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#1698032 - 06/19/11 10:57 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: Saul]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Saul: It would be better if you did things like this without going negative on something, but maybe you can't help it. Do you really need to diss Liszt like that? Couldn't you make your points without it? Especially since Liszt isn't the subject here, not even close.

I don't love Liszt as much as many people here either, but what you're saying is even giving me the willies. ha
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1698050 - 06/19/11 11:31 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Skorpius Offline
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Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 751
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Hmm. I don't think it's as much about "virtuosic" music vs. "slow and lyrical" music, or even fast playing vs. slow playing. Because, I don't believe faster = less musical and slower = more musical.

I think it's more about the performer playing only for themselves instead of caring about the composer and the (overwhelming?) desire to be true to music and the proper style/taste for whatever music is being played. And I feel this care should be more (MUCH more) than the desire to win competitions, get lots of performance opportunities, gain a big reputation, make money, etc... It's MUSIC people, not some way to promote yourself! A very fine art that you enjoy because of how amazing it is (and because I personally believe it is a gift from God, one of the very best things he blessed mankind with).

But whatever you believe, you should NOT believe music is just a way to glorify yourself.


Exactly! People need to start getting their priorities of music straight. I play first, for God and for myself. I play second for an audience and judges.
_________________________
Working On-

Deux Arabesques, Debussy


On Queue-

Danse Russe from Petroushka, Stravinsky
Toccata, Ravel





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#1698083 - 06/19/11 12:33 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: Skorpius]
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1489
Originally Posted By: Skorpius
I had an interesting conversation with my teacher today. He told me that when he studied with Dame Myra Hess, she told him that she felt that virtuosos of the time, namely Horowitz, had ruined two generations of potential musicians because many tried too hard to be flashy and virtuostic like him...what is your opinion? Has "showing off" become a goal for many rather than making music?


I don't particularly agree. First of all, the trend of being "flashy and virtuostic" is one that existed far before Horowitz (dating back to to Liszt and Pagannini). Then there were those who proudly and starkly had a self-awareness of themselves NOT being like Horowitz (Arrau, Serkin, Schiff, Gould, Rubinstein, Fleisher are a few examples).

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#1698090 - 06/19/11 12:52 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: Skorpius]
Opus_Maximus Offline
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Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1489
One thing I'll add is that I've never understood why so many people automatically equate fast and loud playing with shallowness and superficiality, and slow and meditative playing with depth and musicianship..

..."musicality"- as I define it - is playing that best communicates the emotions and meanings inherent in the music being played. Let us say two pianists are playing the Chopin 4th Ballade - one plays the coda not too fast, with careful attention to balance and voicing, not letting anything get out of control. The other pianist gets worked up into a wild frenzy of passion, takes an extraordinary tempo, and there is a bit of banging and rushing, and a sense of being "on edge". For me, it is paradoxically the second pianist who is the more "musical" one, as his playing is closer to the essence of what that coda is about.

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#1698107 - 06/19/11 01:39 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: polyphasicpianist]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: polyphasicpianist
Does anyone else find this interesting: Hess criticises Horowitz and his contemporaries of mechanical performance; and now, to criticise the current generation of virtuosi of mechanical performance, we use Horowitz as an example of what is not mechanical.


Skorpius' paraphrase of his teacher paraphrasing Myra Hess doesn't, by my reading, accuse Horowitz of mechanical performance.

I understand it to mean that many pianists, "two generations" of them, were impressed by Horowitz's virtuostity and served of it as a model but did not understand the profound musicality that accompanied the virtuosity and perhaps even preceeded it and engendered it.

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#1698126 - 06/19/11 02:18 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: Opus_Maximus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Opus_Maximus
....Let us say two pianists are playing the Chopin 4th Ballade - one plays the coda not too fast, with careful attention to balance and voicing, not letting anything get out of control. The other pianist gets worked up into a wild frenzy of passion, takes an extraordinary tempo, and there is a bit of banging and rushing, and a sense of being "on edge". For me, it is paradoxically the second pianist who is the more "musical" one, as his playing is closer to the essence of what that coda is about.

