yes" -- at least for the vast majority.

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#1696251 - 06/16/11 12:05 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Pros cheat the notes all the time, but they never cheat the music.

(And I often think students do the opposite - they cheat the music for fear of cheating the notes.)
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#1696255 - 06/16/11 12:13 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Kreisler]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Pros cheat the notes all the time, but they never cheat the music.

(And I often think students do the opposite - they cheat the music for fear of cheating the notes.)

Perfect! thumb

I sometimes think the latter about posts that I see on our forums, most recently here.

What I suggested there would be called "cheating" by some.
To me, it's cheating the music if you screw up the flow and tempo in order to get all the notes as written. IMO it's a misunderstanding not just of the music, but also of what composers are doing.
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#1696261 - 06/16/11 12:30 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
panman Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/26/11
Posts: 19
The written score is the only way composers can communicate without recording equipment or a live performance. If what is written on the page is what the audience hears, what's the big deal?

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#1696274 - 06/16/11 04:06 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
bennevis Offline
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4420
I don't think it's cheating if you still play all the notes as notated, even if you redistribute them between your hands. Some would say that if you take that big leap at the beginning of Beethoven's Op.111 using two hands, you're cheating, because you can't miss (assuming of course that Beethoven wants it to be a hit-or-miss affair). In a live performance, of course we like to see pianists make things difficult for themselves.... grin.

Yet conversely, pianists who consider the above as 'cheating' still merrily avoid the octave glissandi in the finale of the Waldstein (by leaving out a few notes and playing them as scales, or playing them as single note glissandi), or the one in the first movement of Piano Concerto No.1, and think that's entirely OK. To my mind, that's more like 'cheating' because the difference is easily audible, whereas in Op.111 it isn't.

And in Chopin's 'Heroic' Polonaise Op.53, most (but not all) pianists give themselves a break from the LH octaves whenever the RH isn't playing by availing themselves of said hand. Is that cheating? No, just common sense, to avoid early onset RSI grin.

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#1696276 - 06/16/11 04:27 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Mark_C]
ando Online   content
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Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3344
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Pros cheat the notes all the time, but they never cheat the music.

(And I often think students do the opposite - they cheat the music for fear of cheating the notes.)

Perfect! thumb

I sometimes think the latter about posts that I see on our forums, most recently here.

What I suggested there would be called "cheating" by some.
To me, it's cheating the music if you screw up the flow and tempo in order to get all the notes as written. IMO it's a misunderstanding not just of the music, but also of what composers are doing.


Very well said Mark and Kreisler. I find that some ornaments and trills give me trouble so I will often leave them out or abbreviate them because they are decorative and not essential to a phrase. Trying to complete them would often murder the phrase so I'd rather serve a greater master and leave out a few notes. People notice disruptions to flow - hardly anybody notices if you leave a few tiny notes out of the score, as long as the flow is there.

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#1696285 - 06/16/11 06:03 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
RedKat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Belgium
Here is an example from Chopin Op.72.n.1.



If played as written, A# is hold with the 1 finger till the end of the bar and the passage is played using the lower fingering version. However, the upper fingering version suggests dropping A# and playing only the passage using also the 1st finger. Is this version could be considered as "cheating"? Or this is kind of simplified "student" version? What would you play?
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#1696327 - 06/16/11 09:04 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: RedKat]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: RedKat
Here is an example from Chopin Op.72.n.1.



If played as written, A# is hold with the 1 finger till the end of the bar and the passage is played using the lower fingering version. However, the upper fingering version suggests dropping A# and playing only the passage using also the 1st finger. Is this version could be considered as "cheating"? Or this is kind of simplified "student" version? What would you play?


The lower fingering was put there for people who have studied Chopin's Op. 10 No. 2 Etude. You should practice that etude so you can do the lower fingering. :P

Just kidding. In all honesty, I don't know yet. I do know that if you take the lower fingering, that opens the possibility of doing more with pedaling (like half pedaling or something like that) to clear the blur from all the chromatic notes. HOWEVER, I, not knowing this nocturne, am not sure if that's needed. If you take the upper fingering, then you just hold the pedal down exactly like it says.

