Tell us about your piano and musical experience!

The ABF Survey 2011

It's a Google Docs form, which is probably the easiest and quickest and cheapest way to do a survey of a lot of people.

I probably put in too many questions, but only the first one is required

I'll publish a link to responses later, hopefully with some nice charts.

And yes, you can answer the survey more than once, but why would you?

Sam

Hi Sam


Survey was short and sweet and fun. I hope others will participate.

Surveys are pouring in - OK, trickling in. Now you can see some results in some pretty charts:

ABF Survey Summary

Sam

Sam, that is so cool!!!!!

Thanks very much!

Great job, Sam! The graphic display is a really effective way to convey the results.

survey taken

Thanks for doing this Sam. I've completed my survey.

Thanks, Sam. I submitted mine. You are certainly keeping us all organized! This is great!

Thank you Sam for taking the time to do this. The results should be interesting. Add me to the list also.

Thanks, Woody

Sam, this is really great! I am a huge statistics buff myself, and a self-proclaimed Excel guru. I love this.

SPOILER ALERT

At the time of this post,there are only 44 respondents - a fairly significant sample size, but I'd go for 100 before drawing any solid conclusions.

I'm amazed and extremely impressed at the number of "self-taught" and those with "0 years of formal instruction" with any musical instrument. Amazed because I've heard the playing a talent of such people here.

Here is a link, by the way, to the results. I'll be tracking this for awhile:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/viewanalytics?formkey=dDF0a0kwNW90dzFodEtEcFlFc2huUUE6MQ

I think this is great too! Nice to see where people are at. Thanks for posting!

Hi Sam,

Answered the survey

John

Great!

A good idea Sam - have submitted mine too.

Done! Great idea, congratulations.

Done. Interested to see the final results.

This is cool, Sam. What I think is interesting is how many of us restarters have more than 30 years between our piano-playing youth and our re-beganning, as Shiro Kuro would say. Are we cool, or what?

Cathy

Over 60 responses now! There are lots of interesting trends. What surprises me is that, so far, we are about equally divided between adult beginners and re-starters. And most of us are middle aged...

Keep those responses coming!

Sam

Again, I'm amazed at the percentage "self-taught." As I've read in another thread, I prefer the term self-directed since some purists here scoff at the idea of working with no teacher (uh-oh...a controversial can-of-worms thread).

Some conclusions one can draw from this is that many of we "middle-aged" have lots of life commitments, financial obligations, family obligations, and time constraints that prevent us from working with teacher on a consistent basis.

Let's get this survey to 100, so we can discuss the results in further detail.

Done. Brillant idea.

Thank you Sam

Best of all ... I feel young

Thanks Sam!!!

I'm in. But maybe you should add an "over 70" category. Would be interested in how many of us there are. But maybe it doesn't matter, after all ...

Sam, this is really cool!

Looking at the results, I would say at this point, both statistically and scientifically, that a significant majority of adult beginners / beganners / re-beginners are confirmed to be clinically crazy.

Crazy for piano, it appears!

Thanks Sam!! I just did my survey. It made me realize something, which of course I already knew, but don't usually think about much.

I started as an adult, and I have played piano for more than 10 years now, and I have taken lessons almost continuously the entire time. (the except being 4-months at the start of grad school, and during that time I did a lot of "mental music") Anyway, interestingly enough, I started piano in June of 1999, when I got a digital piano. (Although I can't remember the specific date, I have always "celebrated" June as my own person piano-month. I got my upright in June of 2000, too). So I have been playing and taking lessons for 12 years now.

Wow. Just wow. That's either really really cool, or really depressing-- because I should be better than I am by now!

We'll go with "really really cool," I've always been a cup-half-full type. And besides, I have loved everyday of my piano-life the entire time, and, although I definitely get more enjoyment out of playing for others these days (having learned to control my nerves better), I don't think my feelings about piano have changed at all. These days, I am just as excited every time I sit down to play as I was 12 years ago. My love affair with the piano is second only to the love affair I have with my husband!

Anyway....


Although I'm not in the minority as an adult began-er, I think I am in the minority as a lesson-taker and as a long-term lesson-taker. I need to go look at those results again. But that's really interesting to think about... I wonder how my progress would have differed if I hadn't taken lessons the whole time. And, I should mention, I've been a PW member since 2004, which has been and remains without doubt another crucial source of learning for me.

But it's really interesting to think about one's "piano trajectory," as Sam's suvery gives us the chance to do. We can't know how things might have been different if we'd taken a different path, and though we might have ideas about what helped us along the most, we can't really know. The only thing that's for certain is, none of us would be as good as we are today if we weren't still playing the piano today. And in the end, that's all that matters. That we play.