You bet "paradoxically." ha
That was a surprise ending to what you were saying.

Of course it's a matter of degree. I'm sure there's a level of "banging and rushing" beyond which you'd think the first pianist was being more musical....

Originally Posted By: landorrano
Skorpius' paraphrase of his teacher paraphrasing Myra Hess doesn't, by my reading, accuse Horowitz of mechanical performance...

You're right!
I sort of misread it, and others may have also.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1698454 - 06/20/11 03:03 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: Orange Soda King]
LaReginadellaNotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 390
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
I think it's more about the performer playing only for themselves instead of caring about the composer and the (overwhelming?) desire to be true to music and the proper style/taste for whatever music is being played. And I feel this care should be more (MUCH more) than the desire to win competitions, get lots of performance opportunities, gain a big reputation, make money, etc... It's MUSIC people, not some way to promote yourself! A very fine art that you enjoy because of how amazing it is (and because I personally believe it is a gift from God, one of the very best things he blessed mankind with).

But whatever you believe, you should NOT believe music is just a way to glorify yourself.

I don't see why you can't have both: a desire to glorify yourself and a profound ambition to serve the music. After all, if you use your technique at the service of your musical ideas, your playing will be much more captivating and you should be able to achieve an even greater level of fame and recognition. If Horowitz had played in a mindless, mechanical fashion- as many of his imitators do- then he would never have become as famous and idolized as he is.

I think that if musicians are totally honest with ourselves, the desire to be perceived as a great, elite person is what spurs us to work toward musical mastery. People saw how much excitement Horowitz could generate and how so many people idolized him. Thus, they wanted to imitate him in hopes of achieving the same level of prestige.

As others have mentioned, I think it's clear that it is Horowitz's imitators who have leaned toward shallow virtuosity, not Horowitz himself. Even in his earliest years, Horowitz always had a keen musical mind, and his playing never ignored the expressive qualities of the music. It isn't Horowitz's fault that the pianists imitating him only tried to reproduce the most bombastic aspects of his style. As we all realize, Horowitz's musical personality was much more complex than that.


Edited by LaReginadellaNotte (06/20/11 03:04 AM)

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#1698465 - 06/20/11 04:01 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte

I think that if musicians are totally honest with ourselves, the desire to be perceived as a great, elite person is what spurs us to work toward musical mastery.


Excuse me, that is not how one becomes a great musician, that is how one becomes a patheic human being.

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#1698470 - 06/20/11 04:30 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: landorrano]
wuxia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 106
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Precisely. They key factor of becoming a great musician without setting it as a goal is to be humble in the whole spectrum of the human endeavour. Even Bach said it : 'The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.'. Being a great, elite person sounds immature and rather ridiculous compared to just the sheer brilliance of the succession of notes themselves in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeY5T5WdUBE#t=4m55s . What I'm trying to say is not 'Be humble and you'll be a great musician', what I'm trying to say is that nobody knows why music appeals so much to human beings and just being a small part of it already enobles you.
_________________________
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#1698471 - 06/20/11 04:34 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte

juxtaposing:
If Horowitz had played in a mindless, mechanical fashion- as many of his imitators do- then he would never have become as famous and idolized as he is.

with

I think that if musicians are totally honest with ourselves, the desire to be perceived as a great, elite person is what spurs us to work toward musical mastery..


The person who is the musician par excellence is Horowitz. He did not desire to be pereceived as a great elite person. He put his attention to understanding music and playing it well. That coincidentally turned him into a great musician. If you aim toward how others perceive you, then you will miss the boat.

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#1698472 - 06/20/11 04:35 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte



I think that if musicians are totally honest with ourselves, the desire to be perceived as a great, elite person is what spurs us to work toward musical mastery.