In the end, I don't fully know. :P

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#1696334 - 06/16/11 09:27 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Orange Soda King]
square-39 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/11/08
Posts: 55
At a live recital, recently, I observed Garrick Ohlsson playing some of the left-hand parts of Chopin's op. 10, no. 12 etude with his right hand. Was that cheating?

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#1696356 - 06/16/11 10:30 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Originally Posted By: bennevis
.....Some would say that if you take that big leap at the beginning of Beethoven's Op.111 using two hands, you're cheating, because you can't miss....

IMO that's "cheating the music" because you almost certainly lose the desired musical effect. And yes indeed, part of it is visual, but much or most of it is more than just visual.

And really, there shouldn't be any issue about "missing" anyway. Just take whatever time is needed (which wouldn't be a whole lot anyway); that's a big part of the musical effect, and it's a big part of what we lose if we do it the 'easy' way. We want there to be some impression of effort, even something approaching struggle.

Notice that I didn't bother to put much "IMO" in there. That was on purpose. smile
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#1696360 - 06/16/11 10:37 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Skorpius]
pianojosh23 Offline
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Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 565
ALL the time, at the end of HR2, I mean just ask Richard Kastle smirk


Edited by pianojosh23 (06/16/11 10:37 AM)

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#1696367 - 06/16/11 10:49 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: square-39]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8699
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: square-39
At a live recital, recently, I observed Garrick Ohlsson playing some of the left-hand parts of Chopin's op. 10, no. 12 etude with his right hand. Was that cheating?

I would think so, wouldn't you? Especially from Garrick Ohlsson.

A friend of mine told me that when he saw Perhaia play the Chopin Op 25/8 in concert, he left out a lot of the 3rds, though admittedly it was hard to tell without seeing the keyboard. I asked my friend 'so what's the purpose of playing it in the first place?', to which he replied: 'because it's beautiful music'.

And he did have a point.
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#1696371 - 06/16/11 10:52 AM Re: How often do pros cheat? [Re: Orange Soda King]
chercherchopin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 550
Loc: Dystopia (but not Dystonia!)
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Originally Posted By: RedKat
Here is an example from Chopin Op.72.n.1.



If played as written, A# is hold with the 1 finger till the end of the bar and the passage is played using the lower fingering version. However, the upper fingering version suggests dropping A# and playing only the passage using also the 1st finger. Is this version could be considered as "cheating"? Or this is kind of simplified "student" version? What would you play?


The lower fingering was put there for people who have studied Chopin's Op. 10 No. 2 Etude. You should practice that etude so you can do the lower fingering. :P

Just kidding. In all honesty, I don't know yet. I do know that if you take the lower fingering, that opens the possibility of doing more with pedaling (like half pedaling or something like that) to clear the blur from all the chromatic notes. HOWEVER, I, not knowing this nocturne, am not sure if that's needed. If you take the upper fingering, then you just hold the pedal down exactly like it says.

In the end, I don't fully know. :P

Late to the party on account of the 'forum problems' again yesterday.

When I saw the title, I thought it'd be about adultery. frown

Seriously -- I don't think that the Chopin example there is relevant. Notice the 'divisi' there -- the A# there is in a different voice, and the duration of that note in that voice is a half beat because it needs to be.

Imagine if it were two human voices singing the respective parts. The A# is meant to last through the end of the measure, even if as a practical matter on piano it can't be physically held.

In my own mind I've always thought of this kind of duration as sort-of 'hypothetical' because it reflects an 'ideal' that maybe can't quite be performed exactly as written. I don't associate it much with Chopin -- I think he's pretty literal in indicating what he intends, and his notation is usually (in my experience) a pretty precise reflection of that.

But with other composers, I think it's far more common that note values will be found that can't, physically, be held for their complete lengths. I'm pretty sure examples could be found in Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Debussy, Fauré, etc. ... and I'd go so far as to say that 'hypothetical' durations might actually be a cue to the performer that pedal is required here -- even if there's no customary pedaling marks (because after all tnere's no other way of achieving the 'effect' of the notation).
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