Sam, again, thank you so much for doing the survey! My original post was just a spur of the moment, spontaneous silly thing (and just for the record, I never meant to imply, and don't think I did, that ABF's name be reconsidered. I think this place is perfect. I just wanted to have a grammatical-abomination to describe my own experience!

Anyway, my original post was just inspired by silliness, but I'm so glad it sparked the discussion in the other thread and now this survey. Yay!

P.S. Out of the 81 who've taken the survey so far, only two people (one of them me) have responded that they've taken lessons for more than 10 years as an adult.

Hmmm...

I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.
I am not going to add up that money and see how much I've spent on piano lessons.

Over 80 responses this morning. If you haven't done it yet, don't be left out!

Sam

I'm in and that makes a very symmetrical 88 responses.

Done, thanks for the idea.

It's not directly asked, but you can deduct the number of restarters. I was surprised by the fact that more than a half members are not restarters, as I am.

Fer

I'm amazed at the number of restarters (I thought there were fewer of "us" than 42%), and also the number of those that had other musical training (at the time of this post, roughly a quarter of us). However, I'm amazed but not surprised. I think those with prior musical training are more likely to play intermediate level pieces on piano after just a few months or a year or 2.

It's similar to, say, knowing how to roller-blade and then learning how to ice skate. The principals of rhythm, key signatures, and music theory are still the same regardless of instrument. Those with training are more apt to learn piano quicker. It's not surprising especially after listening to ABF recitals where over half of the pieces are in the intermediate-to-advanced range. (but that's another unknown statistic - just my SWAG).

For the record, I had 5 years of band (percussion) and of course, 3-5 years of lessons as a kid which is why jumping right into intermediate repertoire was fairly seamless. I'm 100% sure as well that hand independence - the thing that true adult beginners seem to struggle with the most - is learned more easily and ingrained in childhood (if you had childhood lessons), making restarting all the more easier.

Another thought....I'd bet there's also a correlation between restarting and then working with no teacher as a grownup. It makes me wonder what percentage of the restarter group is also in the self-taught or working-with-no-teacher group?

Anyway, interesting survey so far. I now have greater insight into "Who is the adult beginner?"

We've had over 100 responses, which is pretty good for a weekend in June. The more people that respond, the more confident we can be that the results are representative of our musical experience.

So what does the survey say? You can look at the results in pretty pictures. Here's my summary of what it looks like with about 100 responses:

Real adult beginners are in the majority, but not by much. A little more than 40% are re-starters.

We're old! A whopping 74% are over 36. 51% are over 46.

We're also fairly new to the piano as adults. 45% have been playing 2 years or less.

A large majority, 65%, have experience with some other instrument.

61% of the re-starters had between 3 and 10 years of experience as a child.

But 60% of the re-starters took a huge break from piano - over 21 years, before starting again.

Here's something interesting - a majority, 55%, are not taking piano lessons now.

For those that have taken lessons or are taking lessons now, most have been doing it for just a few years.

A quarter of us say they have had no education in music theory, harmony, or history.

And 60% of the responders say they have never participated in the ABF recital. Sounds like some outreach may be needed!

I'll leave the survey open - why not? The more responses we got the better the picture we will have.

And I've already thought of some questions I should have asked but didn't, like gender and what playing level you call yourself. Maybe next year...

Sam

Hmmm...the question asked about education in these elememnts separate from instrument lessons. I have never had separare classes, but if I add up the bits that were covered here and there in close to 20 years of lessons over the years, I don't think I'd say I have no education in those areas.

Cool survey, though. It's very interesting to get an idea of what demographic is here.

I've had the opposite. No piano lessons but learned some music theory in Jr. high choir and a music for elementary teachers course in college. There was a little bit of basic technique in that course that may have been the equivalent of a few lessons so I did have a point in the right direction at the beginning.

125 people have taken the ABF Survey. Have you? Don't be left out! Link at the top of this thread.

Sam

just took survey myself. very interesting Sam!

just wanted to add my thanks here for conducting this survey.

Taken!

What leaps off the page for me is that we need to work on encouraging people to participate in the recital!!!

Done.

Good thing it didn't have any questions regarding the variety of types of pieces/composers work that I play.

Thank you, Sam.

Very interesting results. And another motivator for playing the piano... gotta go practicing, not reading the ABF forum

Yes, I am in. Good work Sam!

At the time of this writing, 54% of us have training in "other" musical instruments. I find that interesting.

At the time of this writing, the Adult Beginner/Adult RE-Starter ratio is about 60/40. ..also interesting.

True... but in a half empty/half full sort of way, if we consider the 125 responses to be an estimate of the number of people who look at AB forum fairly consistently, the 55-65 people we get participating in the recitals represents a pretty darned good proportion.