Yeah, if you're Lang Lang. Of course, musical mastery is not terminology that can be used to describe his work. Technical mastery? Ok. But musical mastery? Absolutely not.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1698474 - 06/20/11 04:36 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: wuxia]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: wuxia
nobody knows why music appeals so much to human beings and just being a small part of it already enobles you.



Now that is nicely said.

And welcome Wuxia to the forum.


Edited by landorrano (06/20/11 04:38 AM)

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#1698481 - 06/20/11 05:11 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: landorrano]
wuxia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 106
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: wuxia
nobody knows why music appeals so much to human beings and just being a small part of it already enobles you.



Now that is nicely said.

And welcome Wuxia to the forum.


Thank you kind sir =]
_________________________
https://soundcloud.com/pizhama

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#1698494 - 06/20/11 06:22 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: Skorpius]
izaldu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1250
Loc:
I m down with landorrano and Wuxia

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#1698703 - 06/20/11 02:59 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: keystring]
LaReginadellaNotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 390
Originally Posted By: keystring
The person who is the musician par excellence is Horowitz. He did not desire to be pereceived as a great elite person. He put his attention to understanding music and playing it well. That coincidentally turned him into a great musician. If you aim toward how others perceive you, then you will miss the boat.

What makes you think that Horowitz didn't want to be perceived as a great, elite person? His biographies say that he was always very status-conscious (which may explain why he wanted to be the son-in-law of Toscanini) and was concerned with being perceived as the greatest, most famous pianist who always played to sold-out halls. Since Horowitz might despair over even the slightest criticism, it seems like he was extremely concerned with how people perceived him.

It's my understanding that the two desires go hand in hand. If you are obsessed with obtaining prestige through music, then you will be motivated to put forth the utmost effort to develop the highest level of musical artistry- as Horowitz did.

Wuxia, I think it's important to remember that Bach was a devout Christian. If a person feels very strongly about Christianity, it isn't surprising that he or she would connect music to the glory of God.

Stores, Lang Lang's problem is that he is either unwilling or unable to develop the discipline needed for true musical mastery. He could obtain an even greater level of fame if he learned to play at Horowitz's level of artistry.

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#1698706 - 06/20/11 03:03 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte


Stores, Lang Lang's problem is that he is either unwilling or unable to develop the discipline needed for true musical mastery. He could obtain an even greater level of fame if he learned to play at Horowitz's level of artistry.


No, Lang's problem is that he only cares about Lang, which is easy to believe, since he has his head stuck up his ass.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1698861 - 06/20/11 07:17 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte
His biographies say that he was always very status-conscious (which may explain why he wanted to be the son-in-law of Toscanini) and was concerned with being perceived as the greatest, most famous pianist who always played to sold-out halls.


But you are mixing things up. I don't really know anything about Horowitz, but I am sure that if you have the idea that it is this "obsession with obtaining prestige" that led him or anyone else to become a great musician, you are really off base.

You interpret his artistic accomplishment as a weapon against the world. But we are talking about a musician, not Robocop.

Be a little tender. Great artists are only human and they are full of contradictions, no less than the rest of us. They can have their weaknesses, their silly traits of character, they might be filled with fears of all sorts, even hysterical before their own greatest qualities.



Edited by landorrano (06/20/11 07:18 PM)

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#1699011 - 06/20/11 11:22 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: landorrano]
LaReginadellaNotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 390
Originally Posted By: landorrano

But you are mixing things up. I don't really know anything about Horowitz, but I am sure that if you have the idea that it is this "obsession with obtaining prestige" that led him or anyone else to become a great musician, you are really off base.

What makes you think that I am offbase? It appears that Horowitz was obsessed with prestige, as the anecdotes that I cited suggest. If that was the case, then why it is it so far-fetched to say that the desire for prestige is what motivated Horowitz to become the greatest pianist?

