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I'm trying to resolve my lower back pain that is related to my posture at the piano. It seems that much of my problem is related to my "forward head" posture, which is apparent in these photos:





You can see that even when I consciously work on my posture, I have a problem:



I've got some stretches and exercises to help with this, but one thing I can't figure out is this: If I hold my head in the right position, I can't see the keyboard.

Have any of you dealt with this issue?

Thanks,

Al

What works for me personally is to have the bench pushed all the way back and to sit at the front edge of the bench. This allows me to see the entire keyboard from a vantage point without having to crane my neck or push my head forward. My knees are never tucked in below the keyboard (as yours appear to be in the photos). They are typically slightly away from the keyboard. When I need to go close to the piano, it is my straight back that leans over at an angle rather than my head or neck. In fact, I feel as if most of the moving around when I play is done by my torso rather than my neck or head. In your photos, I find your position relative to the piano to be too close. Others might have other suggestions but this is what works for me. Also, I have heard of the Alexander Technique for musicians. It deals with posture and other matters concerning the body when playing an instrument. There are Alexander Technique therapists in major cities, I believe. I have not explored that but you might like to check this out:

http://www.ati-net.com/articles/debiadam.php

Best of luck! :-)

Alexander Technique is very sound. I did that many years ago and once you learn its principles and techniques, your entire body operates better. I think sitting on the right bench and in the right way is critically important. The piano encourages downward looking because of its layout and because of the height of the desk being typically lower than is ideal for posture - presumably because if the notation is too far away from the keys you will have trouble taking quick glances. I think the main thing is to get your back sorted out. I would recommend Alexander Technique. Your neck will follow from that. The picture of your working on your posture is a concern because it appears you are trying to hold yourself in a vertical position by using muscle power. The idea behind good posture is to learn how to find the body's balance points so you can achieve good alignment without constant effort. Muscles themselves are incapable of achieving good posture. Good posture is the result of good balance. Muscles merely provide the small compensatory movements to maintain it and allow larger movements to change position.

Here is a video I found that illustrates the position and distance from the piano that works for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ3f05ocH6Y&

Note how the pianist can see the keyboard very well without stretching the head or neck down.

There is a really long article I just found. long article on posture stuff It gives a good overview of various ideas that have been held. I was caught out by a couple of them.

I agree that you appear to be too close and that if you sit further back you can move the entire torso forward to look at keys (flexing at hips). Core strengthening by doing Pilates can help with this.

Something else that has helped me is to construct a music desk so that I look straight forward. the music desk on uprights and digitals encourages downward looking. I used cardboard and boxes, it's not pretty! but does the trick. Gradually you will find yourself looking at keyboard less because it is a less convenient distance, then your hands get better at playing without being watched. I have completely changed in the last few years so I hope you can too. Figure out your neutral vertical, well balanced position and return to regularly even if you do look down a bit.

It's possible you are dealing with a reading glasses issue as well. I have no experience with that but it could be a factor. There have been threads on glasses if you care to check.

Make sure you have some physical activity in your life (you look like you do). All sorts of physical activities help one maintain good core strength and posture from brisk walking, swimming, team sports... anything that isn't piano or typing! Posture awareness can then go from your physical activities to piano playing, and piano can incorporate the postural alertness of an athlete. Think whole body.

I hope you make some progress with this. Best of luck.

Before reading the other posts (which I have subsequently read) your first two pictures prompted thoughts which others have confirmed. I believe that you have the bench too close to the piano and that you sit too far back on the bench. Moving the bench further back and balancing yourself on the front edge of the bench gives much better control of touch and tone; it also enables you to reach the extremes of the keyboard without contorting the body.

I think that the chair in the first picture encourages bad - or at least uncomfortable - "piano posture" because the shaped seat encourages one to sit all the way back into it. Sitting all the way back into such a chair means that so much of your weight is supported by your thighs, making it much more difficult to lean forward to transfer back, shoulder and arm weight to the keyboard. It would be hard to sit on the front edge of a chair such as that.

Just my $.02

Regards,

Thanks guys. Some background: I started having low back pain while playing a few years ago, and went to using that chair with a backrest. My goal now is to eliminate the need for that.

