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I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...
Yes. The answer to his question is, "a lot."
But few consider it "cheating."
BTW: How about when we 'trade' notes between the hands -- like, playing a note with one hand that's "supposed to be" (or at least looks like it's supposed to be) played by the other? Is that part of what you're wondering?
These things aren't cheating.
But here's something that maybe is.
Mozart's Sonata in D major for 2 pianos has a part in the last movement where the players take turns playing a little passage that has a pretty tricky L.H. part. It's hard because of how the black notes lay out -- it's difficult or impossible to find a fingering that really works well. A few years ago I saw a famous duo play it with apparent ease. Since I knew them, I rapped a little bit with them afterwards, and asked how they did it. The answer: "We didn't." They split up the passage between them -- instead of each playing it in turn, they played together both times, one person playing just the R.H. part, and the other playing the L.H. part but using 2 hands for it. One of the players said they could have learned how to play it as written, "But why bother?" The other player had this 'look' and clearly wasn't too happy that the other one had confessed.
Was that cheating? I think yes. Was the whole thing hilarious? Yes.
(How did I not notice how they were playing it? I guess I don't always see too good.)
Oops!!! I forgot to answer the question, thanks for that Mark. Anyway, I completely agree with you. Take for instance some fast, scalar Chopin (look in the preludes or ballades) that are notated like they're just for LH or RH alone but many pianists spread them out with both hands for ease and speed. It's not cheating. It's doing whatever you can to get the best sound out of the piano the best way it works best for you.
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by chobeethaninov
I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...
Yes. The answer to his question is, "a lot."
But few consider it "cheating."
BTW: How about when we 'trade' notes between the hands -- like, playing a note with one hand that's "supposed to be" (or at least looks like it's supposed to be) played by the other? Is that part of what you're wondering?
These things aren't cheating.
But here's something that maybe is.
Mozart's Sonata in D major for 2 pianos has a part in the last movement where the players take turns playing a little passage that has a pretty tricky L.H. part. It's hard because of how the black notes lay out -- it's difficult or impossible to find a fingering that really works well. A few years ago I saw a famous duo play it with apparent ease. Since I knew them, I rapped a little bit with them afterwards, and asked how they did it. The answer: "We didn't." They split up the passage between them -- instead of each playing it in turn, they played together both times, one person playing just the R.H. part, and the other playing the L.H. part but using 2 hands for it. One of the players said they could have learned how to play it as written, "But why bother?" The other player had this 'look' and clearly wasn't too happy that the other one had confessed.
Was that cheating? I think yes. Was the whole thing hilarious? Yes.
(How did I not notice how they were playing it? I guess I don't always see too good.)
I would rather call it being human, not cheating. Horowitz, especially later in life, missed quite a bit. But even in the '40s he could be sloppy. (Listen to his live radio broadcast of the Tchaikovsky with Toscanini.) I heard him live twice in New York and the playing was electric, phenomenal even, but not really "clean."
Every artist has his/her moments of concentration lapse, including memory slips. I've heard Serkin stop in the first movement of Brahms 2nd concerto with Ormandy at Carnegie Hall. He got up, walked over to the podium and looked into the score. It happens more often then you might think and with the greats. Rubenstein wandered around in the G minor Ballad before getting back on track; Van Cliburn could miss (listen to his prize-winning performances in Moscow), and many others. Stuff happens, but I wager not from lack of trying of from being ill-prepared.
I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...
Yes. The answer to his question is, "a lot."
But few consider it "cheating."
BTW: How about when we 'trade' notes between the hands -- like, playing a note with one hand that's "supposed to be" (or at least looks like it's supposed to be) played by the other? Is that part of what you're wondering?
These things aren't cheating.
But here's something that maybe is.
Mozart's Sonata in D major for 2 pianos has a part in the last movement where the players take turns playing a little passage that has a pretty tricky L.H. part. It's hard because of how the black notes lay out -- it's difficult or impossible to find a fingering that really works well. A few years ago I saw a famous duo play it with apparent ease. Since I knew them, I rapped a little bit with them afterwards, and asked how they did it. The answer: "We didn't." They split up the passage between them -- instead of each playing it in turn, they played together both times, one person playing just the R.H. part, and the other playing the L.H. part but using 2 hands for it. One of the players said they could have learned how to play it as written, "But why bother?" The other player had this 'look' and clearly wasn't too happy that the other one had confessed.