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#1699126 - 06/21/11 03:05 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: stores]
BadOrange Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 368
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte



I think that if musicians are totally honest with ourselves, the desire to be perceived as a great, elite person is what spurs us to work toward musical mastery.



Yeah, if you're Lang Lang. Of course, musical mastery is not terminology that can be used to describe his work. Technical mastery? Ok. But musical mastery? Absolutely not.


he is what 29 ? I think he is doing ok and what ever musicality you think he lacks, that will come with maturity.

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#1699141 - 06/21/11 03:45 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: BadOrange]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: BadOrange
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte



I think that if musicians are totally honest with ourselves, the desire to be perceived as a great, elite person is what spurs us to work toward musical mastery.



Yeah, if you're Lang Lang. Of course, musical mastery is not terminology that can be used to describe his work. Technical mastery? Ok. But musical mastery? Absolutely not.


he is what 29 ? I think he is doing ok and what ever musicality you think he lacks, that will come with maturity.


He sucks. Period.

By the way, you never did answer my question elsewhere which was...who did you study with at Curtis?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1699152 - 06/21/11 04:20 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte

What makes you think that I am offbase?


In guise of an answer, let me ask you: what drives you ? Why do you play music ?

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#1699156 - 06/21/11 04:31 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: Skorpius]
BadOrange Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 368
Loc: Banned
I think the reason I didn't answer quite clear but if I must spell it out, I guess I will spell it out.

The fact that I admitted to forging a document and the rather idiotic notion of providing someone that has already displayed a rather opulent dislike and a somewhat misplaced interest in the personal life of someone which they have no relation either personal or business, as far as we know. which to be honest is somewhat disturbing. well i think that is perhaps a good reason.

There is a thread in the teacher's corner where I criticize the approach most teachers including the ones I had the pleasure of having.

Now you seemed to play, play being the operant word , detective rather well in that first attempt to pry answer so perhaps Sherlock can deduce some reasons why I wouldn't divulge that information to you. What sort of idiot would purposefully give information that can only serve a negative purpose.

Now let me reciprocate as this sluthing seems quite fun. Now from my angle, I see a bitter old pianist who never quite attained any level of significance, the kawaii was as give away , who has a chip on his/her shoulder where he / she feels the need to insult any pianist they feel is not perfect or to their liking. A professional would not judge another musician in such childish and meaningless ways such as you did. "He just sucks" . However those types of asseseements are quite typical of the annoying teenager or in your case, the jaded 50 year old that can't get passed the notion that they never made it. I can honestly see why thinking everyone is awful would actually make you feel better.

Now i do apologize if I am way off as I probably don't spend as much time as you trying to assure myself that everyone else is worse which I imagine requires a fair amount of deduction imagination and Guinness book worthy pessimism. What I can say is that your negativity and somewhat weird interest in others for reasons I'm sure we can agree are not in good faith really do come across as the actions of a failed unhappy person that projects this awful attitude unto others any chance they get. Again I could be wrong. Its just hard to see things any other way when you have been around successful musicians, conductors, composers. They don't seem to share your distasteful pessimism. So I can only assume that since you seem to act in a way that is completely foreign to what most successful people exude, well what else am I to conclude. So there you go.

But regardless of your success or lack there of, do you not find it somewhat sad that someone your age, almost 50, has this yearning to invent drama for reasons , i just don't get. What could you possibly gain even if all your ill conceived delusions where true, What if I was actually a drummer who for some reason decided to join a piano forum then when prompted regarding what school they went to , researched a good school to impress people and say Curtis. Now if I was lying, how hard would it be for me to just google the school and get a name of a teacher ? So your entire endeavour just seems entirely pointless silly and worst of all sad. You sad little person.

And to end this ,

Lang Lang in your words might just suck but he isn't playing a shitty upright Kawai, he sure as heck isn't approaching his 50's attacking behind a screen other musicians. And while you are just being an out right jerk , he is getting paid to do what he loves with some of the greatest musicians on earth.

I think his answer to your criticism would be , I may suck but you can suck it.