I've always wondered how many regular viewers PW and AB forum attracts... we know it's nowhere near the 59,184 registered members. So, if you're a frequent visitor to AB forum and haven't answered the poll yet, please consider doing so. It would be informative to have a better estimate of how big our little corner of the internet really is.

Here are the instruments with count - guitar is clearly popular. And who's the person who claims guitar hero as an instrument?

30 guitar
10 recorder
9 flute
7 clarinet
6 voice
4 violin
4 trumpet
4 harmonica
3 drums
2 saxophone
2 percussion
2 organ
2 cornet
2 bass
2 accordion
1 vielle
1 tamboura
1 guitar hero
1 cello
1 bass guitar
1 bass clarinet
1 banjo
1 autoharp

Sam

A real lol here!

You have a good point Monica - and imagine how long it would take to listen and give feedback to 125 performances! wow! Yikes! Maybe I should keep quiet

The 59,184 members seems like a huge community but - you're quite right that no where near that number visit regularly, nor do they even participate ! There are literally thousands with no posts ((27,867 in fact). 1161 pages of users with no posts +3)..I got curious as to the exact number.

The nice thing about Sam's poll is that you don't have to be a registered member of PW to participate in it, so we can finally tap into the unknown deep well of unregistered lurkers.

27,867 members with no posts is a lot of lurkers! I wonder why people bother to go to the trouble of creating an account if they're not going to post?

Sam,
Thanks for taking the time and effort in putting together the Survey.
Dot

LOL, me too. I almost choked on my breakfast this morning ...guitar hero...

145 Participants -pretty good turn out!
Anybody else out there who hasn't taken part?

What's a vielle?

There must be something you can't do when you have no account? Can you search without account?

Possibly this:



But more likely this:



Courtesy Wikipedia.

I think that first one is a Hurdy-Gurdy - probably the only keyed string instrument besides the piano. Instead of hammers striking the strings you crank it which rubs a rosin-covered wheel against the strings so they vibrate. You can see the crank and the lighter colored wheel in the photo. The keys are black and white and run alongside what would be the fretboard if there were one. When you press a key it stops the string like a violin to change the pitch. A very odd instrument. All the strings sound all the time, so there are drones.

If you've ever seen the movie "Captain's Courageous" the Spencer Tracy character plays one.

Sam

Whatever it is, it's beautiful!!

The beauty of this survey is that now, we have some data!! Trust me, I will use this data in the future.

I'll say things like:

"Well, jeez, 83% of us are 36 or older!" ....or "50% of us here work without a teacher." ...or "half of us have some training in other instruments."

...and "40% of us have participated in ABF recital."

I'm sure you will !

Of course, you will have to preface all those remarks with: based on responses to the survey. . . .

Because who knows how many of us didn't reply?

Thanks for the response. Indeed wikipedia says it's a thick violin like that second photo (though violins have 4 strings in my book ) And that later it became used to refer to the hurdy gurdy. Interesting

At the risk of going slightly OT, I don't think the mysterious instruments is this:

Baseball Bat Violin

I had the pleasure of going to the game last Sunday and seeing him play the (US) National Anthem on it. It worked pretty well too.

Not necessarily. In statistics-speak, N=150, which I think is a sufficient enough sample size to represent "what's typical" here in the ABF.

It's the Central Limit Theorem at work here.

you're over my head now m'dear!

I'm the person who plays the vielle, and it looks like the second of the pictures ShiroKuro posted...although mine looks a lot less fancy!

Brilliant!

casinitaly, the Central Limit Theorem basically says that the accuracy of a randomly sampled poll depends on the number of respondents only, and does not depend at all on the total size of the whole population.

So whether there are 590 or 59,000 members of PW, it doesn't matter. Once you've got 150 replies to the poll, you've got a good level of accuracy. Assuming of course that the responders are representative of the whole group (that is, equivalent to randomly chosen).

I think this is one of the most brilliant theorems in all of statistics.

I can get my head around that. Thank you

Great!

A quick addendum: the closer the results are to a 50-50 split, the more replies you need for accuracy. But it still doesn't matter if there are 590 or 59,000 in the total population.

I quite agree, but the methodologist in me is compelled to point out that the words randomly sampled are absolutely critical here. The extent to which one can generalize from a sample to the population depends completely on how it was sampled. And while, as PianoStudent88 points out, a random sample of 150 people would be more than enough to be representative of AB forum as a whole, the fact remains that these poll results are from a self-selected sample. As such, we can generalize only to the population of AB forum viewers who choose to answer polls.

In other words, Sam's data are an interesting snapshot of the 150-odd folks who took the time and effort to respond to the survey, but we can't assume they tell us anything about the people who didn't.

There are also these problems with this simple poll:

- you can take it multiple times
- anyone can take it if they can find the link

So it's a fun poll, and my gut feeling is that it's pretty representative of us, but it can't stand up to rigorous scrutiny.