Was that cheating? I think yes. Was the whole thing hilarious? Yes.
(How did I not notice how they were playing it? I guess I don't always see too good.)
Well, my view is perhaps slightly different here. The score tells us what the music sounds like, not what it feels like in our hands. I once read an article by Tovey on the Hammerklavier, which he described as "craggy" and difficult and it should sound that way. Well, fine then. I say I'm going to find an easy way to make it sound craggy and difficult.
I would rather call it being human, not cheating. Horowitz, especially later in life, missed quite a bit. But even in the '40s he could be sloppy.... Every artist has his/her moments of concentration lapse, including memory slips....
Neil: It looks like you might have misunderstood the OP -- it's not about slips and misses, but intentional things.
Yes I was referring to intentional changes of notes to make it easier.
Yes. Although I'd put it differently. Especially when it comes to someone like Horowitz, it wasn't for it to be easier, but more effective.
But maybe that's just quibbling about words.
In Scriabin's late sonatas, Horowitz made changes like this all over the place. And therefore so do I. And in the 9th sonata, I saw a guy on youtube (someone not known) doing a neat "trade" of L.H. and R.H. in a particular passage, which made it possible to do a better job of the flow and dynamics, which I don't think I ever would have thought of. I immediately adopted it -- and thanked him for it on the video.
Yes I was referring to intentional changes of notes to make it easier.
Ah. Well, in that case here's what I think. Most of the composers who wrote great piano music were pianists themselves, great or otherwise. They wrote the types of things that fit their own hands. They even changed things, reportedly (especially Beethoven), in their own performances. Does that give us mere mortals leave to do the same? No. We play from the score, rearranging as necessary to make the score fit our own (very capable) hands, but not leaving out notes deliberately. (The Mozart duo sonata example, it seems to me, is permissible if all of the indicated notes were played, albeit redivided.)
Here's my exemption: Leaving out doublings in large chords as necessary for smallish hands (mine for example) or other temporary, unhealthy stretches would be permissible in order to avoid injury. Better to discretely omit something and be able to play another day. Luckily, this is almost never necessary for me since I learned how to move. However, wholesale abandonment of octave passages, for example, simply because they require work is not acceptable. I don't know of artists deliberately doing the latter, though I did hear a case of the disappearing LH octaves in the Liszt sonata by a high profile artist in New York. My assumption was that he experienced what I call a temporary loss of nerve or temporary insanity. (I'm quite sure he really can do the octaves.)
So, I guess the simple answer is that I don't think serious artists deliberately distort the music in order to make it easier to play.
Yes I was referring to intentional changes of notes to make it easier.
Ah. Well, in that case here's what I think. Most of the composers who wrote great piano music were pianists themselves, great or otherwise. They wrote the types of things that fit their own hands. They even changed things, reportedly (especially Beethoven), in their own performances. Does that give us mere mortals leave to do the same? No. We play from the score, rearranging as necessary to make the score fit our own (very capable) hands, but not leaving out notes deliberately. (The Mozart duo sonata example, it seems to me, is permissible if all of the indicated notes were played, albeit redivided.)
Here's my exemption: Leaving out doublings in large chords as necessary for smallish hands (mine for example) or other temporary, unhealthy stretches would be permissible in order to avoid injury. Better to discretely omit something and be able to play another day. However, wholesale abandonment of octave passages, for example, simply because they require work is not acceptable. I don't know of artists deliberately doing the latter, though I did hear a case of the disappearing LH octaves in the Liszt sonata by a high profile artist in New York. My assumption was that he experienced what I call a temporary loss of nerve or temporary insanity. (I'm quite sure he really can do the octaves.)
So, I guess the simple answer is that I don't think serious artists deliberately distort the music in order to make it easier to play.