Edited by BadOrange (06/21/11 04:42 AM)

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#1699162 - 06/21/11 05:14 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: BadOrange]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Orange: Regardless of what anybody thinks of anybody, they need to find other ways to say it than you just did, or else they won't be here long. Nor on any other decent internet forum, or probably anywhere else either.


(Sheesh, that's twice on one page that I've given "advice".....)
We do what we can.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1699164 - 06/21/11 05:17 AM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
wuxia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 106
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte
Originally Posted By: keystring
The person who is the musician par excellence is Horowitz. He did not desire to be pereceived as a great elite person. He put his attention to understanding music and playing it well. That coincidentally turned him into a great musician. If you aim toward how others perceive you, then you will miss the boat.

What makes you think that Horowitz didn't want to be perceived as a great, elite person? His biographies say that he was always very status-conscious (which may explain why he wanted to be the son-in-law of Toscanini) and was concerned with being perceived as the greatest, most famous pianist who always played to sold-out halls. Since Horowitz might despair over even the slightest criticism, it seems like he was extremely concerned with how people perceived him.

It's my understanding that the two desires go hand in hand. If you are obsessed with obtaining prestige through music, then you will be motivated to put forth the utmost effort to develop the highest level of musical artistry- as Horowitz did.

Wuxia, I think it's important to remember that Bach was a devout Christian. If a person feels very strongly about Christianity, it isn't surprising that he or she would connect music to the glory of God.

Stores, Lang Lang's problem is that he is either unwilling or unable to develop the discipline needed for true musical mastery. He could obtain an even greater level of fame if he learned to play at Horowitz's level of artistry.


I referred to Bach being a devout Christian as an illustration of what a hoax is to be a great and elite person. The more meaningful words in the quote are in the end 'refreshment of the soul'. I think the semantic translation would be that Bach accepts himself as a part of something greater than himself.
Therefore he isn't occupating an environment which he can conquer as opposed to Horowitz.

It's fair to say though that we can't really connect to those two individuals directly and therefore our speculation on what are the reasons behind their music stays just a speculation. The only impression I've had from Horowitz is from the documentary filmed at his home. From the little he said I got the notion that he's a bit egocentric and felt as a bit of an exile.

Just to clarify, I'm not a Christian of any sort and I'm not the one that brought up Horowitz in the first place, I just continued the line of thought connected to him. My main point is that in the world of the supposedly egocentric musician who pursues music just for the sake of being a great, elite person the highest bar is easily attainable compared to the world of the other individual who has already accepted that he's smaller than the whole and therefore there is no highest bar, there's only contribution and his nobleness isn't judged by the music itself but by his being.
_________________________
https://soundcloud.com/pizhama

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#1699387 - 06/21/11 02:19 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: landorrano]
LaReginadellaNotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 390
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte

What makes you think that I am offbase?


In guise of an answer, let me ask you: what drives you ? Why do you play music ?

My interest in music has always been predicated on the prospect of being the greatest in the world. I heard how much excitement Horowitz could generate and saw how admired he was, and as a result, I was interested in trying to do something similar.

Wuxia, are you saying that Horowitz had a very different goal than Bach? From my point of view, Horowitz's alleged motivation (to have people perceive him as a great, elite person) makes much more sense than playing for the sake of some nebulous higher power.

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#1699408 - 06/21/11 03:28 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte

My interest in music has always been predicated on the prospect of being the greatest in the world.



Excellent. So, how's it going .. or has Sarastro foiled your quest ?

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#1699415 - 06/21/11 03:42 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: landorrano]
LaReginadellaNotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 390
The experiences I've had suggest that I may be on the right track. Are you saying that one shouldn't want to be the greatest? Is there anything wrong with such an ambition, especially if Horowitz himself thought along those lines?

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#1699492 - 06/21/11 06:16 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: LaReginadellaNotte
The experiences I've had suggest that I may be on the right track.