On May 1 I crashed on my bike during a 100-mile ride. Two days later, I pulled a muscle in my back. When I thought I'd recovered, I practiced five hours in one day, and things got a lot worse.

So now I really want to get everything just right. I'll be moving the bench back some more. For the last week, I've done the following stretches twice per day:

Back Exercises (import from MobiList)
Cat Stretch
Neck Raise with Strap
Knee Raise
Hip Raise
Hamstring Stretch (Strap)
Press-up
Lumbar Rotation
Child's Pose
Paper Clip
Plank
Side Plank
Hamstring Stretch (Wall)
Pectoralis Doorway Stretch
Standing Leg Raise
Neck Stretch
Ingela Stretch

I've also found this book to be good:

http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Fr..._1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307979094&sr=8-1

Perhaps this is part of it. I can sit with what seems like perfect posture, and let my body relax, feeling all the different parts stacking on top of one another. But then, I play, and as soon as I'm not thinking about my posture, I notice that I'm all tensed up in different places in my back.

Also, since I don't get immediate feedback about what is right or wrong (it doesn't hurt until 30 minutes after playing), it's hard to experiment.

Any time we try a new technique/approach, it is all too easy, particularly if we have to concentrate on things other than the new approach, to slip back into the old technique.

So, I understand the developing tension. I guess it's a question of mental discipline during practice sessions where you concentrate as much on posture as you do on everything else involved. Sometimes a simple little mental "trick" such as : every time I turn the page/start a new line I'll think about my posture, how to maintain it correctly and how to keep relaxed at the same time. A change in habit is not something that comes easily, quickly or automatically until one has worked at it consciously or extensively, as you probably well know.

Regards,

Having a mirror on the side of your practice piano is also helpful when working on posture. My teacher recommended it and helped along by being a "total pain" about posture during lessons. Having a mirror served as a good reminder for me during practice, similar to what Bruce is suggesting (ie the mental trick). I am not very disciplined, so visual tricks tend to help me better.Visual tricks work better for some.

Should my goal be to be relaxed and have no tension? Or is it possible that if I am relaxed but in a bad position, I will get sore?

Thanks,

Al

I was discussing something similar with a friend this morning about playing Mozart. One needs to relax so that passage work is not affected by tension anywhere in the body. At the same time, however, there has to be weight and control so that tone is not feeble or thin. But if the relaxation is overdone or if it's realization is ill-conceived, there's no control of the tone and perhaps little control of flexibility.

There's such a fine line to be drawn between any individual's concept of being "relaxed" at the piano and having "no tension." The upper body parts must be properly supported, the spine should be straight and a certain amount of concentration (if not effort) may be required to maintain an upright position, but at the same time the idea of relaxation should not be to let everything "sag." Then the spine becomes curved, the weight of the back is not properly transferred to the arms/hands/keys and discomfort can set it.

I think it is quite possible that if your "relaxed" position is a slouch, or if the head is projected too far in front of the upper body, then fatigue or even soreness may set in.

Regards,

Besides the other good advice (especially, lose the office chair, and sit more forward on the bench but with the bench further from the piano), it seems to me that you're sitting too straight. The spine has four curves, and if you try to flatten them out too much, the vertebrae do not sit flat on each other, as they're the strongest, but rather on their edges. Tension and eventual back pain are the result.

Try sticking your butt out some, as you sit. Oversimplified solution to a problem that really takes quite a bit of study and some expert help, but it may give you a start to seeing how the spine can be more comfortable.

Lyricmudra.... gorgeous pics of your piano and piano room!

I would also recommend taking a look at either the video or book version of Thomas Mark's "What every pianist needs to know about the body" (I got both from a library). In it he described that "stacking up" for alignment that you mention, and then goes on to show how that works at the piano. What they focus on is people's misconception of how things in the body actually work and where the various parts are. One misconception is that people think sitting up straight includes the "soldier" pose - head up, chest out. In fact, this is not a relaxed position and is not recommended. While the video is easier to see what he is talking about, the book has exercises to help you find the correct position.

Thanks so much, crogersrx! :-)