And now that I have revealed those flaws, please don't send the link to the poll to all your facebook friends that have never been to the ABF forum!

Sam

My gut feel is that most of the participants were "regulars" - like myself, Monica, cas, etc. and hence a fairly accurate snapshot of the ABF. I wonder then if anyone from the other forums (like Pianist corner) came in a also filled out the survey.

Sam, I'd suggest to re-open a fresh new poll and see if we can get another 150 "fresh" replies. We all need to use the honor system so don't "retake" the new poll.

I think this survey was fine for our informal purposes. I would suggest waiting for this topic to disappear way down the list of topics before starting another one - maybe next year. We could come up with better questions too.

Sam

A better way to get a random sample is to pick random 150 persons from the database and ask them to reply? Yet even then you will have only those that reply. And given that half of the people here never have posted anything the percentage of replies might be very small indeed

I find I'm more interested in the replies of those who do come and post here regularly enough to have spotted the poll. So the 150 self-selected at-least-semi regulars who replied are exactly the people I want to know about.

I will look forward to next year's poll. I answered one thing wrong, I realized afterwards, but I won't cheat and fill it out again . I said I only knew theory from a college course, but I forgot I self-taught myself a lot of theory from Edly's Music Theory for Practical People. Edly's is what made the three forms of minor scale make sense, and the relation between major and minor scales and other modes. The college course taught me all I know about tonal analysis, up through secondary dominants. Despite my years in band and chorus, I never learned any theory there. (Well, I guess I learned to read high treble leger lines from playing flute, but the rest of reading music I taught myself, and when I think of music theory, I usually think of the parts beyond simply reading the notes on the page.)

Hmmm...let me make one more quick observation that I just noticed this morning. During normal waking hours, there are usually 130-160 people actually viewing (or active) in the ABF. Thus it makes sense that the number of respondents falls right in this range.

Normal waking hours for. . .Who? The continental U.S.? Morning people? Night people? People who aren't on during working hours? We may be largely U.S. members, but it seems to me the rest of the mix is pretty wide. One of the people I PM on the most is almost never on when I am - besides the time difference, she's a morning person and I'm a night person. And I'm on more during my working day more than she is.

So I'm not sure there's a correlation. Maybe. But not sure.

Cathy

I have to agree with Cathy - Being one of those who is GMT+1, my "normal waking hours" are wildly different than quite a few members here, but I also see that when I'm up and on line at 6 or 7 am (yes, that can happen, not that often, but it does)..... there are still a lot of American/Canadian night owls on-line.

In our next survey maybe we can include a question on which time zone members are from!

Yes, and while I'm thinking about it, because I will forget before we decide to do the next survey, here are some more questions to consider:

- time zone
- hours of practice daily
- electronic or acoustic?
- gender
- playing level self-assessment
- favorite genre
- can you play by ear?

Any others?

Sam

Funny, but on my way home during my lunch break 12:00PM CST US, I predicted that there'd be people poking holes on this post from this morning 7AM CST US because I know this is a global forum and "normal waking hours" don't apply to everyone. Anyway.... At this hour, 12:30PM CST US, there are currently 180 members online!

Now...i've been on this forum practically all hours of the day and night (occassional insomniac), and noticed during the wee hours of the night, the active members usually slips to below 100.

I guess the original intent of my post --- isn't it cool that the number of respondents roughly equals those who are online during "peak hours".... this confirms the "central limit theorem" and also confirms Monica's assertion that respondents are more-than-likely regular and active members of the ABF.

Sam, a re-survey would be great.

I don't see any confirmation of the central limit theorem. (Nor disconfirmation either, of course.)

I thought as we were coming up to 1 year since we did this, it might be fun to do another one.
(Said she, who only has to fill in the answers and not do anything else )

Ideas for new questions=
Did you participate in the last survey?
How many recitals (ABF) have you played in?
Have you played in for a public
--- if yes: live recitals ?
house parties?
nursing homes?
volunteer gigs?
paying gigs?

oh, and as I have just re-read the part where anyone can do the survey - maybe ask :

Are you a member of PianoWorld?

Thanks for reminding me! I actually have a survey sort of ready to go that I added some questions to - I'll get it updated.

Any other questions that should be included?

Sam

Here are a couple of suggestions for the poll:

--I'd be interested in what the responder's current number of posts is. Zero posts = lurker; 10,000 = long-timer with a lot to say. At any rate, one can make some inferences from the number of posts.

--If the responder takes lessons, the cost per 30 minutes. (If they take longer lessons, do the conversion to cost/30 min. Use $ if you know it, otherwise your local currency and someone can do the conversion.)

Whether the person mostly plays on a digital or an acoustic piano.