Excellent, keep it up then.

And to think that I knew you when you wre just a schlep on an internet forum.

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#1699497 - 06/21/11 06:22 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: BadOrange]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: BadOrange
I think the reason I didn't answer quite clear but if I must spell it out, I guess I will spell it out.

The fact that I admitted to forging a document and the rather idiotic notion of providing someone that has already displayed a rather opulent dislike and a somewhat misplaced interest in the personal life of someone which they have no relation either personal or business, as far as we know. which to be honest is somewhat disturbing. well i think that is perhaps a good reason.

There is a thread in the teacher's corner where I criticize the approach most teachers including the ones I had the pleasure of having.

Now you seemed to play, play being the operant word , detective rather well in that first attempt to pry answer so perhaps Sherlock can deduce some reasons why I wouldn't divulge that information to you. What sort of idiot would purposefully give information that can only serve a negative purpose.

Now let me reciprocate as this sluthing seems quite fun. Now from my angle, I see a bitter old pianist who never quite attained any level of significance, the kawaii was as give away , who has a chip on his/her shoulder where he / she feels the need to insult any pianist they feel is not perfect or to their liking. A professional would not judge another musician in such childish and meaningless ways such as you did. "He just sucks" . However those types of asseseements are quite typical of the annoying teenager or in your case, the jaded 50 year old that can't get passed the notion that they never made it. I can honestly see why thinking everyone is awful would actually make you feel better.

Now i do apologize if I am way off as I probably don't spend as much time as you trying to assure myself that everyone else is worse which I imagine requires a fair amount of deduction imagination and Guinness book worthy pessimism. What I can say is that your negativity and somewhat weird interest in others for reasons I'm sure we can agree are not in good faith really do come across as the actions of a failed unhappy person that projects this awful attitude unto others any chance they get. Again I could be wrong. Its just hard to see things any other way when you have been around successful musicians, conductors, composers. They don't seem to share your distasteful pessimism. So I can only assume that since you seem to act in a way that is completely foreign to what most successful people exude, well what else am I to conclude. So there you go.

But regardless of your success or lack there of, do you not find it somewhat sad that someone your age, almost 50, has this yearning to invent drama for reasons , i just don't get. What could you possibly gain even if all your ill conceived delusions where true, What if I was actually a drummer who for some reason decided to join a piano forum then when prompted regarding what school they went to , researched a good school to impress people and say Curtis. Now if I was lying, how hard would it be for me to just google the school and get a name of a teacher ? So your entire endeavour just seems entirely pointless silly and worst of all sad. You sad little person.

And to end this ,

Lang Lang in your words might just suck but he isn't playing a shitty upright Kawai, he sure as heck isn't approaching his 50's attacking behind a screen other musicians. And while you are just being an out right jerk , he is getting paid to do what he loves with some of the greatest musicians on earth.

I think his answer to your criticism would be , I may suck but you can suck it.


Quite honestly, I could care less what you think of me, fruitboy. I simply asked with whom you studied while at Curtis, but I'm going to now assume (which I already more or less had) that I was correct regarding the fact that your time at Curtis was a complete fabrication (as was your nice little story about forged letters, etc., which I could care less about). If I'm wrong then do come forward and prove it. Just give me the dates you attended Curtis and your teacher's name. Your secret will be safe with me (at least here). Of course you won't do this, because you cannot.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1699529 - 06/21/11 07:19 PM Re: Has virtuosity overshadowed musicality? [Re: BadOrange]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3787
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: BadOrange
...But regardless of your success or lack there of, do you not find it somewhat sad that someone your age, almost 50, has this yearning to invent drama for reasons...

Bad,

stores certainly doesn't need me to defend him, so I'll just say that this kind of personal attack has no place on these forums. Calling someone clueless, or even an idiot, is one thing. Insulting his piano is something else.

In 67 posts you've sure made an impression. I'm not sure this is the right place for you.

-Jason
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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