Well I'm talking about within reason...If there's a passage that omitting a note or two will make it more do-able for a pianist and is unnoticeable by an audience, then what's the problem? To a reasonable extent, of course.
Working On-
Deux Arabesques, Debussy
On Queue-
Danse Russe from Petroushka, Stravinsky Toccata, Ravel
I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...
Do you know of any specific pieces where he did that? I remember Horowitz mentioning that he sometimes drops the thumbs in octave passages, but that he does it in such a way that the ear wouldn't perceive the dropped notes.
The attitude of Horowitz (and many other pianists) seems to be that if you can make a passage sound better by rearranging or possibly dropping some notes, then that is desirable. It's about maximum effect with minimum effort. Beethoven's philosophy appears to have been the reverse, as there are three-note passages in some of his sonatas where he notates the bottom two notes with the L.H. and the top one with the R.H. Those passages are ten times easier if you simply play the top two notes with the R.H.
Recent Repertoire: Liszt: Concerto #1 in Eb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dY9Qw8Z7ao Bach: Partita #2 in c minor Beethoven: Sonata #23 in f minor, Opus 57 ("Appassionata") Chopin: Etudes Opus 25 #6,9,10,11,12 Prokofiev: Sonata #3 in a minor Suggestion diabolique
I know I've heard Horowitz drop thumbs in long octave passages...
Do you know of any specific pieces where he did that? I remember Horowitz mentioning that he sometimes drops the thumbs in octave passages, but that he does it in such a way that the ear wouldn't perceive the dropped notes.
The attitude of Horowitz (and many other pianists) seems to be that if you can make a passage sound better by rearranging or possibly dropping some notes, then that is desirable. It's about maximum effect with minimum effort. Beethoven's philosophy appears to have been the reverse, as there are three-note passages in some of his sonatas where he notates the bottom two notes with the L.H. and the top one with the R.H. Those passages are ten times easier if you simply play the top two notes with the R.H.
Re Beethoven: That's exactly right.
Re Horowitz: I'm having trouble imagining how deliberately playing an "octave" without the thumb would be easier. I've heard H. miss a lot of octaves, but not for wont of trying. Maybe H. was talking about putting more weight into the top note and the thumb occasionally not sounding?
Yes I was referring to intentional changes of notes to make it easier.
Ah. Well, in that case here's what I think. Most of the composers who wrote great piano music were pianists themselves, great or otherwise. They wrote the types of things that fit their own hands. They even changed things, reportedly (especially Beethoven), in their own performances. Does that give us mere mortals leave to do the same? No. We play from the score, rearranging as necessary to make the score fit our own (very capable) hands, but not leaving out notes deliberately. (The Mozart duo sonata example, it seems to me, is permissible if all of the indicated notes were played, albeit redivided.)
Here's my exemption: Leaving out doublings in large chords as necessary for smallish hands (mine for example) or other temporary, unhealthy stretches would be permissible in order to avoid injury. Better to discretely omit something and be able to play another day. However, wholesale abandonment of octave passages, for example, simply because they require work is not acceptable. I don't know of artists deliberately doing the latter, though I did hear a case of the disappearing LH octaves in the Liszt sonata by a high profile artist in New York. My assumption was that he experienced what I call a temporary loss of nerve or temporary insanity. (I'm quite sure he really can do the octaves.)
So, I guess the simple answer is that I don't think serious artists deliberately distort the music in order to make it easier to play.
Well I'm talking about within reason...If there's a passage that omitting a note or two will make it more do-able for a pianist and is unnoticeable by an audience, then what's the problem? To a reasonable extent, of course.
Pros cheat the notes all the time, but they never cheat the music.
(And I often think students do the opposite - they cheat the music for fear of cheating the notes.)
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)
Pros cheat the notes all the time, but they never cheat the music.
(And I often think students do the opposite - they cheat the music for fear of cheating the notes.)
Perfect!
I sometimes think the latter about posts that I see on our forums, most recently here.
What I suggested there would be called "cheating" by some. To me, it's cheating the music if you screw up the flow and tempo in order to get all the notes as written. IMO it's a misunderstanding not just of the music, but also of what composers are doing.
